Getting A Static Locomotive Operational Again...

Not an expert, but found an interesting article. The 9th paragraph - the inside of the boiler must be bare

How much would the overall test cost? Can you compare previous test costs from other locomotives? 

The UT tests I have seen on them are from the outside, so removal of flues unlikely necessary.  The boiler walls are not extremely thick either, so UT testing them is a very simple process and not very costly.  Based on prices I pay to have heavy steel tubes UT tested, I would guess that it can be done for only a few hundred dollars, give or take.  Using current phased array technology, UT can detect any and every flaw imaginable, including fracturing that previously didn't appear utilizing other methods.

Of course to UT from the inside would require removal of all flues so someone could fit.  However, as long as the outside can be made completely accessible, I see no point.

TexasSP posted:

The UT tests I have seen on them are from the outside, so removal of flues unlikely necessary.  

I don't know what industry you are referring to, but the FRA does indeed REQUIRE that all internal surfaces of the boiler MUST also be visually inspected as part of the UT testing. Thus, virtually ALL the tubes/flues MUST be removed as part of the FRA mandated inspection and re-calculation of the Federal Form 4. Also overlooked is, all the jacketing & insulation must be removed in order to access the external surfaces of the locomotive boiler.

The boiler walls are not extremely thick either, so UT testing them is a very simple process and not very costly.

Sort of true, but hiring a qualified person experienced in the UT testing, not to mention completing all the math calculations for the FRA Form 4, will probably not be cheap.

 Based on prices I pay to have heavy steel tubes UT tested, I would guess that it can be done for only a few hundred dollars, give or take.  Using current phased array technology, UT can detect any and every flaw imaginable, including fracturing that previously didn't appear utilizing other methods.

Of course to UT from the inside would require removal of all flues so someone could fit.  However, as long as the outside can be made completely accessible, I see no point.

The FRA rules say otherwise.

Thanks HW, I have no clue what the FRA requires so happy to learn.  I just know a fair amount about UT testing for material subject to high pressure internal and external.  As for costs, I am simply referring to the technician running the probe.  Again, as for all the other FRA requirements, I am certainly uneducated in that realm and defer to others such as yourself.  My statements were of UT in general.

TexasSP posted:

Thanks HW, I have no clue what the FRA requires so happy to learn.  I just know a fair amount about UT testing for material subject to high pressure internal and external.  As for costs, I am simply referring to the technician running the probe.  Again, as for all the other FRA requirements, I am certainly uneducated in that realm and defer to others such as yourself.  My statements were of UT in general.

OK, no problem. Glad to help.

One other point; ALL the tubes and flues should be removed and replaced, as well as all the superheater units, on ANY steam locomotive that has been sitting "on display", no matter whether indoors or out in the weather.

Hot Water posted:

TexasSP posted:

Thanks HW, I have no clue what the FRA requires so happy to learn.  I just know a fair amount about UT testing for material subject to high pressure internal and external.  As for costs, I am simply referring to the technician running the probe.  Again, as for all the other FRA requirements, I am certainly uneducated in that realm and defer to others such as yourself.  My statements were of UT in general.

OK, no problem. Glad to help.

One other point; ALL the tubes and flues should be removed and replaced, as well as all the superheater units, on ANY steam locomotive that has been sitting "on display", no matter whether indoors or out in the weather.

It really is a gamble:

Spend the money, move 6218 to a shop facility, remove the flues not knowing if your money was well spent. Is there a way to find out if 6218 is able to run again without moving it?

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

TexasSP posted:

Thanks HW, I have no clue what the FRA requires so happy to learn.  I just know a fair amount about UT testing for material subject to high pressure internal and external.  As for costs, I am simply referring to the technician running the probe.  Again, as for all the other FRA requirements, I am certainly uneducated in that realm and defer to others such as yourself.  My statements were of UT in general.

OK, no problem. Glad to help.

One other point; ALL the tubes and flues should be removed and replaced, as well as all the superheater units, on ANY steam locomotive that has been sitting "on display", no matter whether indoors or out in the weather.

It really is a gamble:

Especially if you have no place to operate the locomotive!

Spend the money, move 6218 to a shop facility, remove the flues not knowing if your money was well spent.

