Flyonel SD40

Sounds like a great choice to me. Des Plains was having trouble with electronics last I heard.

 

Lionel tried the SD40 for the American Flyer line. It flopped and was cancelled. Perhaps it is time to try again, but it is very difficult for a company retry what has failed so badly in the past.

I would so love to see those produced. With road-specific details like their O Gauge line.

WBC

I know they cataloged it back in the day, but I think it's possible that the market has changed for both S gauge AND flyer S gauge from 1998. The interdiction of what is a lot of nicely detailed locos in a relatively short period of time probably would not have been a believable progression for Lionel's S gauge line back in 98. 

I think the time era for the SD40(-2) would be more of a broad appeal to S gaugers than the modern SD70 or ES44 would be.  Less complaining about a lack of era appropriate rolling stock.

Heck, I would prefer a legacy piece for compatibility with what I already have, but would be happy to take an MTH version as well!

I don't recall it being as much of a flop as not being given much of a chance.  Sure, there was some resistance to something way out of the Flyer box for the true believers at the time, but a few short years later, the Mikado was announced.  It would have been a good time to reintroduce the SD40 around the same time.

 

The heavily retouched photo of an Athearn HO model and one roadname didn't help.

 

Rusty

I'd like to add that most Flyer guys didn't know about the policy of pre-order back then either.  I certainly didn't. 

 

I agree with NotInWi.  Would the SD40-2 sell now?  Perhaps.  But after the recent cancellations, I won't hold my breath for having more diesels brought out. 

 

 

I suspect anything new will be more in the FlyerChief vein rather than full-scaleish.  Unless the Berkshires flop, then expect recycled traditional for the near future.

 

I'm also going to keep breathing...

 

Rusty

Would I buy an SD-40 or two or 4? Probably. Do I think that we will see them from Lionel? No. Why? Not enough paying customers.

 

I've been told that tooling costs alone for a diesel like this would be somewhere between $250K-$500k. That is a lot of units to move just to recoup the tooling investment. Are there enough customers out there to buy that many? I have my doubts, sorry.

 

 

I don't doubt this this might be 2 inches short of a pipe dream, but if one were to pick a diesel with the best shot of being worthwhile to do at this point, I think the SD40-2 is it.  (Open for other suggestions). 

I was looking to post something a little more on the positive side (I have been a big contributor to the sky is falling threads) and was looking to drum up a little* positive feedback or suggestions amongst the group that maybe Lionel will read. 

Ben.

I agree. The SD-40-2 would be very popular. Give multiple roadnames with multiple cab numbers, I would buy an irresponsible amount of them. With and without dynamic brakes per road name please.

We could probably pretty much agree that an SD40-2 would be the perfect locomotive to offer, (along with a GP38-2) as both enjoyed long careers with multiple railroads.  It's probably easier to list the railroads that didn't have them. 

 

Additionally, a good part of the S Scale America product line is already in place to compliment SD40-2's. 

 

One could almost look at it as being so obvious, why hasn't the SD40-2 been done already?  I certainly don't know...

 

But, it's looking like the cards have been dealt by Lionel and the new reality no longer includes products of the SD70 and ES44 caliber.   And MTH still isn't out of the depot.

 

Believe me, I would love to be wrong...

 

Rusty

"One could almost look at it as being so obvious, why hasn't the SD40-2 been done already?"

 

   I guess it fell in the gap where transition era was more popular than modern era and then was too old to make when they decided to build the heritage scheme locos? I'd certainly build the SD40-2 if it was up to me, it along with the GP9 were iconic locos used almost everywhere.....DaveB

One more vote for the SD40-2 if and when Lionel decides to tool up another new scale loco....

Wow!  I just did a quick search to find which railroads had the SD40, and it seems like which railroads DIDN'T have at least one!  Here's a link: http://www.american-rails.com/sd40-2.html

 

Union Pacific, Chicago and North Western, Milwuakee Road, Soo and Santa Fe (Wisconsin and Southern 40-2)...yep, would buy them all.  

I wonder if there is enough room to stick the legacy electronics inside of one in S gauge.

