Generations of Legacy Electronics in Locomotives

Up to 2010, Legacy was the modular boards with the R4LC and DCDS-J motor driver boards.  As you correctly observe, Lionel has declared those obsolete and yanked them all from the parts site.  I believe the RCMD is just the later numbering of the RCMC.  I've compared the two boards and see no difference, and they seem to have all the same pinouts and functionality.  Around 2020, the LCP2 and LCP3 boards appeared, they're a new design.  One major difference is for diesel variants, they included the sound capability on the main board and dispensed with the RS-Lite board.  For steam, they still have an RS-Lite board as it's in the tender.  The LCP2/3 boards have a lot of design similarities with the RCMC boards, but there are different connectors and pinouts.

I'm sure other gurus could chime in with far more detail than I could provide, but here's the basic timeframe from my research...if you have questions about a particular model, you can look up its part number on the Lionel parts website and see what it has.

2006 volume 2 catalog (beginning of Legacy) to 2010: modular setup similar to TMCC although the boards are totally different and not interchangeable.

2010-2011: Transition from modular boards to single RCMC and Railsounds Lite board for sounds.

2011-2019 volume 2 catalog: RCMC/RS lite setup

2020 volume 1 to present: LCP2/LCP3 setup.  You can tell these from the 5 horns and 5 bells.  My understanding is the 2 is used in steam engines with a separate RS Lite sound board in the tender, the 3 is used in diesels and the sound is incorporated.  Could be totally wrong on this.

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For my collecting purposes, I avoid modular Legacy like the plague (which is very sad because there were some great models produced then), as none of the boards are available and most are engine-specific so you are SOL if one goes out.  Also from what I can tell they seem to have a much higher failure rate than TMCC and later models.

I have many engines with RCMC setups.  Since they were used up until 2020, I'm assuming (hoping, dear God, hoping) that they remain available for some time yet.  Even if one RCMC was to go out and they were no longer available, I would assume it wouldn't be *too* difficult to swap in a LCP2/3 from a similar engine model, but I could be wrong.

I also don't shy away from older TMCC engines since most of their electronics were modular and could be swapped from engine-to-engine, there are ways to get parts on the aftermarket without too much difficulty, they seem to be pretty bullet-proof reliable, and there is also the almost plug-and-play option of the Electric Railroad Co.

Fascinating information, gentlemen…….thank you.

Peter

Add to the list RCDR and BEMC. These use Legacy code but use back EMF in the motor drive. Engines have different speed curves than the rest so can only be MU’d with themselves. Only a few engines came with these but they also makes upgrades easier.

Pete

@Catonsville Central Railway posted:

I avoid modular Legacy like the plague (which is very sad because there were some great models produced then), as none of the boards are available and most are engine-specific so you are SOL if one goes out.  Also from what I can tell they seem to have a much higher failure rate than TMCC and later models.

Woody,

Do you have actual data about 'much higher' failure rates to back this up, or is it just from gut feel?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Woody,

Do you have actual data about 'much higher' failure rates to back this up, or is it just from gut feel?

Mike

I've had at least 4-5 fail personally, usually the motor driver board and once the railsounds power board, and watching the market for the past ten years I see one pop up for sale with a failed motor driver board regularly enough to put a sour taste in my mouth.  Fwiw, I've only once had an RCMC fail (short in the smoke unit burnt it out) and I've never had a TMCC engine fail.

So, scientific "data"?  No, but who has that?  What we do know if there are documented failures out there and if they do fail, the owner is all but stuck with a paperweight.

Gentlemen, thank you for the explanations. It does clear things up for me quite a bit.

I'm not really concerned about the TMCC locos. I seem to have accumulated a number of spare boards of different types and I can support my TMCC locos for years to come. Also as long as ERR is around that is another replacement option. I do have an early AC6000 powered and super bass set with the modular Legacy boards so I need to make sure I don't run them too hard. All the rest of my Legacy engines are equipped with different RCMC versions. Appears I don't have any with LCP's.

Having never ordered any Legacy replacement boards, doesn't Lionel have to program them for your specific loco? You can't just order say a RCMC Rev B and expect it to work?