645 posted:

I'm also curious how you are going to be able to be involved "hands on" with a 6218 restoration team since it is about 300 miles from Toledo, Ohio as I think you live west of Toledo in NW Ohio or NE Indiana based on your NKP 765 posts you've made elsewhere on this site. You may be spreading yourself too thin if you intend to work on both 765 and 6218 as a volunteer on a regular basis. I'm not trying to discourage you but these are facts you need to consider - to drive 300+ miles will take at least 5 hours one way. If you have to attend school and/or work 5 days a week like most of us that won't leave much time to actually work on 6218 in between driving out and back to Fort Erie.

I live in Warren, Indiana, south of Fort Wayne first of all. Second, I'm 15 and am sitting at school as I'm typing. Finally, my overall plan is to move 6218 to the US and begin the overhaul. I was thinking Jackson, Michigan for a few reasons:

There are some industrial buildings that to my belief see little use, and is connected to NS by rail. Also, the Jackson & Lansing shortline may be willing to have 6218 pull a revenue freight for a test run.

Railfan Brody posted:

645 posted:

I'm also curious how you are going to be able to be involved "hands on" with a 6218 restoration team since it is about 300 miles from Toledo, Ohio as I think you live west of Toledo in NW Ohio or NE Indiana based on your NKP 765 posts you've made elsewhere on this site. You may be spreading yourself too thin if you intend to work on both 765 and 6218 as a volunteer on a regular basis. I'm not trying to discourage you but these are facts you need to consider - to drive 300+ miles will take at least 5 hours one way. If you have to attend school and/or work 5 days a week like most of us that won't leave much time to actually work on 6218 in between driving out and back to Fort Erie.

I live in Warren, Indiana, south of Fort Wayne first of all. Second, I'm 15 and am sitting at school as I'm typing. Finally, my overall plan is to move 6218 to the US and begin the overhaul.

 How do you propose to fund this pipe dream?

I was thinking Jackson, Michigan for a few reasons:

There are some industrial buildings that to my belief see little use, and is connected to NS by rail.

Since you apparently propose to lease one of these buildings, do you know if they are vacant? Do they had sturdy enough concrete floors with a track inside? Is a good sized overhead crane (say 5 or 10 ton) available?

Also, the Jackson & Lansing shortline may be willing to have 6218 pull a revenue freight for a test run.

"May" be willing?!?!  Is that short line even capable of handling a 4-8-4?

You probably need to be paying more attention to your school work.

Brody,  You are lucky to be within an hour's drive of the FWRHS and the 765.   Why don't you get yourself plugged in there regularly, get to know folks, learn how things work, enjoy and learn.  After you are out of school, you can then go tackle whatever your heart desires. 

I rode the 6218 in 1969 at 80 mph.  A wonderful locomotive but it doesn't have a single axle with roller bearings.

Hot Water... I admire this young man's energy and willingness to ask, "why not"! Many great accomplishments start as "impossible dreams." Judging from his demonstrated ambition, he probably does very well in school.  He deserves encouragement rather than "cold water" from "Hot Water".

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

645 posted:

I'm also curious how you are going to be able to be involved "hands on" with a 6218 restoration team since it is about 300 miles from Toledo, Ohio as I think you live west of Toledo in NW Ohio or NE Indiana based on your NKP 765 posts you've made elsewhere on this site. You may be spreading yourself too thin if you intend to work on both 765 and 6218 as a volunteer on a regular basis. I'm not trying to discourage you but these are facts you need to consider - to drive 300+ miles will take at least 5 hours one way. If you have to attend school and/or work 5 days a week like most of us that won't leave much time to actually work on 6218 in between driving out and back to Fort Erie.

I live in Warren, Indiana, south of Fort Wayne first of all. Second, I'm 15 and am sitting at school as I'm typing. Finally, my overall plan is to move 6218 to the US and begin the overhaul.

 How do you propose to fund this pipe dream?

Start small. Spread the word, maybe start a GoFundMe. Other organizations may do an excursion where some of the proceeds go to 6218. Sponsor a private car excursion. If it ends up in the shops, and the only thing keeping it from running is a lack of funds, a loan could be taken out.

I was thinking Jackson, Michigan for a few reasons:

There are some industrial buildings that to my belief see little use, and is connected to NS by rail.

Since you apparently propose to lease one of these buildings, do you know if they are vacant? Do they had sturdy enough concrete floors with a track inside? Is a good sized overhead crane (say 5 or 10 ton) available?

Lease, possibly purchase. I need to do some research to see if there is any activity there. I'll email Drayton Blackgrove, the owner of Delay In Block Productions, who is a resident of Jackson. He has a good relationship with NS and has been allowed accompanied access to the yard at Jackson, and he might know if the buildings are still in use. I did find some information on the buildings' history, and discovered that they were originally diesel shops. So concrete floor, yes. Overhead crane, wouldn't doubt it.