It would seem that it could be cataloged, run off of the build to order strategy, and let the preorders (or lack of) do the talking.

I don't see why Legacy wouldn't fit in an S Scale SD40-2.  Might have to sacrifice a motor in a GP, but there should be room enough in an SD.

 

Or course, the issue is convincing Lionel to build them.

 

Rusty

And please, no fantasy schemes...

I would buy a few of the SD-40's if they were made.  I would prefer that they be Legacy and not the new Lionel single controller system.

 

--Rocco--

New tooling is expensive, and they will need the sales to justify the expense. Scott Mann should consider a move to the S Scale/Gauge market

If an investment in new tooling can be amortized over multiple issues and reissues of product, then it reduces the risk and increases the return on investment—as long as customers buy the product. The proposal of an SD40 makes sense because it avoids the problems that may have contributed to unsatisfactory sales of Lionel’s most recent releases—modern locomotives in glossy paint schemes. The SD40 is an older, popular locomotive; scores of railroads ordered it, so it can be reissued with multiple numbers in different paint schemes each year (as American Flyer has done for years with the less popular Alco PA/PB); the engine may be long enough to squeeze Legacy electronics in it—length being a requirement, as we have seen with Legacy U33Cs, Y3s, and the modern releases.   

 

I know there are different preferences in S gauge modeling, but I have never felt any animosity from anyone for my choice of high-rail track and wheels and scale everything else. If Lionel offered scale wheel sets as an after-purchase option and included the SD70ACe design for fixing the pilot to the frame, scale modelers might be even more satisfied with an SD40 than they were with the Y3. Lionel was quick to fix many of the early objections to their new production of S gauge engines: the swinging pilot of the U33C became the clever pivoted pilot of the SD70 and ES44. AC-only Legacy restriction became Legacy AC/DC/DCC flexibility for S sooner than for O gauge. Lionel included brackets for Kadee couplers and an easy removal of the electro-couplers (although they got the screw size wrong for the ES44 versions.) And there is no denying the fabulous paint and detail on these latest locomotives that makes investigating them with a magnifying glass a fun and enlightening exercise.

 

If Lionel took a chance on an SD40with the same Legacy and pivoting pilot features as their last two models, I, too, would buy several. Gilbert lovers would be happy with them as is. High-rail modelers would likely feel the same as long as those who swap electro-couplers for Kadee couplers had the correct screws with the brackets. Scale modelers would require the availability of optional scale wheels sets and the SD70 method of fixing the pilot to the frame.     

 

Lionel might be able to evaluate the interest with their “build-to-order” system, as long as they were careful to accurately show and describe what would be offered. It is difficult to build customer confidence with faulty, misleading, or missing information. (No more mention of the long-non-existent “AF Speed Control on/off switch”; emphasis of road-specific details such as those that Lionel inexplicably failed to mention for the U33C models; and appropriate graphics rather than cut-and-paste images that are identical except for colors).  A request for pre-orders would require two years before delivery if Lionel decided to go ahead: six months for assessing interest; 12 to 18 months for design and mold building; and six months for manufacturing, packaging, and shipping. This is a long time; but if Lionel representatives communicated with the S gauge community by attending shows that S Forum members have suggested and by talking to interested parties at shows or through the forum, interest and confidence would grow over that time period. If Lionel, on the other hand, decides to conduct business as usual, business will continue as usual: too few sales, disappointment on both sides, and blowout sales to remove old stock off shelves. No one is happy.

TOKELLY,

 

Well said.

 

--Rocco--

Maybe a grass roots campaign would fit the bill?  Many of us see the Lionel folks at various shows around the country, also York is coming up.  Email and facebook is another way to go to show the desire to have one (or any model) made. 

I will do my part in letting Lionel know how they can get my money.  Emails and face to face conversations with Lionel reps could not hurt us at this point.  I encourage all to reach out.

Ben

I asked Lionel people about why they seemed to be backing off of S. They told me that tooling costs are similar between S and O so why bother to pay X to tool a new S model when they could tool a new O model and sell many more units.

