Future of the hobby

Whatever happens, I know that I just spent the last hour or so running my trains with my Legacy controller and that it was a great "operation", as the famous Joe McDoaks used to say. Actually the quote is: "Now that's an operation!". Whether battery power or otherwise, the fun is in designing & building a layout that suits your needs. I built my layout using tinplate track because that's what my railroad ran for the last 50 years. It's part of the fun. For me, Legacy control beats conventional, but I am not interested in moving to WIFI control nor Bluetooth. I like turning off the main power switch, knowing that all trains at the end of an operating session , etc. are powered down and safe. 

The main point is to keep running trains however you like to.

Happy Railroading to all!

StPaul posted:

...and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support...

Spend just 10 minutes running a train with your smart phone or iPad and you will NEVER want to use a DCS remote again.

Whats the advantage of battery power?  Except for a kids toy with cheap motors and cutting out the transformer and metal track expense?

Mike W. posted:

Whats the advantage of battery power?  

Many, many advantages:

1) Never have to clean track again, since the track is no longer energized.

2) Only one very reliable control system, i.e. No DCS, No legacy, and No TMCC.

Except for a kids toy with cheap motors and cutting out the transformer and metal track expense?

Mike W. posted:

Whats the advantage of battery power?  Except for a kids toy with cheap motors and cutting out the transformer and metal track expense?

Dead rail would have many advantages, unfortunately, the charging of the batteries, is a greater disadvantage at present, than the advantages offered by battery power.

Doug

Hello Trainmen! Who knows what the future holds ,but it looks like the "BIG 2"(Lionel and MTH) are not worried about it that much.As the price of all other electronic products eventually comes down, it doesn't appear to be true for train related components. I was a conventional holdout until last year,and I have to admit the "new" trains are way cool.

But they have been out now 20 years, and really not much innovation except the smoking whistle on ONLY the top shelf trains get those features.And only the truest of the true train enthusiasts are willing to do the Built to Order thing.No investment in new tooling,No new "way out" accessories ,besides the smoke fluid loader, in this digital age,I figured we would see MOVEMENT and NEW product development ,it almost seems like MTH and Lionel are just willing to ride it out.  

Even if I was blind,I could see that my target audience is waiting .And none of us are getting any younger.If you are ,send me some of that stuff you got!!!!(LOL)

We're the guys that got train sets for Christmas,these kids get x boxes and playstations,and no matter how hard they try,I don't see the youngsters asking for trains for Christmas!! Of course, there are exceptions to that statement ,I have met a HANDFULL of kids who are really into the hobby, but mostly because someone in their family is a train nut.

 If I owned a train business,I'd read the writing on the wall, and would be CATERING to the guys who are still here, very much alive, with more disposable income than they ever had, by making  product they couldn't help but run out to buy it!!!! I'd be making sure that we all couldn't live without it, like our TIU's and Legacy systems.

A lot of train purchases are IMPULSE buying ,and the Built To Order marketing model may help them from not having some overstock, they really don't have a clue as to how much money they are really losing out  on, as several guys have stated on this tread already. Give us something we want, something that captures our limited attention, rather than try to PUSH some wireless system and iPhone controller that we never really asked for.

I'm on that **** phone more than I want to be, when I hit the trains,I wanna be as far away from that phone as I can get. Somebody's always calling, messaging , or getting an ALERT 24/7. I don't hear anybody saying,Man,I gotta go out and run my train on a phone!!! In fact ,what I see is guys grabbing their remotes and clutching them tighter than ever before!!!!  

Everyone's talking about tech.What are they doing with it that wasn't being done say,14 years ago????Sure,there's more memory now in the Proto3,0 boards now, but the processor business made that happen, not the train makers.  

I ,more than anyone WISH they would BOTH WAKE UP and smell the coffee.

After us, there are not millions of train fanatics anymore.How many people have seen folks pass on, and the Kids want NOTHING to do with DAD;s train collection.Or how many of you have helped a widow try and get some kind of fair value out of her husband's great collection??I have witnessed both of these things personally.  

So,I guess we just enjoy what we have, buy more upgrade kits and keep doing what we've been doing.

It's great and a heck of a lot of fun, but it could be, and should be the most fun we've ever had.A kind of "THANK YOU"for making us both incredibly wealthy, beyond my wildest imagination.

There is no excuse for a $1,200 train to take a dump fresh out of the box.I hear it on here almost everyday.

Why are all the repairmen so busy???People are going out and buying OLD stuff with a better build, and having them upgraded. Beats buying a new one that may.may not run when you get it home.

The animation of the accessories  is not much better than the postwar days, just quieter.They could do so much more.They have in the past. 

