Gargraves vs Fastrack Economics

@Strummer posted:

I suspect it's partly due to the big metal wheels on 3 rail rolling stock. Some of my HO and most of my N scale wheels are plastic; so a combination of size and material has to be taken into account when discussing noise levels, I guess... 🙂

Good thread.

Mark in Oregon

Nope. It is because Lionel "Fastrack" has a hollow plastic base structure, pretty similar to the MTH plastic based track, that is ideal for laying track on the living room floor. For a more permanent layout, neither of those types of track systems are "quiet", since the hollow plastic tie structure is VERY noisy.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, that all looks like Gargraves for sure, nice bunch of track.  If it has stiffeners under the ties, it's not flex track.  If there are no little stiffeners running the length of the track, it is probably flex track.

Here's non-flex straight track, note the runners near the end of the ties.

Here's flex track, note no runners to keep it straight.

FWIW, I used a lot of flex track as straight sections, worked fine.

I really appreciate your help John. I thought about bringing a piece up to you but this might be easier. Here is a slightly used section.

@Hot Water posted:

Nope. It is because Lionel "Fastrack" has a hollow plastic base structure, pretty similar to the MTH plastic based track, that is ideal for laying track on the living room floor. For a more permanent layout, neither of those types of track systems are "quiet", since the hollow plastic tie structure is VERY noisy.

Oh, I get that.

My mentioning the Kato products was simply drawing a comparison in  the smaller scales. You can notice the difference in sound between Kato's and, say, a non-roadbed type, like Atlas' "regular" type track. 🙂

Now that I think about it, I bet Marklin track shows similar characteristics...

Mark in Oregon

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

A major factor in my noise reduction was the 1/2" Homasote on top of the Baltic Birch, not to mention the foam roadbed.  Both added up to really knocking down the noise level.

Ditto on the Homasote & Foam Roadbed... whisper quiet.

Additionally, I didn't drive the track screws through to the plywood... the screws go into the Homasote and holds the track in place ...nothing has moved.   Please correct me If I am wrong here (testing recall) but I believe Marty Fitzhenry attached his track in this fashion (screws into Homasote) on his astonishing layout and nothing moved over decades.  It's a lot easier to drive screws into Homasote than plywood.

I've been running Fastrack for years. I've thought about switching to GG and Ross Switches, but the reality is it would be a major undertaking to change it and I couldn't afford it.

Hello There Again,

WOW....  What a response, I am humbled by EVERYBODY'S thoughts & experience. THANK YOU.

Just want to further input some queries I have regarding the track options I am considering.  I am trying to do a cost comparison on the two & have no problem with pricing on the Fastrack items on the layout. However I do have some questions with Gargraves track & Ross switches before I can get a true idea (& yes I will post the results here on the forum).

• Are Ross switches #150-151 & 160-161 about all I need? As they apparently are used for a 'range' of radii.
• Getting the DZ1000 (or 2500) option, does that also include controllers for these switches or is that an additional cost? I realize these are switch motors but no mention of an actual controller to run the switch.
• Also same question for Tortoise switch machines (I mean a dozen machines for under a hundred bucks!) does that have some kind of controller for operating the switch?
• With phantom flex, are track pins all I need for installation?

As mentioned previously, I realize there is additional 'playtime' building with Gargraves/Ross, that's not an issue.  

I do like some noise of trains rolling but, don't want it so loud that it blocks out the noise from the loco's that have sound & do plan on the use of roadbed no matter which way I go.

Here is the track list from one layout I am considering as you may see it is quite extensive. I am parsing the design to reduce the number of switches & wye's to reduce Fastrack costs but these would be needed for future expansion (& funds availability). As I live in Canada our supply is very limited & any LHS's just don't carry anything for O scale model trains other than some RTR sets (mostly HO), they are into RC cars, planes & drones.  So pretty much all stuff has to be purchased from US sources.

Ric... Also same question for Tortoise switch machines (I mean a dozen machines for under a hundred bucks!) does that have some kind of controller for operating the switch?