 

I think 4 years ago there were people in charge that felt like they could grow Lionel AF into something larger than what it was. I get the feeling that the current regime does not share that idea.

 

I think you are on the right track though Ben (no pun intended). If they don't hear from more S modelers about the lack of products it isn't going to change.

 

I was unaware of whoever this Scott person was/is and also unaware of his Father or any product offerings they may have had, and I read all the major model railroad publications as well as the NASG Website News and all the S Only publications.  I would guess that whatever they wanted to manufacture was not well publicized.   Or I could be wrong, and I was just clueless rather than malignant.  Oh well.   

 

Little Tommy

I was just poking around on 3rail's website.  I would LOVE to have some of the SD7 and SD9s on there in S.  The O scale price is less than a legacy flyonel steamer.  There is some really nice stuff on the 3rd rail page.  It's just all the wrong scale. 

Ben

3rd Rail AKA Scott Mann(Owner of 3Rd Rail)  does production runs of 100 to 150 pieces of a model. Makes all kinds of great stuff us O scale guys love and we buy em up.

Yep. And he told me he would be happy to make S scale products as long as he could get the orders.

 

The S scale community seems to be very particular about how they are approached though. Apparently having a website for the SP Pacific wasn't good enough. I guess he should have spent money on advertising for a product that he wasn't sure there was a market for. Personally, I don't blame him.

 

If you can find a model that is of interest to enough S scale modelers I'm sure he would build it. You just have to find 150 S scale modelers to commit. And that is the problem.

 

I honestly wish you the best of luck. It would be great to see Scott in S. He could knock the SD40 out of the park. Of course I felt that way 4 years ago too...

 

BTW... You can still see the Pacific website here: http://www.3rdrail.com/s_scale-old.html

No surprise as to why the response may have been poor. If the S scale version was in the $1500 range that's pricey!

I never heard anything about the potential of products from 3rd Rail.  I saw nothing on the NASG website, nothing in the Dispatch, nothing in the S Gaugian, nothing in CTT (either in print or their website), nothing in MR (either in print or their website), nothing in RMC.  I don't remember seeing anything on this board either.  Was I supposed to be watching the websites of folks who manufacture in other scales?  How did anybody know that 3rd Rail was willing to build things in S? Are there 150 modelers in S who want something as unique as a specific Railroad's Steam Locomotive (since almost every railroad's engines were unique to that railroad with the exception of the USRA designs)? 

 

The other question is, if 150 modelers actually bought a $1500.00 product from 3rd Rail, would that make Lionel even less likely to produce an SD 40?  The ways of Lionel are mysterious indeed. 

 

 

Little Tommy

 "Apparently having a website for the SP Pacific wasn't good enough"

 

  Well there's two things wrong with it. First is how would anyone who doesn't regularly check the 3rd rail site even know about the proposed loco? and second a steam loco only used by one railroad is a very poor vehicle to test the demand for S models. Something used by almost every road would make a lot more sense.The SD40-2 was the most popular loco of it's time and things like PFE mechanical reefers were seen all over the country so those are the obvious products to attract more modelers to S scale.....DaveB

A more productive outlet for the 3 rail discussion would be, by what process does one go through to suggest a S gauge SD40-2 for consideration to 3 rail?  How have model ideas been successfully pitched in the past?

 

Ben

Here's a different twist on the question.  How hard would it be to "bash" an SE 40 out of an existing locomotive already produced by  American Models?

 

 I see the articles all the time in RMC about cutting up HO models to make a specific prototype and American Models makes an SD 60, an F 40PH and a GP35, all EMD products.    Some combination of cut up shells and added detail parts should be able to come"close enough"

 

I personally admit that I don't want an SD40 enough to go to all that work, but maybe someone does.

 

Little Tommy

I saw the 3rd Rail SP Pacific when it was listed in their ad. I liked what I saw

 

I don't model the SP.

 

If they are to market a steamer, make one that a lot of roads used. Make it a dual service engine. Passenger trains are not available readily in S. River Raisen offered the N&W J, but what would we pull with it?

A U.S.R.A Mountain may work in the roads that had them. Scare up a passenger train for it, or haul freight.

