Future of the hobby

I wonder if the average consumer, who buys a set for around the tree, will see batteries as a feature which adds value.

Think about it. What makes battery powered devices so nice? They're portable. I don't see portability being of any use when your oval of track is set up on the floor in the living room. What makes battery powered devices annoying? Somehow you always forget to charge them. So you would be adding the annoyance of batteries without the benefits.

Certainly, for people who are planning to build immense layouts, or who want to build outside, not needing to worry about wiring and conductivity would be a bonus. But those are not most people.

I could see battery power eventually coming in as the new standard at the high end of the market, especially among modelers, whose nostalgia is for real trains, not toy trains. They will not be disturbed by the fact that their childhood trains are useless on new layouts built for battery power, which will inevitably have two rail track. But I don't think battery power will take the starter set market by storm anytime soon, unless it gets to the point that robust batteries are less expensive for the manufacturer than the little wall wart transformers.

But I don't think battery power will take the starter set market by storm anytime soon, unless it gets to the point that robust batteries are less expensive for the manufacturer than the little wall wart transformers.

The consumer would still need a charger. The cheap chargers I have are based on a wall wart.

Days of future past:

Bachmann's first G Gauge set was battery powered with RC control.

About a decade or two ago New Brite was selling battery powered sets with infra-red control.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Days of future past:

Bachmann's first G Gauge set was battery powered with RC control.

About a decade or two ago New Brite was selling battery powered sets with infra-red control.

Rusty

Yes, I had one of the B'mann Big Haulers RC sets to set under the tree at Christmas. Battery power was great for that. No wires, no worries about metal ornaments or stuff falling on the track. Perfect setup for newbies as well. For occasional use as a Carpet Central it would be great. Again no wires to trip over. Any kid who can drive an RC car can drive the train.

Too much worry... but its fun so I'll add my two-cents as well .

The plethora of products at different price points with newer technologies means the market is strong - Lionel must be making good money for now, because they have the cash to put into product development.

As to the future tech, I look where Lionel seems to be going, with Legacy plus Lionchief, both supporting power on the rails.  Lionel is into the "plug and play" that uses the track as a power bus to support operating accessories.   No frustrating battery power except in the remotes (which have intelligent power management).   So I think Lionel sees the advantages for the user and convenience in setting up a layout,  and for marketing to  the consumer, and will continue with power on the rails.   Both MTH and Lionel have added phone app train controllers as everyone knows, which is compatible with this technology stream.

There are other manufacturers of course, an exception on my current layout are my Menard's very nice and reasonable price buildings.   They use their own wall-wart power supplies, which means their own wires to install, but perhaps they can even be adapted to take power from the rails.   There are perhaps existing power modules that will do the trick ... I need to look into this before I run any more wires!   

The conversation to this point has made me wonder if battery-power might be a good new way of lighting-up buildings and streetlights on a layout. If battery power became so much more dependable (and they fix that bursting-into-flames thing afflicting iphones and hoverboards!) it might be advantageous to have a battery source in one spot, or at various emplacements, that gave power to individual scenic sights on a layout? Individually illuminated buildings via batteries? Whole neighborhoods battery lighted, somehow? Above my experience, learning, and pay-grade, but you guys got me thinking....

OGR Webmaster posted:

StPaul posted:

...and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support...

Spend just 10 minutes running a train with your smart phone or iPad and you will NEVER want to use a DCS remote again.

I have played with the app not in the least bit interested in flipping screens or using an IPhone or Ipad its just not my cup of tea.

hmmm lets see rich first we need the app costs what $50 ? and then the DCS WiFi  @ $180 and then the DCS Acc interface @ $120 and then a TIU @ $200 now an 32 gig apple ipad  wi-fi only $600 that comes to $1100 plus taxes

now a DCS remote setup a whopping $350 plus taxes. or a oh my gosh a plain jane transformer that needs no Wi-Fi no remote has great play value for less $.......

like I said in early post to each there own personally all I see is the manufactures making more money to do same thing you can do now with the remote and best part its already bought and paid for at less cost to the end user!

Ill say one thing this thread  has created a lot of chatter!!

StPaul posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

StPaul posted:

...and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support...