You gotta keep hittin' them, while the iron is hot.If you are in a band, and you make  a hit record, you don't wait ten years to release your newest tune.you get it out there while they are still listening to the first one,so they buy the second one as well.You tour.You SHOW your fans you LOVE them, and appreciate their time and money.(just an example from a old, washed up Musician!!)  

So much time has passed now, it just might be too late to innovate, because the iron is lukewarm .at best!!!

I thought by now they would both be blowing our minds with this "TECH",and charging the pants off us for it.We've bought it before, why wouldn't we now?

But like the rest of you,I can dream,I can hope. I can run my #2353's and still have a blast!!!I can run my MTH and Legacy stuff and have a Blast!!!I can use my Imagination,and this is the one driving force they both lack right now.Imagination and Motivation.

We have lived through witnessing the greatest train maker in toy train history.Maybe he's worked so hard to get it where it is, he's just tired.

But why slow down now, when you've got CUSTOMERS who want  product?

And Lionel is just a corporate entity, with Mike Reagan Gone,there went the talent and genius out the door.You can't go out and just "Hire A GUY" anything close to him.

But I know we are all looking for a 'new Kick",but the only thing getting kicked right now is our behinds.

I don't mean to sound Negative,I'm busy today restoring a 636W,and gonna put a different paint scheme on its I can get my "Kick" outta that.

I'm just calling BOTH of the companies out.Lower the prices a little.Put some of our money into product development and research, instead of your bank accounts,and BILLionaire Lifestyles.

If you did, your bank accounts would be bigger than they ever were.  I am waiting to hit the button. let the fun begin.I know I'm gonna get decked for this.Oh well..........................

No powered rails . . .

That would mean locomotives powered by batteries, AND passenger cars with batteries, operating cars with batteries, steam tenders with batteries, uncoupling track sections with batteries, track-side signals with batteries, etc. And no insulated rail block occupancy detection, and I am sure I missed some of the many gadgets we all enjoy that use track power for operation.

Admittedly, although they are the star attractions of our miniature worlds, it is not just locomotives.

Alex

MONORAILS!!!!

I don't know what the future holds. If some people want battery power and that makes them enjoy the hobby than I think that's great but speaking only for myself I have no interest in it. 

I just don't believe battery power or controlling trains with an iPad will increase the number of model railroaders. Sure maybe a small percentage of folks may get interested in the hobby because they ran some trains on an iPad but I believe these people already had the train gene in them. It just needed to be awakened. Who is to say it wouldn't have happened with a chance encounter with a train store or an unanticipated train gift? 

As for new product development I think the problem for MTH and Lionel is two main things #1) folks leaving the train hobby either all together, or O scale for another scale, or unfortunately passing on and #2) the amount of trains the folks that are left in O gauge already have. I have almost every NYC steam locomotive released except a Niagara or the 10 Wheeler (which was not released in scale wheels/2 rail). I have 5 Hudsons but one can never have enough Hudsons right? What is going to keep me in the hobby in the future is building a layout and NOT the newest locomotive to come out. However, if a new NYC locomotive does get released I will be on board for that. 

Like it or not, we are all getting older. Our children do not understand our facination with "vintage" trains because they never saw one in real life. The " newer generation" wants low maintenance toys. To get them interested in the hobby is a major accomplishment in itself. Pre war and postwar Lionel will become fodder in the not to distant future. To keep this hobby alive we all must accept technological advancements, for better or worse, or the hobby will die.

dukeofnuke posted:

Like it or not, we are all getting older. Our children do not understand our facination with "vintage" trains because they never saw one in real life. The " newer generation" wants low maintenance toys.

It's all about video games and the internet now. Easy set-up, low maintenance, take-it-with-you-anywhere-you-want-to-go entertainment. But, not to worry, there will always be some segment of society interested in model railroading, just not as many as there is today, I believe.

Track power for switches, accessories & battery charging.

just my 2c

Either move with the future, or wither on the vine. I dont see my grand daughter being interested in my  LIONEL 2185 F3 ABA set. She has never seen an F3. Nor has she seen a Hudson, or a H7, or a YP 9400. I have a lot of trains that l thought were an investment.  But the reality of the situation is, they will be sold for pennies on the dollar, when l die. That my friends, is the future of this hobby... like it or not.