@Norton posted:

Add to the list RCDR and BEMC. These use Legacy code but use back EMF in the motor drive. Engines have different speed curves than the rest so can only be MU’d with themselves. Only a few engines came with these but they also makes upgrades easier.

Pete

What engines were the RCDR and BEMC used in? You say they make upgrades easier. So does that mean they are sort of like an ERR Cruise Commander or Cruise M?

Newer Lionchief 2.0 Plus engines have stickers on the frames saying they are Legacy equipped. What boards do these use?

Ken

@kanawha posted:

Gentlemen, thank you for the explanations. It does clear things up for me quite a bit.

I'm not really concerned about the TMCC locos. I seem to have accumulated a number of spare boards of different types and I can support my TMCC locos for years to come. Also as long as ERR is around that is another replacement option. I do have an early AC6000 powered and super bass set with the modular Legacy boards so I need to make sure I don't run them too hard. All the rest of my Legacy engines are equipped with different RCMC versions. Appears I don't have any with LCP's.

Having never ordered any Legacy replacement boards, doesn't Lionel have to program them for your specific loco? You can't just order say a RCMC Rev B and expect it to work?

What engines were the RCDR and BEMC used in? You say they make upgrades easier. So does that mean they are sort of like an ERR Cruise Commander or Cruise M?

Newer Lionchief 2.0 Plus engines have stickers on the frames saying they are Legacy equipped. What boards do these use?

Ken

The one that comes to mind was a 0-8-0 or 0-6-0, small engine for sure. Lots of complaints here on how they couldn’t be coupled with other Legacy engines.

They don’t use a speed sensor so its is like a ERR Cruise Commander on two separate boards. Also the RCDR can be used to trigger some Legacy functions like the swinging bell board in an TMCC engine.

Pete

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Up to 2010, Legacy was the modular boards with the R4LC and DCDS-J motor driver boards.  As you correctly observe, Lionel has declared those obsolete and yanked them all from the parts site.  I believe the RCMD is just the later numbering of the RCMC.  I've compared the two boards and see no difference, and they seem to have all the same pinouts and functionality.  Around 2020, the LCP2 and LCP3 boards appeared, they're a new design.  One major difference is for diesel variants, they included the sound capability on the main board and dispensed with the RS-Lite board.  For steam, they still have an RS-Lite board as it's in the tender.  The LCP2/3 boards have a lot of design similarities with the RCMC boards, but there are different connectors and pinouts.

I have had about a 50% sound failure rate on the LCP boards on diesels, most were still under warranty so lionel swapped the boards out. Also, my one of my legacy Acela power cars has a fried board. No good. Never had any major problems with anything made 2012-2020 (other than cosmetic).

@biscuitag97 posted:

I have had about a 50% sound failure rate on the LCP boards on diesels, most were still under warranty so lionel swapped the boards out. Also, my one of my legacy Acela power cars has a fried board. No good. Never had any major problems with anything made 2012-2020 (other than cosmetic).

Wow, that's disturbing.  I feel like there should be a thread devoted to LCP board failures.  I'm seeing some popping up for sale here and there with fried boards and for engines at most 3-4 years old that's quite concerning.

They are all are subject failing. I have had two RCMCs fail in a Vision 700E Hudson. I have bought many RCMCs for friends with failed boards. One reason I prefer older TMCC stuff. Not bulletproof but the failure rate is far lower.

Pete

Pre war and post war....100+ years old...still running,repair parts still available!!

@biscuitag97 posted:

I have had about a 50% sound failure rate on the LCP boards on diesels, most were still under warranty so lionel swapped the boards out. Also, my one of my legacy Acela power cars has a fried board. No good. Never had any major problems with anything made 2012-2020 (other than cosmetic).

I have a few locomotives with LCP boards, no failures so far.

I would imagine with failure of boards and out of luck with finding some replacement boards that it's a good reason to use the best available super fast acting circuit breakers for your power supply to track and TVS across any power supplies, across track feeders at the track, and especially in your locomotives to prevent power surges to your electronic boards and motors.