Spend just 10 minutes running a train with your smart phone or iPad and you will NEVER want to use a DCS remote again.

hmmm lets see rich first we need the app costs what $50 ? and then the DCS WiFi  @ $180 and then the DCS Acc interface @ $120 and then a TIU @ $200 now an 32 gig apple ipad  wi-fi only $600 that comes to $1100 plus taxes

now a DCS remote setup a whopping $350 plus taxes. or a oh my gosh a plain jane transformer that needs no Wi-Fi no remote has great play value for less $.......

 I think the new DCS Explorer has MSRP of $129.00 - download the free app - and start running trains.

Again I am not thrilled about battery powered. If it does end going battery powered then whats the sense of having 3 rails???

I have garden trains but I can not justify the $600 to wire up one engine and control unit to a battery. Yes the prices will come down. Battery power might be the way to go it is coming in the future to cars, power tools, my neighbor has a battery powered lawnmower but it has a tough time slugging thru a heavy grass. 

There is ONE THING I really loves about all this tech stuff......I pick up all the old tech for pennies on the dollar!!! I run conventional only and now own top end transformers that I'd never bought back in the day but now to cheap to pass up. I'll stick with my toggle switches and high amp traditional transformers. But that's just me......

"I think the new DCS Explorer has MSRP of $129.00 - download the free app - and start running trains."

The point about Lionel's approach is that you buy a LionChief, LionChief+ or Legacy locomotive, you don't invest any additional dollars, you download the Bluetooth app and run trains.  No additional costs, no fuss. Compatibility with conventional (except for LionChief) comes with each loco, as does a remote for either the LionChief and LionChief + loco.  That saves you $130 or $300 or so from the getgo if you don't want the additional features of Legacy or DCS system route controls, switch controls, etc.  Bluetooth is a direct radio frequency link that requires no interfaces with wi-fi, TIU or LCS/Legacy base.  A solid RF link in my experience, even more reliable than TMCC, and certainly more reliable than the older DCS systems I've worked with.

"You can't do that with LionChief."

You don't need to.  If you decide to go with something beyond the Bluetooth app, the LionChief loco will still work in any command environment, including TMCC/Legacy or DCS.  No need to spring for the initial $400 MTH set and the Explorer unless you want to upfront.  And the LionChief loco and its remote will operate fine if you ultimately spring for Legacy, or the Explorer and DCS, no additional equipment needed.  You can add a Lionel LionChief, LionChief + or Legacy loco with Bluetooth to any Legacy or MTH/DCS layout without additional equipment.  That's not true of adding a PS3 loco to a Legacy layout, where you need to spring for the Explorer or DCS to have command capability.  Cost advantage and  flexibility advantage to Bluetooth,  it would seem to me.

The KISS and keep it inexpensive principles favor the seemingly more complex and diverse Lionel product line because they don't assume everyone is going to have a 200 square foot layout with full digital control. Probably 90% of set buyers settle for around the tree or a simple 4 x 8 layout.

Battery power, as long as its inexpensive and simple, may succeed, but right now, the opposite is true.

dukeofnuke posted:

Affordable? How does $1300.00 for an engine sound to a child? Want the rest of the train ? Try an extra $1200.00. Try that on your paper route money. This is 2017, not 1952. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lionel has priced out the newcomers in this hobby. The light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train!

After giving it some thought, trains will become affordable one way or another.  When our generation has completely passed there will be buckets of trains on the market at affordable prices.  Supply will far exceed the demand=low prices. Companies like Menards will pitch in with lower priced rolling stock and accessories. Hobbies will always be with us, cars, firearms, antiques and trains. There will always be a collector looking to buy and/or restore the old items. Younger people will not be part of the new train enthusiasts but as they raise children, advance to middle age; that's the time they will look to have a hobby.  As for buying new, that may not happen. I have great hope that there will be a new generation of train enthusiasts. Mys sons now age 33 and 31 seem to like dads basement layout. There is some talk about preserving it after I'm in the box. Only time will tell.

StPaul posted:

I have played with the app not in the least bit interested in flipping screens or using an IPhone or Ipad its just not my cup of tea.

Nor mine.

I get that plenty of people are just fine and dandy using their cell phones for everything (except actually talking to people, oddly), but I’m not one of them. I’m not some old coot; at least not yet as I’m a few years shy of 50, but I like using my cell for as little as possible. Sure, it’s great for the internet and I use it a lot for that, but 99.9999999% of my apps go unused. I also refuse to be involved in ‘social media’ other than hobby-related forums like this.

Then there’s the connection issue. My DCC is hard-wired to the layout with long cables. I never have to worry about wi-fi causing problems running trains.