Anyone buying trains as a financial investment, is making a very poor choice. As I have said before, I buy trains as an investment, it is just an investment in my Mental Health. There are those that would question my mental health, and whether the trains were the Cause, or a Symptom of my mental health

Doug

I would venture to guess that most of those who have posted comments in this thread are, like me, more than sixty years of age. As such, we are not the future of the hobby, and our preferences and biases will not determine what the hobby will become. Many of us are so clearly averse to modern technology that we admit to not buying even current technology model trains - so how can that outdated thinking carry any weight with respect to the future? Model trains have always been a high-technology item - and they will remain that way. I do prefer my modern, scale-sized, highly detailed O-gauge trains with sound and speed control, although I still run them conventionally because it is satisfactory for my layouts. I can also understand why older guys prefer to stay with what they already have. But that mindset will not define the future of the hobby.

And, in response to Alfred E. Neuman, yes - I do expect that my next car will be a Tesla 3. I already own two Toyota Prius hybrids and 60+ miles-per-gallon is great, as are the silence and vibration-free smoothness of electric mode driving.

MELGAR

If l didnt want the trains, l wouldn't buy them. But l would like to leave something of VALUE behind. Pre War and Post war are of no value to the new generation. Got rid of most of those. But the new editions, are old before they come out. Built to order is just a ploy. So buying Lionel as an investment is a pipe dream at best.

As for the future of the hobby; its not going away anytime soon but it is changing,  due to  demographics of those that buy the trains. IMO there will always be a number of model railroaders interested in model trains as an art form.  Go to a WGHOT show and it is packed with people of all ages including young children some of whom have an interest in trains. Ever go to a Day out with Thomas event. They are packed. Will some of the next generation be interested in trains and the hobby?  I say yes but as it is now the hobby is too expensive and not affordable for the young generation.  If there is a future for model trains it must become an affordable hobby.

Whether it's powered rail, battery, radio control (Bluetooth, etc.), apps/remotes, or any combination of the above, it really is all about people/families getting back to the practice of setting up a layout at Christmas.  Remember?  That's how it started for most of us! 

Take care, Joe.

Affordable? How does $1300.00 for an engine sound to a child? Want the rest of the train ? Try an extra $1200.00. Try that on your paper route money. This is 2017, not 1952. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lionel has priced out the newcomers in this hobby. The light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train!

I'm in my early 50's and find batteries and the end of 3 rail to be a depressing topic. I'm thinking if batteries do get a hold that 3 rail will live on in some form. Is it possible that batteries onboard a model train engine in the future would recieve a charge thru track power? But then again, I gave up my Crystal ball when I left the circus.

I may be making it sound like I have patents or investments in WiFi tech (I don't), but sending control data through track and pickup devices reminds me of our old party line at the ranch where the comm pairs were actually part of the livestock fence.  It was a workable, but #$%^ poor solution...it was the only solution available for a time.  Wireless technologies have provided a better solution for us.

Upon returning to this hobby after a decades hiatus I found the locomotives to be stuffed with microprocessors...a far cry from my original Lionel 2-4-2 growler.  Is there room in an O gauge chassis for one more component, or is there a barrier from preventing such??  Most all of a PC's peripherals are wireless.  It just seems like the logical next step for sophisticated model train control.

I see batteries are great for out side, but nearly pointless inside. To me it is just one more part to break. As most of the new battery life span tech is related to better motors, more power efficient electronics, not batteries. Also batteries outside of the few standard types have a track record of  of custom batteries in time becoming impossible to find, replace, or maintain. As for using Bluetooth, it already is having issues along with wifi working due to signal interference from other blue tooth and wifi devices, even the household microwaves (which i experience now, apart from extreme lag with blue tooth remotes in general). Sorry to break the bubble but, digital signals do have interference issues, and they are getting worse the more it is used.

dukeofnuke posted:

Affordable? How does $1300.00 for an engine sound to a child? Want the rest of the train ? Try an extra $1200.00. Try that on your paper route money. This is 2017, not 1952. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lionel has priced out the newcomers in this hobby. The light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train!

Inconvenient factoid:

Kids were not buying top-of-the-line Lionel sets with paper-route money in 1952.

A double-headed Santa Fe F3 freight? A GG-1 hauled aluminum passenger set? Try just a single freight car. And they still had to save up even for that.

Even during the time, it was said that top-end Lionel sets routinely cost two-weeks' wages for the typical middle-class worker.

Even if they only cost, say $99, would you really think it a good idea to buy your 8-year old a monster steam locomotive weighing nearly 20 pounds and needing six feet of space (or more) just to make a U-turn? 

---PCJ

Grampstrains posted:

So, you have a train that runs on batteries?  What are you going to use to power your layout lights, accessories, switches and signals?

We'll just use the old transformers we use to power the locomotives with!  The batteries/bluetooth/wifi control is for the locomotives.  Everything else can operate as before.  Simply wire up a remote control track and insulate it from the rest of the loop.  Or, go ahead and electrify the track for accessories.  