 

I might as well jump in and share my experiences with the former offerings in S by Sunset.

Between 2 friends they had all 3. The FEF3 4-8-4, the Challenger, and the Big Boy.

They were known as and were poor runners. I think they had coupling problems between the motor and gear box. This seemed to be something that needed attention. Whether the manufacturer offered a fix for this I do not know. My acquaintances seemed to think it was up to them to tinker with them.  

Friend 1 sold the 4-8-4 and Challenger when he received an offer for them.

Friend 2 tinkered and tuned that Big Boy endlessly. He got it to run well enough, and I saw it give hours of service. Not without mishap. Once a side-rod bent right on the locomotive. It was found to have been made from a very soft metal.

Wonderful looking engines. But shelf queens unless you were really driven to have them run. 

Again, just my observations, I was only a by-stander. But both these people were not hacks, and are good modelers.

 

S Gaugers have long memories.

 

But that was then, and it's a whole new era now. An O Gauge friend has a few 3rd rail engines. They look good, they run good. Beautiful stuff. 

 

At $1500 for a Pacific. It would have to be a prototype for a road I collect. SP isn't it. Pretty engines, but don't fit my mid-western layout. That price is about 50% more than what I might buy just because I like it.

But I'd put in a reservation for something that fits into the area I model. Which is Chicago. A lot of roads came through here. 

 

Of course there are couple things 3rd rail made in O that are so neat I would buy in S even though they don't belong in the Chicago region.

What's so particular about contacting the S press?  Contact the NASG Dispatch, S Gaugian, S Scale resource, sign up for the S Yahoo boards. 

 

Products could be announced without advertising fees in new products columns.

 

Relying solely on a "Hey, lookatdat" from a third party (and yes, I tried talking up the SP Pacific) isn't all that effective when an O scale manufacturer is trying to break into another scale.  To sit back and expect the S market to react to every new sparkley like the O Gauge market does is unrealistic.  Especially when there is no "track record" to speak of.

 

And seriously, how many S Scalers/Gaugers are going to casually cruise a website called 3rd Rail?  Probably about as many that would casually cruise the Kato N Scale website...

 

Yeah, I'll admit there's still some bad blood between some S Scalers and the former Sunset models, of which 3rd Rail is wrongly getting hit by the splatter.  It's tough to overcome guilt by association.

 

I've got several Burlington 3rd Rail O scale locomotives and recently reserved the Burlington O1a.  I'd reserve them in half a minute if they were offered in S, but I could also probably say there would probably only be a handful of other S Scalers that would order one.  There probably aren't even enough Burlington modelers in S to get a minimum quantity together.

 

The NASG, S Gaugian, or myself can't just snap our fingers and create hundreds of new S Gaugers looking for products from 3rd Rail or anyone else.  There's no denying S is a small market and it's stuck in the chicken and egg quandary.  I'm sure the existing manufacturers would love to see thing fly off the shelves as they do in O or HO.

 

Rusty

 

 

 

 

Not to drudge up the past too much, but what was the beef between S-gaugers and Sunset?  

 

The reason I ask is that Scott does great stuff in O.  I have of some of his current stuff and more on order.  There are 2-rail scale people that are into good stuff and praise the detail and smooth running of his engines.   He does TMCC and DCC right now (3-rail & 2-rail respectivel for the O  people).

 

I will email him about what he would need for a minimum run. Right now F7's in O are runnning $600.00.  Not cheap but not too crazy if you look at Brass importers and Lionel's current pricing in O and S scale.

 

He will put something out there with numerous road names and then take reservations. He will then reduce it down based on road names and let you know what is going forward and what is being cancelled due to low reservation numbers.  No deposit for a reservation - only your word that you are committing to an order ( honor system).

 

 

I would LOVE for him to do some stuff in S scale.  

 

Lionel scored with the SD70ace IMHO, and I love my MTH O scale - but I am STILL  waiting to see my first F3 in S scale from them.  And no MTH 2015 catalog coming in 2015 before York? I could use the ( WT*) expletive here.  Come on guys. If have to I will go with eBay SHS stuff and American models. Smokey Mountain models is "thinking" of doing a SD40. I would take 1 for sure and maybe 3 depending on the final price .  Sorry, just had to vent here a bit.

