First post: Lionel 2034 flying off track??

In my opinion, forget the 1025. Leave it in the box for looks. Use the 1033 like you said, using the diodes is an invitation for disaster. Both for the child and the house.

Part of the joy of owning your first train is gaining the knowledge that it can also be used as a missile.  This is why you do not give $1000 engines to new comers.  Let him learn and grow into a better train set.

Some may counsel against it, but you might try a dc transformer.  My experience has been that postwar 027 locomotives can be difficult to Smoothly control on ac power.

Get rid of those neck-snapping O-27 curves. The train will run and look better with O-42. Those should be available on eBay.

You don’t mention the grandson age but it’s never early to learn how to run the train. Leave the setup on the floor till he realizes the correct maximum speed before running off the rails. We did the same thing when we were kids. 

Thanks for the advices.

clarence commented diodes were an invitation to disaster—would like to know the reasoning behind this?   I researched the use of diodes to drop voltage on this forum and others and found this solution many places.  All noted they would get warm.  This is warmer than I expected.  None mentioned dangerous.  I should note I am not skilled in this area at all!

may try bigger o42 curves.  Good idea. 

may just let the youngsters (two actually—five and one and a half years old) have at it and learn by experience!!

the dc conversion idea sounds interesting: what should I look for and where for a dc transformer.  And what do I need to do to the engine to accomplish this.  Remember the engine runs fine now it just has too much available power from the little 45w 16v max 1025 transformer. 

ozzie

Just a few thoughts:

Use the 1033. My 027 layout had one, and a 2055 PW small Hudson. It almost never "flew off the track", and when it did, I learned to control the throttle better. I was 7 years old. Learning is part of it. It quit flying (and the class lights on the smokebox front survived).

Some have added a screw/post stop to the throttle-sweep area of the transformer to physically limit the handle travel.

Yes. I forgot to mention the 1033 will probably go with the set.  May explore a set screw on the 1025 but not sure yet.

The two boy family will get a larger Christmas layout later—O gauge track in a bigger oval with a 2025 engine that was my childhood set.  This first set is for the playroom to come out whenever they want.  For now the older one is enamored with trains.

My third grandson getting a Christmas layout too but under a year old so too soon to tell.

I only do a temporary layout Christmas and one landscaped drop from the garage ceiling figure 8 layout at my home. I am in awe of the layouts on display here. 

I enjoy collecting for operating and repairing.  Not into true collecting.  I also limit myself (with minor exceptions) to Lionel from 1952 which helps limit my impulses!

Perhaps forget the diodes and epoxy some small item on top of the transformer to limit the distance you want the control lever to reach.

First off, I've been using 027 track with 027 curves for 32 plus years. There is a distinct advantage here for those who do not have space for large layouts, 027 tracks allows for layouts in small spaces. Saying to just ditch it is as useful as telling those who are having problems with Legacy or DCS to get rid of that and get some reliable postwar: It doesn't help anyone. By the way, if you can find it, MARX at one time made 027 curves in a 34 inch diameter, which is larger but would still allow building of a small layout, like on a hollow core door, should you ever do that for your grandsons.

But, since you are only doing floor layouts as you say, maybe you'd want to invest in just an oval of FasTrack, which has its' advantages for floor layouts.

Yes, the 1033 is a great transformer because of the dual voltage settings to the track. The B-U setting of 0-11 volts is great for even the basic K-Line starter set locos that would normally take off like jack rabbits. Using the 1033 with the B-U setting, they won't. I've had so-called experts claim I have to installed TMCC into my K-Line S-2's as there's no way they could run so slowly. Well, they are wrong.

BUT there's a way with your 1025 transformer. If you take a small board, mount the transformer to that, then you can rig up a "throttle limiter" using a block of wood on the right side of the transformer (same height) and then using a strip of wood or metal (with a series of a few holes drilled into it), you can screw in this strip to the larger RH block of wood, and thus create a physical limiter that will allow the throttle lever to only be turned up to a certain point. I know a couple guys who creatively did things like this and it worked great.

Bear in mind too, those smaller sorts of transformers came in a ton of train sets made over the years. Somehow, even with the drawbacks (especially noticed by adults), enough of us still managed to stay interested in trains into our adulthood. Those small transformers are also great for accessories, getting a customized voltage for the best operation.

The other thing too, for using the 1025, is to get a lighted caboose instead of the non-illuminated one, and maybe one of those die-cast postwar search light cars. The extra weight, and power draw, will help slow down the train.

But as also suggested above, the boys have to learn sometime. If they don't like the train flying off the curve, there's a way to prevent it: Keep the throttle turned down. AND with the layout on the floor, the likelihood of damage being done is far less than if the train was on a layout several feet above the floor.