The big issue is reliable operation of the locomotives, not accessories.  If they make it and it works, I'll buy it.  If it doesn't work I won't buy it.  Simple, no angst or worry.  Just having fun with model trains.  As I always say, there's no wrong way to enjoy the hobby.

When I was I grade school in the mid-60's, most of my friends had moved on from their Lionel and American Flyer trains to Aurora Race Car Sets and Slot cars.  

I think we may forget that many of us in the now "older generation" had also moved on toward the flashier new toys that were coming to the market in the 60's due to advances in manufacturing, materials science, electronics and miniaturization. Different era than now, but, even then, the flashier toys had a great allure to a group that had only a few years before been mesmerized on an annual basis by the new Lionel catalogues.

dukeofnuke posted:

Affordable? How does $1300.00 for an engine sound to a child? Want the rest of the train ? Try an extra $1200.00. Try that on your paper route money. This is 2017, not 1952. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lionel has priced out the newcomers in this hobby. The light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train!

Certainly not true.

Check out the OTHER trains Lionel makes.

dukeofnuke posted:

Like it or not, we are all getting older. Our children do not understand our facination with "vintage" trains because they never saw one in real life. The " newer generation" wants low maintenance toys. To get them interested in the hobby is a major accomplishment in itself. Pre war and postwar Lionel will become fodder in the not to distant future. To keep this hobby alive we all must accept technological advancements, for better or worse, or the hobby will die.

A lot of guys say this about never seeing a steam engine in real life (in revenue service) but I never saw a steam locomotive in revenue service and I love them. I can't get enough of them. Many, many (thousands-No hundreds of thousands) of children have seen a steam locomotive in real life. Just not in revenue service but in excursion service such as the Strasburg RR. Whether it is the "Day Out with Thomas" weekend or just a regular day at the Strasburg RR children see steam engines. As Dennis mentioned above the "Day Out with Thomas" at Strasburg is so crowded they have to use a field down the road for parking and bus people to the RR. The problem is once these kids hit the video game age a very, very large percentage of them forget all about trains. My guess is as to the reason they forget about trains is that their parents have no interest in railroading. Also for the parent to foster an interest in model railroading for their 6 or 7 year old they would have to PARTICIPATE in the hobby. Isn't it a lot easier to turn on a video game system?

Affordable? How does $1300.00 for an engine sound to a child? Want the rest of the train ? Try an extra $1200.00. Try that on your paper route money. This is 2017, not 1952. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lionel has priced out the newcomers in this hobby. The light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train!

It's probably true that kids weren't buying top end Lionel. Most of them probably had their Christmas tree started set with a few add-ons. But they still built layouts. IMHO, one of the big differences of the day was attitude. Trains and Model Railroading were highly valued by families. The skills taught by constructing a layout were valued. There were books published and magazines printed that were targeted to kids. None of that is coming back.

OGR Webmaster posted:

StPaul posted:

...and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support...

Spend just 10 minutes running a train with your smart phone or iPad and you will NEVER want to use a DCS remote again.

I have and as well done as the MTH app is, I prefer a hardware remote.  I can feel everything I want to do.  I know the remote is going away so I'll embrace the new technology and I actually predicted the remotes demise, but if I have my choice I always reach for the remote first. 

The app has a lot better interface for getting to menu items and such but for session to session operation and basic engine running I can watch the layout and the engine when operating much easier because I can feel the controls.

I think the technology represented by LionChief/LionChief+/Bluetooth is likely the most typical future for locomotive control as it requires no expensive intermediary devices like the Legacy base or TIU.  No wi-fi devices.  Cheap and reliable.  All new Legacy locos are going to come with the ability to run in conventional, Legacy/TMCC and Bluetooth.  For complex layouts the wi-fi may be a good thing, but for most people, Bluetooth and the universal remote or some similar device is going to be just fine. 

Batteries?  Will appeal to some, or as an adjunct, but don't think they will replace simple 110 volt track voltage from the wall outlet for most people.  Current lithium polymer batteries are not going to take the world by storm in this application is my guess. Maybe new battery technologies will do so (nice article in Science about next gen zinc batteries).

 

Batteries?  Will appeal to some, or as an adjunct, but don't think they will replace simple 110 volt track voltage from the wall outlet for most people.  Current lithium polymer batteries are not going to take the world by storm in this application is my guess. Maybe new battery technologies will do so (nice article in Science about next gen zinc batteries).

Whoa there... 110v track voltage???  Yikes!!! 

But seriously folks.  Batteries have their uses and they will be fine model trains for some folks.  However, I don't think it will replace track power 100%. 