Also, the Jackson & Lansing shortline may be willing to have 6218 pull a revenue freight for a test run.

"May" be willing?!?!  Is that short line even capable of handling a 4-8-4?

Good question! Wish I could tell you.

You probably need to be paying more attention to your school work.

Testing day today. Basically downtime in most of my classes.

john in western pa posted:

Hot Water... I admire this young man's energy and willingness to ask, "why not"! Many great accomplishments start as "impossible dreams." Judging from his demonstrated ambition, he probably does very well in school.  He deserves encouragement rather than "cold water" from "Hot Water".

Well sorry John, but his continuing posts of this nature are beginning to get a bit tiring. Maybe I just won't respond with "reality" to his future posts, unless he asks technical questions. 

One last point; since the locomotive he is dreaming about is a completely NON-ROLLER BEARING locomotive, he would be starting with three strikes against it anyway.

NKP779 posted:

Brody,  You are lucky to be within an hour's drive of the FWRHS and the 765.   Why don't you get yourself plugged in there regularly, get to know folks, learn how things work, enjoy and learn.  After you are out of school, you can then go tackle whatever your heart desires. 

I rode the 6218 in 1969 at 80 mph.  A wonderful locomotive but it doesn't have a single axle with roller bearings.

Way ahead of you! I might even be in New Haven tomorrow.

Steve Lee was right when he stated a steam locomotive burns 

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Finally, my overall plan is to move 6218 to the US and begin the overhaul. I was thinking Jackson, Michigan for a few reasons:  Also, the Jackson & Lansing shortline may be willing to have 6218 pull a revenue freight for a test run.

Are you aware the Jackson & Lansing RR (AAR reporting marks are an appropriate 'JAIL' which you'll understand in a moment) plus affiliated Adrian & Blissfield RR are unfriendly to railfans? The Adrian & Blissfield operates a tourist / dinner train for the public but their personnel get upset if people take pictures of the equipment. I've been there on four different occasions (and one was a special train chartered by railfans but they still got upset over us taking photos!) but they were consistent with not welcoming railfans on the property which included their parking lot provided for the public. I seriously doubt the JAIL is going to welcome your concept of wanting to operate 6218 on their line. At the least they'll probably want the 6218 group to provide insurance which is another obstacle to operating on someone else's tracks - especially a passenger train. I understand you were talking about a test run with freight but the next step would be a passenger excursion, right?

The other railroad in Jackson is Amtrak's line. If Amtrak will even consider the idea then you'll need 6218 equipped with PTC and the special cab signal system Amtrak uses on the Michigan Line. There is a small group of Amtrak P42 diesels equipped with the necessary hardware for operation on this line. That's the reason Amtrak's heritage engines cannot lead a train on the Michigan Line from Porter, IN to Detroit, MI.

I thought that Norfolk Southern owned the line through Jackson. And couldn't 6218 be towed by NS diesels to avoid PTC? 

Hot Water posted:

john in western pa posted:

Hot Water... I admire this young man's energy and willingness to ask, "why not"! Many great accomplishments start as "impossible dreams." Judging from his demonstrated ambition, he probably does very well in school.  He deserves encouragement rather than "cold water" from "Hot Water".

Well sorry John, but his continuing posts of this nature are beginning to get a bit tiring. Maybe I just won't respond with "reality" to his future posts, unless he asks technical questions. 

One last point; since the locomotive he is dreaming about is a completely NON-ROLLER BEARING locomotive, he would be starting with three strikes against it anyway.

He's just expressing his dreams or ideas.  That's what FORUMS are partially for.  If you don't like his thread...there's a simple solution...don't read it.

I just want to express that I am serious about this undertaking. For a while now, I've been wondering what my purpose in life is, and I've concluded that I don't want to leave this world having accomplished nothing significant. So 6218; maybe it will run again, maybe it won't, but this locomotive, that was once a star, has fallen into the shadows of today's steam stars. It needs something to pull it back into the light, and I will gladly accept that challenge, but I WILL need help, and all the help I can get.

I'm starting an organization to eventually gain control of the locomotive in the years to come. Link will be posted soon.

Money, money money, got to have it. Brody, if Indiana has a "Mega Millions" lottery maybe you consider buying some tickets....... Winning would make your dreams come true. 

I supposed the real question is:  Are the title holders of 6218 willing to sell, lease or otherwise see the thing depart?