“The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.”

-Scotty; Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

My crystal ball says:  some folks will move to completely 3D printing their own shells and cars -- assembling the works at home on the bench, and installing their own 3rd party or home-brew electronic solutions to run it on the layout.  This will become more common in the years ahead & be considered fun.  

Meanwhile the traditional train manufacturers will continue to and increasingly cater to the high end part of the market as the used and home brew solutions eat the middle.  In so doing the supply chain may be both shortened and more customization offered for a price of course to differentiate one high end loco from another.

Meanwhile, extremely cheaply made toy train sets will show up in regular "big box" retailers -- these will be made by "the world toy company" not the train manufacturers & be marketed to kids at a price point a parent will cave in on in a walk down the isle looking for something else...

MartyE posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

StPaul posted:

...and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support...

Spend just 10 minutes running a train with your smart phone or iPad and you will NEVER want to use a DCS remote again.

I have and as well done as the MTH app is, I prefer a hardware remote.  I can feel everything I want to do.  I know the remote is going away so I'll embrace the new technology and I actually predicted the remotes demise, but if I have my choice I always reach for the remote first. 

The app has a lot better interface for getting to menu items and such but for session to session operation and basic engine running I can watch the layout and the engine when operating much easier because I can feel the controls.

Agreed; I prefer the remote control in hand. I am fine with the Iphone until my phone starts ringing off the hook as it normally does even with my phone muted, its bothersome. So I'll have to switch to a non remote my Ipad.

Dennis wrote: Hobbies will always be with us, cars, firearms, antiques and trains. There will always be a collector looking to buy and/or restore the old items. Younger people will not be part of the new train enthusiasts but as they raise children, advance to middle age; that's the time they will look to have a hobby.  As for buying new, that may not happen.

I could not agree more.

Furthermore, there really isn't anything much that can be done about it. Not opening private train shows to the public, not creating new technology like wireless trains or swinging bells.
As for buying new, why does anybody who isn't in the business of making or selling new care?

I think its great that the manufacturers are stepping up to bring people the high tech features they want. I don't think they are necessary to save the hobby.

Dewey Trogdon posted:

Like CW Burfle I would, if still here, stick with the strong juice. On the other hand there are already folks looking for investors in new and better battery development, recycling and disposal. Easier and cheaper probably for toy train operation but not efficient enough for many. But it will follow the money as always.

Will there be a standard size like the "C" or "D" we have now. Anyone notice every single cell phone in the world seems to have a unique size battery?

Train Nut posted:

My days of buying new stuff are coming to an end now with bluetooth etc.  Not interested and not paying the price in both upfront cash and future problems with more electronic gadgets to break....    Ive got plenty of older stuff to keep me happy...   

That would be a big worry, backwards compatibility. Will it be like Windows where an XP machine cannot use 10 software?

colorado hirailer posted:

Not resistant to new technology....THAT WORKS BETTER AND LASTS LONGER, AND IS UNIVERSAL...trade cars in without touching fuel injection... don't miss frequent carburetor rebuilds..  l could picture a universal system that compromised...maybe traditional track power with battery backup to get you over dirty track. Otherwise, l will remain a reactionary.

Fuel injection made life simpler for many. Sadly direct injection cars are now having issues with the intake valve and seats not being cleaned by the gasoline as before since they only "see" air.

rtr12 posted:

Battery power just doesn't do much for me, I think it would be a big PITA. Charging, replacing, running out of power in the middle of a running session, etc. I like track power and will stick with it as long as I can. Wifi in the trains might be of more interest. I am slowly adjusting ti Wifi control, but honestly I still prefer the DCS and Legacy remotes for now. I do like the electronics and command control though, it's what really got my interests up enough to get back in the hobby a few years ago. I don't believe any of this will happen over night though, I think it will be a gradual transition to whatever we end up with. Conventional operation will probably still be around for a long time too. That's part of the versatility of the hobby, something for everyone, even in the way you operate your trains.

Wi-Fi is cool on a fancy, easily read HD screen though most guests prefer the remote as once they get the "feel" for the buttons they never look at it any more, especially when we run lights out night time operations. Other than maybe a cursory glance like a guitar player at her/his chord hand now & then.