Rusty

When..lionel ..mth.. And others..buy stock in batteries..you'll know where it's going...

I would think.. Wheels and axles would need to be redesigned..for the load. Ball or needle bearings..which would add cost..

Super caps..will be used I think.  That can be recharged ..as train runs...

Years ago I wrote lionel about making a generator car ..with generator operating off axle. With gear reduction.

Even full size trains..could make wheels into generator s.

 https://youtu.be/BPbMpI8qF_s

I would hook my hearing aids to PoHo 180s if possible. Batteries I reckon not. As regards the Webmaster and using his smart phone as a controller, I bet he is still flying airplanes with magnetos.

Landsteiner posted:

I think the technology represented by LionChief/LionChief+/Bluetooth is likely the most typical future for locomotive control as it requires no expensive intermediary devices like the Legacy base or TIU.  No wi-fi devices.  Cheap and reliable.  All new Legacy locos are going to come with the ability to run in conventional, Legacy/TMCC and Bluetooth.  For complex layouts the wi-fi may be a good thing, but for most people, Bluetooth and the universal remote or some similar device is going to be just fine. 

Batteries?  Will appeal to some, or as an adjunct, but don't think they will replace simple 110 volt track voltage from the wall outlet for most people.  Current lithium polymer batteries are not going to take the world by storm in this application is my guess. Maybe new battery technologies will do so (nice article in Science about next gen zinc batteries).

Totally opposite take - the simple knob controllers will never be the favorite of the hobby/enthusiast side - those are fine for kids or entry sets.

But people with layouts are going to want more robust systems. And Lionel went the wrong way with Bluetooth and apple-only releases - although they say android is on the way.

MTH seems to be attempting a bigger move.

No manufacturer is going to prefer a hardware controller to software. Think about that - nothing to manufacture - nothing to ship. And you can make changes and improvements after the sale. Products can be improved based on user feedback.

That said - people are discounting the idea of surface controller products - operating via wi-fi - its just an encoder. Imagine wireless ZW format controller...if you like kind of handle. Doesnt even have to wireless really - just ethernet it to the network. The analogy being the steering wheel controller for your kids video game.

I think real loco throttles are sort of unglamorous - so perhaps hard to make a cool controller out of it. Maybe there are some cool ones.

One last opinion - the Conventional market is probably the biggest target for conversion to these systems. I think the DCS Explorer is MTH making a play for the conventional runners. A single device that allows you to continue your conventional running - but brings the consumer into the DCS ecosystem. You can't do that with LionChief.

 As for batteries - the tech is already there - but  I think there overall weight of complications will prevent this from happening - at least for indoor O. They are heavy, take up space - and unless properly engineered - dangerous! Witness all the hoverboard fires. As someone else pointed out - serious implementation of battery power might require a whole new generation of motor build.

Reading all these posts about the future of the Hobby. I am what most would consider a "millennial" being 30 years old. I enjoy running trains with the DCS and Legacy system. I do have a xbox but I got bored playing that. I would much rather build something like a train layout. Another problem that is coming with my age group is a lot of them are on the move constantly I have moved at least 4 times in 4 years. I bought a house a couple years ago where I can set up a train layout. I really enjoy seeing steam engines running in real life and on my layout most of my engines are steam engines. I did have a HO size starter set but that wasn't as much fun, I for one like the sounds the engine make, that was only put it more recent engines. I am showing my five year old my layout and he enjoys watching them go.

Roving Sign posted:

No manufacturer is going to prefer a hardware controller to software. Think about that - nothing to manufacture - nothing to ship. And you can make changes and improvements after the sale. Products can be improved based on user feedback.

I agree with that statement 100%.  Smart business.  There is no doubt in my mind that this is where I'd be going.  Change is difficult, even for me as I stated I prefer the feel of buttons, knobs, and thumb wheels but I understand the need to move forward.  We gripe, moan, and kick our feet but eventually we adapt.

One thought is where battery power is perhaps the most necessary is with G Gauge.  Yet I wonder what the percentage of G Gauge operators is battery vs. track power.

Rusty

So, we want a system that is compatible with traditional 3-rail, doesn't need wires or batteries, no complicated controls to learn?

Fellow O-gaugers, I give you the future...

All you need is the key to start it!

juniata guy posted:

I guess if a model railroader survives the eventual apocalypse, battery powered trains will give him something to do during the long cold nights without electricity.  ;-)

Curt

 

Batteries have to be either charged or replaced.  With out juice, your done, and if batteries were all you had, I doubt you would waste them on trains.  I'd prefer to have something like a wind generator, or better yet,  a steam powered generator

MARX made battery operated trains in the 40-50s