Rusty

boin106 posted:

Hot Water posted:

john in western pa posted:

Hot Water... I admire this young man's energy and willingness to ask, "why not"! Many great accomplishments start as "impossible dreams." Judging from his demonstrated ambition, he probably does very well in school.  He deserves encouragement rather than "cold water" from "Hot Water".

Well sorry John, but his continuing posts of this nature are beginning to get a bit tiring. Maybe I just won't respond with "reality" to his future posts, unless he asks technical questions. 

One last point; since the locomotive he is dreaming about is a completely NON-ROLLER BEARING locomotive, he would be starting with three strikes against it anyway.

He's just expressing his dreams or ideas.  That's what FORUMS are partially for.  If you don't like his thread...there's a simple solution...don't read it.

Absolutely agreed. Brody most big things have started with big dreams,followed by dogged effort and determination.

HW, the exchange of ideas and knowledge are what these forums are all about. Sometimes if you don't have anything nice to say, you just don't need to say anything at all.

Brody, the official rules for steam locomotive inspection and maintenance can be found by searching CFr 49, part 230.  Before the last update I had the old version memorized.  I  used to inspect, maintain fire and operate a small steam locomotive for a now defunct tourist line.

 I never had the privilege of working on the larger equipment.  I am however a Mechanical Engineer and I work at a steam electric power station for a living. I am pretty familiar with the inspection techniques required if you want to chat further.  Good luck to you in your studies.

Also, if there is a specific technical question I am friends with one of the engineers who help write the latest version of the code.  

Bare in mind one thing everyone above is 100% correct about is money.  In order even to do the external inspection you need all the jacketing and insulation removed.  Before that is done you need to ensure there is no asbestos.  The boiler would need charted before inspection.  It inspection itself is relatively easy to do. Getting that much done in a timely manner would likely require hiring an inspection technician for maybe 2 days.  Estimate $1500 to 2500/day.  Doing it yourself is an option but the fra may require you show credentials as a certified inspection tech.

Last I checked there was already a steamer needing some help in Jackson

Does anyone have any specifications on 6218? Such as built date, tractive effort, firebox and boiler size, etc. I can't find ANYTHING online, and apparently nobody takes pictures of the builder plate. 

Hot Water posted:

Well sorry John, but his continuing posts of this nature are beginning to get a bit tiring. Maybe I just won't respond with "reality" to his future posts, unless he asks technical questions. 

One last point; since the locomotive he is dreaming about is a completely NON-ROLLER BEARING locomotive, he would be starting with three strikes against it anyway.

What's the big deal with friction bearings anyway? They obviously aren't stopping Andy Muller at the RBMN, and even so, can't they be converted to roller bearing?

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Well sorry John, but his continuing posts of this nature are beginning to get a bit tiring. Maybe I just won't respond with "reality" to his future posts, unless he asks technical questions. 

One last point; since the locomotive he is dreaming about is a completely NON-ROLLER BEARING locomotive, he would be starting with three strikes against it anyway.

What's the big deal with friction bearings anyway?

There isn't a class 1 railroad in the U.S. that wants ANYTHING to do with them, ESPECIALLY on a steam locomotive.

They obviously aren't stopping Andy Muller at the RBMN,

Yes but, Andy owns the railroad too.

and even so, can't they be converted to roller bearing?

No.

645 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

I supposed the real question is:  Are the title holders of 6218 willing to sell, lease or otherwise see the thing depart?

Rusty

I'm wondering the same thing myself. Me thinks Brody is putting the cart before the horse here making all these plans to acquire, move and restore 6218. If it were me I'd check with the 6218 folks  first  and make contact with who legally owns it to see where the starting point is. If Brody can't get title to 6218 the rest of the plan is pointless...

Also wondering how Brody is making out on his plan to secure shop space in Jackson.

Last but not least, where's all the money to fund this (acquire/move 6218 and related shop area) coming from? Ideas are fine but this is fast approaching the point where the old axiom "show me the money" comes into play to continue.

If Brody really wants to see a "new" steam locomotive returned to service a more practical approach would be to work with FWRHS (as he is already a member of that organization) on investigating the possibility of returning their newly acquired NKP #624 to active service. Would be smoother sailing to accomplish something as part of an established organization.

Doesn't have to be in Jackson, could be anywhere.

About the museum in Fort Erie, I don't want to just show up and say, "6218, how much do you want for it?" My plan is to approach the museum and ask if they would be okay with starting a fund for a shelter or something. Seriously, you don't go knock on someone's door and say, "I really like your house! Would you be willing to sell?"