Controller... an ON-ON SPDT Toggle Switch of your choice for each machine (one toggle for crossovers i.e., 2 turnouts).  You can run one common ground to all the switch machines.  Each machine also has a couple of additional relays for other functions... signals, power distribution to isolated rails etc.  There are eight contacts points on each machine (you only use 2 to throw the turnout).  I would also add accu-lite connectors to each machine for quick and easy installation and future modifications of the configuration.

"Justaguy"

I am very impressed with your pre-layout building research.

My turn to say "wow" 🙂

Mark in Oregon

PS: back in the '80s, when I heavily into HO, I met a retired (Canadian) watchmaker who was building a layout in the lower level of his house, about 8 miles from here. His attention to detail ( to say nothing of his skills) was a wonderful thing to witness first hand.

I dunno, maybe it's in your genes.  😊

In any case, I look forward to seeing what you come up with...

Ric... use the widest radius turnout possible.  Less stress and smoother transition from through to divergent path.  I have only O72 and #5 turnouts even though my largest radius is O72 and two smaller radius lines.

Also my track is sitting on homasote and plywood.

Great thread, especially for me as I am about to start my new layout build.  I use GG track and switches on cork roadbed on my current, diminutive shelf layout.  All works great, but I will switch to RCS with GG track on my new build.  

As for noise, I used run MTH realtrax (plastic roadbed similar to Fastrack) for the Christmas train around the tree, but found the noise to be super annoying.  I’m sure the noise was exaggerated as the track sat on a hardwood floor with no subroadbed, but my goodness the trains made a racket!  This past year I switched to Menards tubular with much better results in the noise column. Back to GG/RCS, I use cork roadbed.  Noise is not a problem, but then I run short trains at slow speed so my experience is probably not a good gage for the  best approach from a noise perspective.  I do find it curious that even with GG/RCS some tout that running track screws through the roadbed into plywood increases noise.  I remember a thread a while back where someone ran several test configurations and measured the noise for an empirical test.  Track screws into plywood had negligible impact on measured noise levels.  Of the factors that affect noise, it makes sense to me that track and roadbed options are the dominant factors, not track screws.

@Justaguy posted:

Hello There Again,

WOW....  What a response, I am humbled by EVERYBODY'S thoughts & experience. THANK YOU.

Just want to further input some queries I have regarding the track options I am considering.  I am trying to do a cost comparison on the two & have no problem with pricing on the Fastrack items on the layout. However I do have some questions with Gargraves track & Ross switches before I can get a true idea (& yes I will post the results here on the forum).

• Are Ross switches #150-151 & 160-161 about all I need? As they apparently are used for a 'range' of radii.
• Getting the DZ1000 (or 2500) option, does that also include controllers for these switches or is that an additional cost? I realize these are switch motors but no mention of an actual controller to run the switch.
• Also same question for Tortoise switch machines (I mean a dozen machines for under a hundred bucks!) does that have some kind of controller for operating the switch?
• With phantom flex, are track pins all I need for installation?

As mentioned previously, I realize there is additional 'playtime' building with Gargraves/Ross, that's not an issue.  

I do like some noise of trains rolling but, don't want it so loud that it blocks out the noise from the loco's that have sound & do plan on the use of roadbed no matter which way I go.

Here is the track list from one layout I am considering as you may see it is quite extensive. I am parsing the design to reduce the number of switches & wye's to reduce Fastrack costs but these would be needed for future expansion (& funds availability). As I live in Canada our supply is very limited & any LHS's just don't carry anything for O scale model trains other than some RTR sets (mostly HO), they are into RC cars, planes & drones.  So pretty much all stuff has to be purchased from US sources.

Which switches to use will depend on your track plan, but don't limit yourself to the 150 - 160 item numbers. Some of the larger curve switches are not in that group, like 080 and up, and many find the 100/101 switches useful for more than just yards. Again, depends on your track plan.

If you buy Ross switches with either the DZ1000 or DZ2500 they will come with the DZ1001 (I think that's the number) push  button controllers.