First layout + carpet = perfect environment for learning train control.   Lionel overengineered their trains to be used just that way.  One suggestion:  Don't forget to put a bit of cardboard under the 1025 to keep it from scorching the carpet.  Don't ask me how I know this. 

Mitch

I’m currently exploring these last two ideas.  Either epoxy on a bump to top to limit travel or the wood idea.  Also thinking on fashioning a black plastic wedge to silicon glue on the top 1) to make it removable at a later time and 2) to make it look like the transformer came that way.  The oldest grandson probably not be able to remove and may not realize “o great let’s remove this and see what happens!@“.

of course I want them to explore so his dad will be able to remove it later. 

I did weight the tender which helps. Good idea on a lighted caboose too. 

thanks all

I have had great success using a 12VDC / 5Amp power supply to run everything from prewar Marx and American Flyer to a top-heavy post war Lionel 1656.  However, since you own vintage Lionel AC transformers, consider purchasing a Lionel AC to DC Converter such as the 6-5900 (approximately $10. and available on that auction web site).  These are simply wired between your transformer and your track.

Early post war motors are universal.  They’ll run on AC or DC.  The difference is in performance and control.  With DC, a young engineer can make his or her train run at a realistic crawl or smoothly increase the speed safely without the need for supernatural fine motor coordination.

As long as the train being run does not have any devices designed specifically for AC operation (e.g. a whistle or bell tender) and the layout is a simple loop, there are no downsides to using DC power.

Access Benz Trainz on YouTube.  His latest videos cover converting AC power from a 1033 transformer to DC power through the use of a full wave bridge rectifier and depict the impact on locomotive control.

Looks like a simple bridge rectifier can convert my 1025 to dc output easily enough.  I will test that.  There are no whistles on the 2034s slope back tender to worry about.  What I can’t find answered anywhere is does the dc conversion mean the e-unit will still operate in all positions to get forward neutral reverse neutral??

the Benz train videos never mentions and always shows stop and forward direction only?

There is no good way to tame the high-strung nature of postwar 4- and 6-wheel steam locos.  They're clumsy and tragically under-geared.  Like most of you I started with one of these 2-4-2's and after a few broken marker lights (and scolding, and tears) I learned to control it.  But it's really not a good design, there's no easy way to improve it.  Limiting the voltage might limit the absolute top speed.  But-- the behavior of these motors changes a lot with various loads.  When you put several cars behind the loco,  the lower voltage may not be enought to start the train moving, so it will just sit there with the motor getting warm.  Not good!

A LionChief Plus Pacific like 6-81311 is the about smoothest and easiest-operating steam loco I can think of for O27 track.  Synchronized sound and smoke, looks good on sharp curves with traditional rolling stock, not a lot of details to break off, kid-friendly wireless remote.  Another key benefit...  At some point in the future you might want to have two trains sharing the same track.  (This makes for very exciting operation!)  So get another LionChief Plus.  There's no need for block wiring (which is a boon for temporary floor layouts) and unlike a block system you have true individual control.  Heck, you wouldn't even need a second transformer!  This is how I'd want my son to be introduced to the hobby!

If you're determined to stick with postwar, then I suggest a "boring" diesel like a 622, 2033, or even a 2383.    These have a lower center of gravity and a much better effective gear ratio.  A dual-motored 2383 will give smoother starts, more consistent running at slow and medium speed, with a more muted top speed than any of the small postwar steamers.

One more thing... O27 is a limitation.  You don't have to go all the way to O42 -- that takes a lot of space and really limits what you can do on a 4x8.  But, even starter sets come with O36 these days.  If you're willing to step up from O27 to O31, the LionChief Plus 726-style Berkshire runs even better than the LC+ Pacific.  Or... a 773!  NOT kidding!  It's the only postwar steam loco that runs like a diesel.  With 18:1 worm drive, he can't run that one fast enough to leave the track.  It's ironic that the most expensive loco Lionel sold after the war is actually the best toy -- more forgiving and less frustration than the entry-level models.

"It's the gear ratio, Brian.  It always has been the gear ratio."

@Obuckler posted:

...What I can’t find answered anywhere is does the dc conversion mean the e-unit will still operate in all positions to get forward neutral reverse neutral??

Yes. This is a universal AC / DC series wound motor.

By the looks of that first photo, very nice job on the clean-up/respray on the 2034. I recently found a 2034 at the local antiques mall for five bucks, sans tender. The vendor described it as "not running", but I've found these low-end PW locos to be relatively bullet-proof. Even the E-unit on these are remarkably durable. A few minutes with a stiff brush, a few q-tips, and a shot of contact cleaner/lubricant and it was back in service. At some point, I'll need to pull the brush-plate and give that and the face of the commutator a good cleaning.