Hudson J1e posted:

dukeofnuke posted:

Like it or not, we are all getting older. Our children do not understand our facination with "vintage" trains because they never saw one in real life. The " newer generation" wants low maintenance toys. To get them interested in the hobby is a major accomplishment in itself. Pre war and postwar Lionel will become fodder in the not to distant future. To keep this hobby alive we all must accept technological advancements, for better or worse, or the hobby will die.

A lot of guys say this about never seeing a steam engine in real life (in revenue service) but I never saw a steam locomotive in revenue service and I love them. I can't get enough of them. Many, many (thousands-No hundreds of thousands) of children have seen a steam locomotive in real life. Just not in revenue service but in excursion service such as the Strasburg RR. Whether it is the "Day Out with Thomas" weekend or just a regular day at the Strasburg RR children see steam engines. As Dennis mentioned above the "Day Out with Thomas" at Strasburg is so crowded they have to use a field down the road for parking and bus people to the RR. The problem is once these kids hit the video game age a very, very large percentage of them forget all about trains. My guess is as to the reason they forget about trains is that their parents have no interest in railroading. Also for the parent to foster an interest in model railroading for their 6 or 7 year old they would have to PARTICIPATE in the hobby. Isn't it a lot easier to turn on a video game system?

Having just entered the hobby at 34 years old with my 7 year old son  I would say much of this is true.  Thomas brought him in to trains but museums and other events have helped to sustain his interest.  We have taken a few trips where he has gotten to see live steam in action but neither he nor I have ever seen mainline steam, yet in his book steam is king.  The ethos of Thomas also seem to reinforce this idea where all the diesel characters are naughty or mean spirited.   Sustaining his interest in the hobby means active participation on my part.  At times his interest as waned when he gets tired of "watching the trains run in a loop".  It has taken work on my part to pique his interest with building model buildings from kits where he gets to help paint portions. I've started buying pre-war and post-war engine that need work and then I hand him the screw driver and tell him what to do for easier tasks like disassembly.  Teaching techniques like soldering when he gets older seem like the next steps for me but this requires knowledge on my part and time to invest which some parents may not have or be willing to commit.  

As to the future of the hobby I can see just starting out how there are significant barriers.  Lionel has some great starter sets with remotes for a reasonable price.  My son and I love the lionchief plus engines as well.  What frustrates me the most is the fragmentation in control systems as you move up in price.  I hate when we go to shows or look at the catalog and my son gets excited about a product only to find out we have no way to run it and the cost to purchase the system is significant and is not compatible with the competitors engines without purchase of MORE equipment.  Bluetooth is the future if it allows me to run any brand train on our layout without buying more equipment.  Most young users have access to some sort of device that could download an app.  My son was drooling over the MTH railking hiawatha.  It's a no go at this point as we only have a post-war lionel zw and I don't want to invest in what it would take.  

I also hope that the future of the hobby is found in places like Menard's.  We struggled to find readily available rolling stock at affordable prices until I discovered Menards had train items. We have no hobby shop closer than a two hour drive. Our entire layout was made using Menards track.  My only wish is that switches were also available at a more affordable price.  How great would it be to walk in to Menard's at Christmas time and see a fully functional display layout made completely with Menard's products; engines, switches, track, rolling stock and all?

I feel the future to the hobby has more to do with visibility and pricing then aging baby boomers. Thomas has help a lot, but the youth needs to see trains either full size, live steam or model/toy trains or videos otherwise they don't know about them.  Growing up the only time I saw trains was at Disneyland /Knott Berry farm, Live steam parks or a toy store/hobby shop and sometimes on TV there was no main line near my house.  The only reason I had trains is my mom gave me a Marx battery powered set for Christmas when I was 4.  

My son wouldn't even know about train if it weren't for my interest. He would of never seen one.

You don't see them advertised to the public any more, most toy stores, if they have any trains at all are cheap quality and break the save day. The only way to find about them now is searching the internet, but they need to know about them or see them to be able to search for them.

Andy you forgot the best part...it doesn't cost $2000

C W Burfle posted:

Ah, well, the naysayers will abound.  And mortality will claim many of us before such 'heresy' gains a foothold in the less-than-largest-scales model railroading market.  

Naysayers? - I see people, such as myself, saying they have no interest. Is there a problem with that?
If you want all that gunk..... great. Don't try to tell me what I want.

C.W.....

Wha'???  

How is this "telling" you what you want??  I thought this was a discussion about "The Future of the Hobby", for which no one has anything more than an opinion.  

And, as I suggested, I may not be around to see battery-powered model railroad trains of the 1:48 (or, even 1:87) variety so that this idea might fall into the same "" as....