In addition to the track pins that come with the track you'll need some #4 x 3/4 screws, preferably black. Ross has these and you can buy the GG track from Ross as well. I found three or four screws will hold a straight section but bending a curve will require at least twice as many, you bend and screw them down in the place you want them. I quickly went through what screws I ordered with the track but found them at McMaster-Carr in black oxide finish. You will have to drill holes in the wooden ties where you want to screw it down.

I have all DZ1000 switch machines and I plan to control them with the buttons mounted close to the switch and they will also be wired to an MTH AIU for remote control. I'm still investigating tortoise machine application myself, but I can't say anything negative about the DZ1000.

I'll throw in another vote for foam roadbed. Even over homasote it makes a big difference. If I turn off engine sounds I can have a normal volume conversation with my wife as the train rolls by at 35 smph.

@Justaguy posted:

• Are Ross switches #150-151 & 160-161 about all I need? As they apparently are used for a 'range' of radii.
• Getting the DZ1000 (or 2500) option, does that also include controllers for these switches or is that an additional cost? I realize these are switch motors but no mention of an actual controller to run the switch.
• Also same question for Tortoise switch machines (I mean a dozen machines for under a hundred bucks!) does that have some kind of controller for operating the switch?
• With phantom flex, are track pins all I need for installation?

I selected the switches based on what I wanted to accomplish.  Truthfully, most of my "standard" path switches are numbered switches vs Oxx switches.  As for the #150-151 and #160-161, those are curved path switches, both routes are curved.  Typically, those wouldn't be the first choice unless you have a specific need in your layout for that function.  Only three of the 30 odd switches on my layout are curved switches, that's because that functionality fit the specific location.  These are used for a specific curve diameter, and it would be highly unusual to see anyone try to build a whole layout using only curved path switches.

Many of my switches are either the #10x 11º or #20x 14º switches, I think those types are probably some of the most popular Ross switches.

I do have three O72 switches where they fit into my plans as well.

Controllers are included for the DZ-1000 or the DZ-2500 switch machines.  The only extra stuff you need for the track installation will be the track pins and screws.  Obviously, you'll also need wire for track power and switch controls.  Finally, don't forget the roadbed...

Tortoise switch machines just use a SPDT toggle switch to control postion, very simple.

Oh, BTW, I think it is safe to say we have seen the last of the Russian multi-layered plywood for quite some time to come. There is a Birch shop plywood that is pretty decent but I think it only comes in 3/4". I'm still looking locally for a good replacement for 1/2" as that is what I need the most of to complete my bench work.

Do you think I have to tear down my layout and get rid of the Baltic Birch?

Something else to consider with switch machines.  There was a thread a year or so ago about momentary, coil fired switch machines which I cannot seem find at the moment.  The discussion concerned the shape, flex and proper tension of the springs to hold the point tight to the stock rail.  This is what moved me to a stall type switch machine... i.e., a stall machines constant power to the virtually straight throw bar as opposed to momentary coil switches which rely on - in most cases - convoluted bends and tensions to hold the point in place when the power is off.  Additionally, while I don't think it happens often momentary switch contacts can and do become stuck closed by defect or accidentally... and, will fry the switch machine.

Not bumming on coil switch machines... just not for me.  Use whatever makes you happy.

I am running FasTrack for my layouts, but I have Atlas-O, Ross, and Lionel Super-O as well that I have played with at times.

IMO, the best feature about FasTrack is the integrated command-control turnouts, taking both power and command from the rails: no wiring needed.  With powered non-derailing routing.  That is the approach I am using for both my O and S layouts.  That feature is worth paying more to me.

The worst feature about FasTrack is the large number of fitter pieces needed to do anything other than a simple layout plan.  $$  And connected to this, are the limitations on the plans possible.  I have found that cutting FasTrack lengths to be a hassle, and difficult to get good results.  I am OK with trimming roadbed to mate FasTrack sections to turnouts without the included 1-3/8" fitters, that is easy and yields decent results.

I also dislike the 6" center-rail spacing of FT, and have to use compound curves, which also means more curved track section pieces.