>> what process does one go through to suggest a S gauge SD40-2 for consideration to 3 rail?

 

Let's keep in mind that Scott Mann has always stated he will make anything we want if we bring him the orders.  So................if you want something, the first step is to ask Scott how many orders he needs at what price.  Then, you pick up the telephone and do a sales job on everyone you know.

 

Then you post messages and photos on every Yahoo Group and every model railroading forum you can think of including the S SIG at http://sscale.org/ .  Next up are magazines and ezines -- send them all a new product announcement for publication.  Be sure to state that XXX number of orders are needed in order to assure production.

 

Last, but not least, ask Scott to pay for two large ads in the S GAUGIAN and the NASG DISPATCH and one small ad on the S page (inside front cover) in RMC.  His paying for an ad will only happen if enough reservations have been received to show Scott there is some possibility of this actually bearing fruit.

 

After you have done everything you can think of and the reservations are still a bit short, ask everyone to buy two instead of one.  Go to bed optimistically with a smile on your face.  Do not complain one whit about being forced to do all the marketing and sales efforts for a manufacturer.  You are the one who wanted the loco and you are the one who will have to work for it.

 

If you are lucky and work hard, the loco will be yours -- eventually.  By the way, the same procedure applies to anyone making anything in S scale.

 

Good luck.....Ed L.

>> what was the beef between S-gaugers and Sunset?

 

You have opened Pandora's box with this question.  The history is long gone, but here is my view of it:

 

1.  Every S loco produced (Geeps, Big Boy, Challenger, etc.) by Sunset had serious problems with either the dimensions, operational reliability or both.  With extensive tinkering, they could be made to run.  But the irritation factor was very great and people were angry.  I believe all this was back in the early 1980s, but my dates could be off a bit.

 

2.  More recently, Sunset attempted to get orders for an S scale Zephyr.  I do not remember the price, but it was reasonable.  Unfortunately, little advertising was done and most people never knew about it.  Eventually the project was cancelled.  When asked about it, the response was:  "Our network of dealers reported no demand for an S product."  Of course, Sunset's network of dealers only had O gauge customers, but that fact never seemed germane to anyone.  After the Sunset cancellation, River Raisin Models produced a nearly identical product for about twice the price and it sold out very quickly.  Why the difference?  RRM advertised it and attended train shows and marketed their own product with enthusiasm.  RRM has their finger on the S pulse.

 

3.  In general, the S finger seems to be pointing at Sunset to do a reasonable amount of their own marketing in order to provide the S consumer with confidence and assurance.  The Pacific's marketing "effort" was very weak at best and the history of things worked against it.  As others have stated, the SP Pacific was a loco used on just one railroad.  In addition, Pacifics have historically been poor sellers in all scales.  Probably a better choice of prototypes could have been made.  Hindsight is, of course, perfect at all times.

 

4.  One of the sad things about this situation is that many fellows think they are a wonderful organization unfairly getting the short end of the stick.  They feel Scott should be given a chance to overcome the history -- especially now that his recent track record in O gauge is acceptable.  Other fellows think if a company (any company) is unwilling to do their own research and marketing, they do not inspire confidence.  And reliance on O gauge dealers for S information is unbelievably stupid.  So the negative talk does go on and on even after two or three decades.

 

Personally, I'd be willing to give Sunset an order if the proposed product fits in with a NYC-themed layout in the transition era.  And, it would have to be something never before offered in S scale.  Something like full scale length Budd passenger cars would really excite me.  Who wants to lead that charge?

 

You asked "what was the beef".  Now you know.  Hopefully I did not upset too many preconceived notions with this answer.

 

Fingers are crossed.......Ed L.

 

 

I would like a at least 3 each SD-40-2s, two powered, one dumby in BN..please

 

I agree. Soo Line please, without the dynamic brake blister. Thanks so much. Milwaukee too.   But with dynamic brakes.