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."...Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943

"Television won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night." ...Darryl Zanuck, executive at 20th Century Fox, 1946

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."...Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977

"Almost all of the many predictions now being made about 1996 hinge on the Internet's continuing exponential growth. But I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse."...Robert Metcalfe, founder of 3Com, 1995

"Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time.  Nobody will use it ever"...Thomas Edison 1889

etc., etc., etc..

Oh, and BTW, even though I converted one large scale LGB engine to battery power using the RCS America technology just for the experience/satisfaction of trying it, I would NEVER forsake my O3R accumulation for any....and I do mean ANY...advent of a commercial battery-powered entry into this category.  

I simply have decided it's foolish...for me, at least...to deny any associated technology advancement into my beloved hobby.  It will be a very fun experience should when it happens....even though I probably won't be here to be a part of it.

You know......that mortality thing.

Peace.

KD

Hudson J1e posted:

As Dennis mentioned above the "Day Out with Thomas" at Strasburg is so crowded they have to use a field down the road for parking and bus people to the RR. The problem is once these kids hit the video game age a very, very large percentage of them forget all about trains. My guess is as to the reason they forget about trains is that their parents have no interest in railroading.

I’m glad you brought up Thomas. People so often use that an example of how the hobby will never die. But as you pointed out, how many future model railroaders will be able to say that Thomas got them into the hobby? My nephew is in the generation that loved Thomas and has a little boy of his own now. I’m certain he has zero interest in trains today.

That said, I doubt even then it’s that simple.

We live in a culture now where the kids dictate what the parents will do, not the other way around it was in most families for countless generations. That being the case, if the kids maintained the enthusiasm for trains, I fully believe the parents would support it.

We have a culture as well where the kids are supposed to have every waking moment occupied by activities. Sports, music/dance lessons, the parents now spend every moment away from their jobs taking the kids hither and yon for these reasons. To not do so appears to be unacceptable for parents who so badly worry how they’re judged by other parents (which, in previous generations, was a peripheral concern, if that). Model trains don’t fit into this, I think. I’d love to know how this culture of “keep them busy every moment” came from as that would NEVER have flown in my generation (I’m 47). Now trusting the kids to be alone at home for any reason? Bragging rights? Guilt for not being around when both parents work? Beats me.

But it’s not a culture that would lend itself to supporting a hobby where the kid could be left at home with kits and rolling stock.

I bet if forums were available back in the fifties, the posts would mirror all of these posts. 

Rod Miller

handyandy posted:

So, we want a system that is compatible with traditional 3-rail, doesn't need wires or batteries, no complicated controls to learn?

Fellow O-gaugers, I give you the future...

All you need is the key to start it!

If you guys don't want any of your tinplate or "non battery", "non wifi" "conventional trains, I'll take them off your hands for you. May even give you a song and a dance for them.

Seriously, this stuff? Way of the future. Wonder what they'd be like with today's tech and high quality materials? Might even be able to make a "diminishing coal load" out of some kind of gearbox design?

AMCDave posted:

There is ONE THING I really loves about all this tech stuff......I pick up all the old tech for pennies on the dollar!!! I run conventional only and now own top end transformers that I'd never bought back in the day but now to cheap to pass up. I'll stick with my toggle switches and high amp traditional transformers. But that's just me......

HEAR! HEAR!

rthomps posted:

dukeofnuke posted:

Affordable? How does $1300.00 for an engine sound to a child? Want the rest of the train ? Try an extra $1200.00. Try that on your paper route money. This is 2017, not 1952. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lionel has priced out the newcomers in this hobby. The light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train!

Certainly not true.

Check out the OTHER trains Lionel makes.

Not trying to start a battle here but Lionel has always had its expensive trains. A 700E scale Hudson steam locomotive in 1937 was $75 dollars. Very comparable in price to a Vision or other high end locomotive today.  Using the consumer price index & adjusting for inflation that 1937 700E would be $1200 in today's monies give or take. $75 in the depression in 1937 was a ton of $$$ cash.

Batteries to run trains will be the norm.  If we think about most electronics today many run on batteries.  This will seem normal to most people, and will simplify laying track, no wiring.  Many people feel intimidated by the wiring aspect of the hobby, this move to batteries and open wireless interface like Bluetooth or wifi matches people paradigm of today's tech.