The noise issue of FasTrack I recognize bothers many, but can be mitigated with a number of ideas discussed on this forum.  OK for me, to each their own.

For me, the Ross track pins don't insert well into the opposing sections - not sure why.

For me, the Atlas-O looks great, but a bit heavy rail.  I have found that the rail can pop out of the spikes and tie plates at times, so care in cutting is needed.

If I was starting to build a "permanent" layout, I'd use Gargraves flex.

For my grandsons (2 and 3), there is nothing better than Fastrack. I can have them setup and running in an hour or less. It is noisy but that has a plus. Its almost like a nap-time white noise machine. The lack of wiring required and non-derailing routing keeps them running trains for hours.

No argument for temporary layouts, that's where Fastrack shines.

With the tortoise switch machine you can wire them with double pole double throw toggle switches and two bicolor LED's that allow you to have a path to follow on your control panel. The instruction sheet that comes with the Tortoise machines is easy to follow and only requires that you know how to solder. When they are installed you have a roadmap to show you that the switches are positioned as you want them. The toggle switches mount through a 1/4 inch hole in your control panel. The fact that the Tortoise machines have a power on stall behavior prevents any derailments. The Tortoise machines are made by the Circuitron Company in Illinois. I believe they are made in America. They have a website which I recommend.

I have close to 250’ of Fastrack with 25 switches on my layout, using plywood,foam, and ceiling tile. I realize it is tough to demonstrate sound level on a video, so I used a decibel app on my phone for qualification. There are three MUs running a total of 45 cars, with engines’ sounds muted, at 25 smph. I rarely run much faster, as I don’t like repetition every 30 seconds. Fastrack is loud under many circumstances, but I have no noise issues with my situation. For reference, 60 to 65 Db is considered normal conversation.

@JohnH your layout looks absolutely fantastic! If you have any additional pics or videos, I'd love to see them. Do you have your track plan in one of the track planning SWs?

I also noticed that an overhead signal changed in your video - how did you get that wired up with Fastrack?

Like the layout. Noise level appears to be pretty low. I am surprised after reading about how loud Fastrack is… obviously it is not here.

@Bill Webb posted:

Like the layout. Noise level appears to be pretty low. I am surprised after reading about how loud Fastrack is… obviously it is not here.

Obviously a LOT depends on what treatment one mounts the Fastrack on. Then again, a LOT of the sound may be lost on any sort of video presentation.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

A far cry from taking a piece of Ross or Gargraves to my chop saw and hacking it at the desired length.

Cutting fastrack is not hard at all, cut it on an angle Bend tabs if they are at the cut or bend them to remove pins. Take pins and heat (just enough to melt plastic) set them in the cut end. If the new end of track has no tabs to hold them then a dab of crazy glue and done. I can now knock off a custom size in about 5 minutes.

@Mike0289 Thanks for the compliment. I ended up with Fastrack because I bought my now 17 year-old grandson a Lionel starter set when he was 2 years old. I was able to acquire used track quite easily, so I stayed with it. Switches are mostly trouble free. I made my own insulated rail sections to run all my signals, made custom lengths, and used Gargraves for bridges and hidden sidings. I sift my own ballast from a crushed stone pile I keep for the driveway to enhance the track. Most of my learning experience came from right here on the forum. I just wanted to point out that it's possible to have good results with Fastrack. I'll start another thread to answer some of your questions so as not to hijack this one.

@Hot Water posted:

Then again, a LOT of the sound may be lost on any sort of video presentation.

That's why I tried to clarify by having the Db meter show the actual sound level in the video. As I stated above:

I realize it is tough to demonstrate sound level on a video, so I used a decibel app on my phone for qualification.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Do you think I have to tear down my layout and get rid of the Baltic Birch?

Not at all, nor will I tear down mine made of the same.

In my experience, slower speeds really help in reducing three rail noise.   When I    run my three rail trains at the speeds my 2 rail trains operate all is well.  When the three rail trains would be test run at typical toy train speeds the sound is ugly loud.

John's train sounds are a product partially due to the pleasant train speed.  One nice fine layout!