That said, every "Scout" style loco that's ever passed through my hands has run like a banshee, and this 2034 is no exception. A tender and a three or four car consist will slow it down nicely. I don't think there's any need to muck around with the electrics. Besides, kids want them to run fast.

I'm not one for repainting these things, but cosmetically, this 2034, while complete with the exception of a missing bell, has many chips and dings in the paintwork. Is there a decent rattle-can offering of satin-black out there that will make a job of it?

PD

PD,

You'll get many good recommendations for low-cost or easy-to-find alternatives here shortly I'm sure.  However, because of its nice sheen, that appears to deliver the most recent 'from-the-factory look', several folks over the years have recommended PJ1 Coatings' Special Satin Black.

Here's one such reference:

   PJ1 Special Satin. Many Motorcycle dealers stock it or get it online. | Norton

Mike

Thanks, Mike, I'll look for it.

PD

Wow.   Having started out a year ago with a Scout engine on a layout on a concrete basement floor, with 027 curves, I fully understand your "fly off the track" issue.

Yet, in my opinion, and based on my experience, you are utilizing very complicated electrical solutions for something that is substantially curable by simple mechanical adjustments.

1.   027 track is too tight to use as your curves and is not as rigid as the 031 type track.   Use 031 type track and go up to 042 curves.  You could go up to just 031 curves and put a straight piece of track in the center of the curve, separating the two halves of the curves, to reduce the centrifugal force that causes the roll overs.

2.   Having a layout "on the carpet" is fun, but the track will never have a solid foundation and will always wobble and flex when the engine rounds those curves.  As a matter of fact, it will bend outward when the engines comes around the bend and cause it to roll over.   Screw it down on a homesite or plywood board, 3/4 inch. 

3.  Absolutely use the 1033 transformer.  You certainly don't need any more than that.  It is the F-150 of train transformers. And yes, connect the lower voltage posts to the track.

4.  Find the highest throttle position on the transformer, where the engine will always stay on the track.  Buy a peel and stick blaze orange sticker (such as the two inch round target stickers sold at gun stores), and cut it into a large red arrow or marker, and stick it to the face of the transformer to mark the "too high speed" threshold.   Any child old enough to work a throttle by hand is old enough to learn that going past the red marker will roll the engine.   (In my opinion, the entire purpose of a train set for a child is to teach them how to operate mechanical devices.)    Believe me, your grandson will figure this out in about 5 minutes, particularly if you make him put the engine back on the track himself when he rolls it.

5.   90% of the problems you are having is because you (like me) are starting with a high speed low-cost Scout engine (I only paid $60 for mine), and you are attempting to design and wire your entire layout to cure the speed issues that are endemic to those inexpensive models.   When you feel comfortable about it, move your grandson up to a used 1970s type loco, with a well operating Pullmor motor.   These run much more smoothly, and diesels with these motors can be had for around $75.

I bought and used my Scout primarily as a cheap energy-hog "test engine" in building, wiring and testing my layout.  It worked great for that.     When I was done, I sold it for $10 less than I paid for it.   I know you put alot of work into yours, so keep it on a shelf for display and occasional use.   It will last forever and maybe your grandson will keep it later in life as a keep-sake.

If you think back about it, for all of the extra money and components etc. that you have spent on rehabbing the Scout, and adding electrical components, I am pretty sure that you could have bought a used VG+ Thomas the Tank Car loco, with a modern smooth running can motor, and your grandson would have probably thought that it was really cool.

Hope this advice helps.  (I am still learning as I go.)

Mannyrock

A little bit of overreacting here. Toss the diodes they are not needed.  As kids many of us grew up using a 1033 we learned how to handle it. 1033 is the way to go.

This is a lot of conversation looking for a solution for a problem that does not exist.  Let me see if I have this correctly.  If I turn the handle to far, the engine goes too fast and goes off the track.  Well, welcome to the fun of a 'first' train set.  Based on my childhood, here are a couple of other non problems.  Give him a second engine so they can be connected tender to tender and see which one can pull the other around the track.  Also, make them smokers so that he can fill the room with smoke as they both are going balls to the wall. Finally there is the favorite scene of both starting at opposite ends of a long straight track wondering what will happen if the handle is kicked all the way to 'warp'.

Everyone who did not do one of these as a kid can reply.

Obuckler, the 2034 is a good locomotive, made in 1952, with a better motor. I also have one that I bought to run around my tree years ago from a little shop in NJ, called The Loose Caboose. I can also attest to the dependability of the 1033 transformer, as I had one that my dad bought for my first layout in 1947. I only wish I had kept my 2035, and 221 that he bought for me. At any rate, Your post inspired me to clean and lube mine, and run it on the layout.

I am glad another one survived.

The 2034 is really a robust engine for what it is. It’s fully rebuildable so it can be brought back from the dead. Runs great and with a bit noise.  Both good things for a starter train.  It is simple at its best.