People charge batteries to much of what they do, laptops, phones, cordless power tools, just about everything.

I still love 3 rail, so with this talk of batteries what advantage would 3 rail have? Wiring?  None? Reverse loops etc? Tight curves? None. Blind drivers could be kept and run on 2 rail O scale track via battery? The world of 3 rail as we currently know it would be taken over by the small minority of rivet counters we call 2 rail O scale. I would belong to the "O scale forum". But then again I live in the here and now, so back to my 3 rail. NO CHICKEN LITTLE, just thinking out loud.

Rich883 posted:

Batteries to run trains will be the norm.  If we think about most electronics today many run on batteries.  This will seem normal to most people, and will simplify laying track, no wiring.  Many people feel intimidated by the wiring aspect of the hobby, this move to batteries and open wireless interface like Bluetooth or wifi matches people paradigm of today's tech.

People charge batteries to much of what they do, laptops, phones, cordless power tools, just about everything.

 

 

Why would you think batteries will be the norm? Lol - I want

to get rid of batteries in everything 

I am concerned about MTH Trains, discontinuing their Hand Held Controller. At the end of 2017.

Item #50-1002

Gary

shawn posted:

Rich883 posted:

Batteries to run trains will be the norm.  If we think about most electronics today many run on batteries.  This will seem normal to most people, and will simplify laying track, no wiring.  Many people feel intimidated by the wiring aspect of the hobby, this move to batteries and open wireless interface like Bluetooth or wifi matches people paradigm of today's tech.

People charge batteries to much of what they do, laptops, phones, cordless power tools, just about everything.

 

 

Why would you think batteries will be the norm? Lol - I want

to get rid of batteries in everything 

My point is that if you ask most people today, who are not train people, or younger people they believe the norm is for most electronics to have batteries.  this is because most things they use are battery operated, mobile phone, iPad or  tablet, laptop, MP3 player, most portable power tools, gps device.... Just about everything.  Even if you are in a hobby, most RC toys are battery operated.

Almost nothing people use require electrical wiring to work, especially striping wires, soldering or crimping connectors. Most everything is plug and play.

i personally have no issue wiring, and I enjoy it, but many people I know who find trains interesting find the entire editing intimidating.

shawn posted:

Rich883 posted:

Batteries to run trains will be the norm.  If we think about most electronics today many run on batteries.  This will seem normal to most people, and will simplify laying track, no wiring.  Many people feel intimidated by the wiring aspect of the hobby, this move to batteries and open wireless interface like Bluetooth or wifi matches people paradigm of today's tech.

People charge batteries to much of what they do, laptops, phones, cordless power tools, just about everything.

 

 

Why would you think batteries will be the norm? Lol - I want

to get rid of batteries in everything 

I believe there is a huge amount of research being conducted by scientists and engineers , in contemporary life, worldwide, which is searching for ways to have vehicles totally powered by batteries.

FrankM

How is this "telling" you what you want??  I thought this was a discussion about "The Future of the Hobby", for which no one has anything more than an opinion.  

By calling people who aren't interested for themselves "Naysayers".
Who said the stuff shouldn't be made?
Most of us said we had no interest,
I still don't.
I don't see where my lack of interest in Lionel's Vison line has stopped them from making it.

 Wow, a whole lot to think about in this thread. I'm really not too good with tech, so bear with me a minute. I'm going to need batteries to power my locomotive, batteries to power the lights in my passenger cars, and batteries to power my operating cars - some of us still like those. I will need batteries to power the lights in all of my buildings, and street lights, and trackside accessories. I didn't see it mentioned in here, but I assume I will need batteries to power my track switches so my trains don't just run in circles.

 I'm just curious: How many On/Off buttons do I need to push, and how many batteries do I need to charge?

Rich883 posted:

Batteries to run trains will be the norm.  If we think about most electronics today many run on batteries.  This will seem normal to most people, and will simplify laying track, no wiring.  Many people feel intimidated by the wiring aspect of the hobby, this move to batteries and open wireless interface like Bluetooth or wifi matches people paradigm of today's tech.

People charge batteries to much of what they do, laptops, phones, cordless power tools, just about everything.

 

 

I understand your point but batteries have significant downsides in terms of cost, weight, and charge lifespan.  (By way of disclaimer, I a not a luddite and have a current iPhone and iPad.)