Can't you just yank the bad boards out put in a rectifier and a e-unit as they are dc engines? That way the engine still runs in convential mode which I still like. The early williams engines were dc can motors with a rectifier and a e-unit and they were bullet proof.

@Ccriss posted:

Can't you just yank the bad boards out put in a rectifier and a e-unit as they are dc engines? That way the engine still runs in convential mode which I still like. The early williams engines were dc can motors with a rectifier and a e-unit and they were bullet proof.

That's an affordable option but you sure do lose a lot of features and functionality that goes with them boards.

@Catonsville Central Railway posted:

I have many engines with RCMC setups.  Since they were used up until 2020, I'm assuming (hoping, dear God, hoping) that they remain available for some time yet.  Even if one RCMC was to go out and they were no longer available, I would assume it wouldn't be *too* difficult to swap in a LCP2/3 from a similar engine model, but I could be wrong.

I have upgraded a number of diesels and a few steam to Legacy using the RCMC.  As you correctly observe, you can usually find a close cousin of the ideal board it that is not available.  The exception I would guess is the Vision Line stuff that has very specific features in the RCMC programming.

Gunrunerjohn would it be very hard to put a board to get command control in a post war lionel f3 engine. I have ordered a lionel f3 B&O from Len at L&L restorations. I would like to put the board in the B unit and tether it to the a unit. The reason being I would like to leave the a unit intact and just unhook the the from the motors. Len does awesome job on those old engines and don't want to disturb anymore than necessary. I have been looking at the ERR railroad's board. It looks pretty straight foward to do. I love post war but I also love the technology.  It keeps the hobby much more interesting. Thank you in advance for any knowledge you are willing to share.

   V/r. Charles Criss

Great information in this topic, thanks all.

Does anyone have an internal picture of an LCP2 or LCP3 setup by chance? Just want to see what they look like. Morbid curiosity I guess.

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

Great information in this topic, thanks all.

Does anyone have an internal picture of an LCP2 or LCP3 setup by chance? Just want to see what they look like. Morbid curiosity I guess.

Rod

Pete

Thanks Pete!

Rod

@Ccriss posted:

Gunrunerjohn would it be very hard to put a board to get command control in a post war lionel f3 engine. I have ordered a lionel f3 B&O from Len at L&L restorations. I would like to put the board in the B unit and tether it to the a unit. The reason being I would like to leave the a unit intact and just unhook the the from the motors. Len does awesome job on those old engines and don't want to disturb anymore than necessary. I have been looking at the ERR railroad's board. It looks pretty straight foward to do. I love post war but I also love the technology.  It keeps the hobby much more interesting. Thank you in advance for any knowledge you are willing to share.

   V/r. Charles Criss

It wouldn't be a big deal to put the ERR AC commander and if you want sound, the ERR Railsounds Commander into the B-Unit, a 10-pin MTH tether would be enough to hook up the A-Unit to the B-Unit.

I have been fortunate enough to be able to collect many many rare oh scale models. My hope is that someday in the future there will be an electronics system. That is available to make my models live again. Maybe I’m being overly optimistic. Either way I have almost, all the locomotives that I really want. I truly hope that there will be an electronics operating system available when and if I ever I get the point of having a layout. No matter what I will be happy since all that matters to me is that I have the beauty of the artwork of these locomotives and rail cars to keep me engaged and happy.

@Winton248 posted:

I have been fortunate enough to be able to collect many many rare oh scale models. My hope is that someday in the future there will be an electronics system. That is available to make my models live again. Maybe I’m being overly optimistic. Either way I have almost, all the locomotives that I really want. I truly hope that there will be an electronics operating system available when and if I ever I get the point of having a layout. No matter what I will be happy since all that matters to me is that I have the beauty of the artwork of these locomotives and rail cars to keep me engaged and happy.

DCC has been around for nearly 50 years. I suspect it will be around for another 50. There are forms of it today that will work on just about any toy train, 2 or 3 rail, large or small.

Pete

Thank you gunruner for for advice.