@John H posted:

I used a decibel app

Hey John... which app did you use?   I'd like to see how quiet (or not) my layout is emulating as closely as I can your test setup.

@Tom Tee posted:

In my experience, slower speeds really help in reducing three rail noise.   When I    run my three rail trains at the speeds my 2 rail trains operate all is well.  When the three rail trains would be test run at typical toy train speeds the sound is ugly loud.

John's train sounds are a product partially due to the pleasant train speed.  One nice fine layout!

Absolutely...and they look so much better at those speeds, don't they? 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Dennis-LaRock It is called dB Meter in the App Store. I use an iPhone. It came up third when I searched for decibel meter.

@John H posted:

Really nice layout John.

John

@John H posted:

@Dennis-LaRock It is called dB Meter in the App Store. I use an iPhone. It came up third when I searched for decibel meter.

Thanks John... downloaded & installed.

@ThatGuy posted:

Cutting fastrack is not hard at all, cut it on an angle Bend tabs if they are at the cut or bend them to remove pins. Take pins and heat (just enough to melt plastic) set them in the cut end. If the new end of track has no tabs to hold them then a dab of crazy glue and done. I can now knock off a custom size in about 5 minutes.

He guy, can you post a pic or two?  I need to learn from you, my results are not great, so I need a better technique.  Thanks!  -Ken

@Ken-Oscale posted:

He guy, can you post a pic or two?  I need to learn from you, my results are not great, so I need a better technique.  Thanks!  -Ken

While I have no extra track at moment I will give you a blow by blow directions.

1. Measure track, then mark with a marker the end you want to cut. Mark the top of the tracks mirroring the fast track angle. Remember the road bed is cut square. (I use a Dremel to cut the three rails. Each rail must be square to the roadbed. From the end you discard remove the pins. Back to the piece we want, if the rails have the bent tabs in place you will need to bend them to lift each rail (note when lifting only enough that the pins will go in, also remember which rail gets the pin.) the pin with the steel tit that locks into the road bed will need to have a hole to set in. I originally I used to heat the pin. I now drill the hole from the bottom of the road bed. Once the pins can be set, some crazy glue will hold the rails down. If you would like to speak about this further please shoot me an email on the forum

Thanks ThatGuy, that gives me something to think about, and then try.  Your technique is different from what others have tried (cutting out the middle section)!

A lot of my FasTrack has a plastic runner beneath the rails, so may need to be cut down to accept the pins at the end.

Seems like you would need to deal with the projection and socket that locks track sections together.  How do you deal with that?

@Ken-Oscale posted:

Thanks ThatGuy, that gives me something to think about, and then try.  Your technique is different from what others have tried (cutting out the middle section)!

A lot of my FasTrack has a plastic runner beneath the rails, so may need to be cut down to accept the pins at the end.

Seems like you would need to deal with the projection and socket that locks track sections together.  How do you deal with that?

The locking part is discarded. I also cut away the plastic insert is cut away with the same dremel. I a, going to pull out a section cut it and send photos this week will keep you updated.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, that all looks like Gargraves for sure, nice bunch of track.  If it has stiffeners under the ties, it's not flex track.  If there are no little stiffeners running the length of the track, it is probably flex track.

Here's non-flex straight track, note the runners near the end of the ties.

I, too, like GG track with Ross switches for the same reasons stated from everyone here.  I have a narrow yard which is possible using the Ross 4 way, due to the size constraints of my narrow but longish layout room.  What hasn't been mentioned is Gargraves also makes standard curves that I think are very nice (I use 0-42).  They have the runners like this straight piece shows to keep the radius permanent.  What's nice about GG curves is you can mix them with flex track and save yourself time from bending and cutting every single curve for those areas that you just want standard curves.

I will also be mixing Gargraves with some of my old but clean stock Lionel 0-27 series straights and 0-27 series 0-42 curves on my 2nd and/or 3rd levels because they mate perfectly together with both GG and Ross using mating pins from GG.  I did this on my last layout after speaking to Steve at Ross and was very pleased with the result.

Mike