Railfan Brody posted:

645 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

I supposed the real question is:  Are the title holders of 6218 willing to sell, lease or otherwise see the thing depart?

Rusty

I'm wondering the same thing myself. Me thinks Brody is putting the cart before the horse here making all these plans to acquire, move and restore 6218. If it were me I'd check with the 6218 folks  first  and make contact with who legally owns it to see where the starting point is. If Brody can't get title to 6218 the rest of the plan is pointless...

Also wondering how Brody is making out on his plan to secure shop space in Jackson.

Last but not least, where's all the money to fund this (acquire/move 6218 and related shop area) coming from? Ideas are fine but this is fast approaching the point where the old axiom "show me the money" comes into play to continue.

If Brody really wants to see a "new" steam locomotive returned to service a more practical approach would be to work with FWRHS (as he is already a member of that organization) on investigating the possibility of returning their newly acquired NKP #624 to active service. Would be smoother sailing to accomplish something as part of an established organization.

 Seriously, you don't go knock on someone's door and say, "I really like your house! Would you be willing to sell?"

You don't? That worked for me/my family rather well. August 1 will mark 13 years in our house!

I've hit a bit of a snag. The museum doesn't have a website. Does anyone have any means of contact?

http://www.forterie.ca/pages/FortErieRailwayMuseum

Therese is a contact phone number.. Hopefully it's a start.   

Can someone explain how roller bearing vs friction bearings work?

Thanks for the phone number Gregg!

Railfan Brody posted:

Can someone explain how roller bearing vs friction bearings work?

Thanks for the phone number Gregg!

This  is something you really should do internet research on, and then ask a specific question. There is plenty of info available.

A friction bearing involves a bored hole with a babbitt lining that is in direct contact with the shaft. Simple example, the wheels on your Red Ryder wagon when you were a kid.

The roller bearing uses ball or rollers enclosed in inner and outer races. Simple example the front wheel bearings on your RWD automobile. This design provides reduced friction.

Friction bearing failure, you've got a mess on your hands. Roller bearings, pull it off and replace it.

Gilly@N&W posted:

A friction bearing involves a bored hole with a babbitt lining that is in direct contact with the shaft. Simple example, the wheels on your Red Ryder wagon when you were a kid.

In steam locomotive applications, ONLY the Southern Pacific used babbitted crown bearings, with high pressure feed oil lubrication. ALL other railroads used brass crown bearings with grease cake lubrication on the bottom of the axle journal.

The roller bearing uses ball or rollers enclosed in inner and outer races. Simple example the front wheel bearings on your RWD automobile. This design provides reduced friction.

Friction bearing failure, you've got a mess on your hands.

Not necessarily, because with a plain bearing application on steam locomotive axles, the driving box can be easily raised up and blocked off the axle journal, and continue on.

Roller bearings, pull it off and replace it.

Certainly NOT in steam locomotive applications! First, with a roller bearing failure on the road, you are COMPLETELY DEAD where you stop, period. Since the roller bearings are pressed onto the drive axles, i.e. INSIDE the wheels, and are sealed inside large cannon housings, the entire wheel & axle assembly must be removed from the steam locomotive. The cannon housing must be then opened, the wheels pressed off, and the then the roller bearings pressed off. Thus, it is a MAJOR shop operation.

I am surprised there's no way to modify the pistons to roller bearing. It seems like a simple conversion, so what's the obstacle? NKP 765's tender was modified to roller bearings.

Railfan Brody posted:

I am surprised there's no way to modify the pistons to roller bearing.

WHAT??????

It seems like a simple conversion, so what's the obstacle?

Sure.

NKP 765's tender was modified to roller bearings.

Again, you need to do research and LEARN what you are trying to discuss! The tender truck wheels & axles are OUTBOARD BEARINGS.  Thus, it is fairly simple to up-grade tender trucks to roller bearings, just like freight car trucks were up-graded to roller bearings.

Gilly@N&W posted:

Roller bearings, pull it off and replace it.

I can't speak to RR applications, but, in automotive applications, failure of a roller bearing often means significant damage to the shaft upon with the inner race sits or to the cup in which the outer race sits.  Simple bearing replacement is not enough in those cases.

The real advantages of roller bearings are reduced friction and reduced frequency of preventative maintenance.

It's often difficult for many of us who have been around machinery to realize how few youth these days (as a percentage of the total) share those experiences in contrast to our own younger days.