Lifespan:  ever travel and see everyone huddled around the plug in stations at the airports?  How about the cars all plugged in at the parking garages?  While batteries have improved, their ability to hold charge for extended uses is a problem, as these realities indicate.  I don't want to deal with this when it comes to trains, and there is no need to do so when limitless electrical power is available at an outlet next to the layout.  Mobile devices lack this advantage and need to be portable so it is a different application.  Even then, however, the need for reliable power is best illustrated when there are free outlets at a travel point and you see everyone huddled around, desperate to recharge their mobile devices, which seem to perpetually be low on power.

Quality non-rechargeable batteries would be a significant expense, as would the power for all the accessories.  And if you are going to run the accessories off of household current, then why not the tracks too?  Quaility rechargeable battteries are also costly, but more efficient.  However, their performance declines over time.  Again, not an issue on a device such as a smart phone or tablet with a 3-5 year useful lifespan.  More of an issue for an electric car that has not yet been realized by the market because the people buying Teslas are not keeping them beyond the lease period.  Normal people who drive a car for 10-15 years will be put off by the prospect of dealing with a declining battery pack when replacement costs as much as a motor / transmission overhaul on a internal combustion vehicle.  (Note the Prius hybrids and other hybrids avoid this issue because the internal combustion motor picks up the proverbial slack, at a cost to fuel efficiency but at least the car doesn't become a paperweight.)

Batteries are heavy and large if they will have any substantial lifespan.  Space inside a locomotive is at a premium.  An iPhone battery would likely last two minutes inside of a modern twin motored locomotive.  You can tether the batteries in the consist but this is unwieldy.

All a long way of saying that this hobby will certainly change, but I am far from convinced that batteries will be that future.  I think the downsides they present at present and in the medium term outweigh their benefits in this application.

So very well said.

Lifespan:  ever travel and see everyone huddled around the plug in stations at the airports?  How about the cars all plugged in at the parking garages?  While batteries have improved, their ability to hold charge for extended uses is a problem, as these realities indicate.  I don't want to deal with this when it comes to trains, and there is no need to do so when limitless electrical power is available at an outlet next to the layout.

On the other hand, my lithium battery powered tools have yet to loose their charge while sitting unused. After owning them for several years, the batteries are still good. They charge fairly quickly. They run a long time and have plenty of power.  If there is an issue with exploding batteries, I have not heard of them. Many tools use the same packs. And I can still get packs for my oldest lithium battery tools. They are still making tools that use them. (Too bad the packs are not standardized across brands)

I was not always a fan of cordless tools. The batteries in my NiCad yard tools never had that much power and after only a couple of years, they will not hold a charge. They also loose their charge just sitting. And one company kept changing their power pack designs.

I still see no benefit in battery operated trains for me, and would not buy.
To each their own.

I love my 3 rail trains. Reading some comments, Battery technology is zooming faster then I can type in this response in terms of longevity and power and small size. The batteries of today are much better and lighter then even 5-10 years ago. The radio control crowd has been operating their advanced aircraft, and now drones on batteries for years along with model race cars etc. Are you really going to run your trains 8-12 hours straight? Thats how long my Ipad or Chromebook runs without a charge. Will trains have the same battery life? no but even a couple of hours is significant.

Think about it. I just do not know what will become of the 3 rails in the future- again what will the advantage be for 3 rails that we all enjoy??  This will not happen overnight by any means. The HO crowd I was reading in another online magazine is already calling it Dead rail- using small and powerful batteries to run their HO locomotives, its early in the development but I believe we might expect to see more of this. G scale has utilized battery technology for 15+ years now.

Seacoast posted:

The HO crowd I was reading in another online magazine is already calling it Dead rail- using small and powerful batteries to run their HO locomotives, its early in the development but I believe we might expect to see more of this. G scale has utilized battery technology for 15+ years now.

With all the shorting issues 2 Rail has due to power routing switches and/or reversing loops I can fully understand why they would welcome dead rail. Been there, done that, never going back...

Scrambler81 posted:

 Wow, a whole lot to think about in this thread. I'm really not too good with tech, so bear with me a minute. I'm going to need batteries to power my locomotive, batteries to power the lights in my passenger cars, and batteries to power my operating cars - some of us still like those. I will need batteries to power the lights in all of my buildings, and street lights, and trackside accessories. I didn't see it mentioned in here, but I assume I will need batteries to power my track switches so my trains don't just run in circles.

 I'm just curious: How many On/Off buttons do I need to push, and how many batteries do I need to charge?

Good point.