Getting into 2 rail

Some answers can be found here: https://ogrforum.com/...16#77593417246136016

Regards

Fred

So you're going to the dark side.....LOL

Dear Bic,

First of all welcome to 2 rail O scale fraternity and THANK YOU for your service to our country !!!!

You are very fortunate to reside in Pennsylvania and you can attend the Strasburg O scale 2 Rail ONLY train shows to get your feet wet in this great scale .

Think of 2 Rail O scale as HO Scale on steroids .

There is also 2 rail clubs in Reading Pa.,Merchantville,NJ(Right across from Philly) and Youngstown ,Oh.

We generally have 90 plus tables with all the goodies you would need to fill your O scale list  at Strasburg and we meet 3 times a year.

Please look under OGR Calendar section for details.

There is also the O Scale Kings which our new president-Bruce Blackwood- is always in attendance and for $10.00  yearly dues a fine organization to join.

Feel free to call me or email me anytime 609-432-2871 or jdunn8888@comcast. net

John P.Dunn Sr. Scale2Rail Promotions / President-Cherry Valley Model Railroad Club

Strasburg Shows - 04/06 , 08/10 , 10/12/2019

With regards to the thread that was posted a year ago, specifically curve size, it depends on what type of equipment you are going to run. Large articulated steam locomotives require large radius curves, at least 72". Steam never interested me so my twin can motor diesels from Atlas and MTH negotiate my 49.5" and 54" curves easily as do my 89' flat cars. They would look better on wider curves but I can live with the overhang.

Most China drives will handle a 36" curve. Usually, the 4-axle locomotives are in the 36" curve realm while the larger 6-axle locomotives will require 42' to 45".

Hi Bic, there is another show in York at the Fair ground for G and O scale. East Coast Large Scale show March 22-23. This show offers battery radio control systems for any O scale loco. We will have  demos to show you. 

If you can get to any of these shows you can meet  local 2 rail O Scalers to help you start your layout.  See you at the show,  Don

Dan Padova posted:

So you're going to the dark side.....LOL

Perhaps more accurate to state he is stepping into the light.

Just a word on radious...I hear 72" so many times, and it could certainly be nice to have,  but operationally, I have found that you can run an awful lot on something less.  I had 48" for a couple decades and ran unaltered 80' cars, mikes amd pacifics,  I increased most of the curves to 54" and ran 2-10-2s, a huge Berk and all but one large  4-8-2.  I even had a friend bring over a small articulated, like  a 2-6-6-2,  and that tracked with out issue.  I now have 58" and that handles the big mountain too.  I would guess a big boy or challenger might need more but maybe others can comment on that.  But the difference between 58" radious and 72" radious is 2'4" less to make a 180 degree curve so it can be a make or break factor.  And as already stated, deisels do not need nearly as much space. 

I have never found a functional reason to use anything larger than a number 6 turnout, although larger ones look nice.  I read an account of someone who just switched to O scale and he was talking about the lack of 2 rail in hobby shops.  I guess it is all what you get use to but in 45 years, I have rarely bought any rolling stock and only one engine kit in a hobbyshop (1977?).  Most of the purchases are from shows (like Strasburg) or on line.  There is far more out there than I can ever recall and at generally lower prices. 

I am not an electrnics expert but switching from DC to DCC went really well.  There is so much room in O scale equipment realative to HO and N for decoders and speakers.  Even rigging up connectors and plugs is easier than with the small scales.   I am also taken back by some three railer concern over wiring reverse loops and wyes  because of two rails.  Yet there are thousands of HO and N scale guys doing it everyday.

There are so many accepted "facts" about O scale (and DCC) that are over stated. ..and most need to be qualified.    Hope I havent added to the list.

Hi Bic, 

Before you spend any money:

1. Go to a club or show that has 2-rail trains on display or preferably running.  

2. Talk to as many 2R people as you can.  

3. If your intent is to have a home layout w/curves, you’ll need a lot more space.  

4. Start looking at eBay to get a feel for the market.  I’m not involved with plastic but I can say that over the last twenty years the brass market has seen significant declines, now is a great time to be a buyer.  

5. Know that this hobby can quickly turn into an OCD.  

Have fun,

Chris

astarr posted:

Just a word on radious...I hear 72" so many times, and it could certainly be nice to have,  but operationally, I have found that you can run an awful lot on something less.  I had 48" for a couple decades and ran unaltered 80' cars, mikes amd pacifics,  I increased most of the curves to 54" and ran 2-10-2s, a huge Berk and all but one large  4-8-2.  I even had a friend bring over a small articulated, like  a 2-6-6-2,  and that tracked with out issue.  I now have 58" and that handles the big mountain too.  I would guess a big boy or challenger might need more but maybe others can comment on that.  But the difference between 58" radious and 72" radious is 2'4" less to make a 180 degree curve so it can be a make or break factor.  And as already stated, deisels do not need nearly as much space. 

I have never found a functional reason to use anything larger than a number 6 turnout, although larger ones look nice.  I read an account of someone who just switched to O scale and he was talking about the lack of 2 rail in hobby shops.  I guess it is all what you get use to but in 45 years, I have rarely bought any rolling stock and only one engine kit in a hobbyshop (1977?).  Most of the purchases are from shows (like Strasburg) or on line.  There is far more out there than I can ever recall and at generally lower prices. 

I am not an electrnics expert but switching from DC to DCC went really well.  There is so much room in O scale equipment realative to HO and N for decoders and speakers.  Even rigging up connectors and plugs is easier than with the small scales.   I am also taken back by some three railer concern over wiring reverse loops and wyes  because of two rails.  Yet there are thousands of HO and N scale guys doing it everyday.

There are so many accepted "facts" about O scale (and DCC) that are over stated. ..and most need to be qualified.    Hope I havent added to the list.

The late, great John Armstrong (Canandaigua Central) used a 58" min radius on his layout, and ran 2-10-2, 2-10-4, and 4-8=4 locomotives.

astarr posted:

I would guess a big boy or challenger might need more but maybe others can comment on that. 

At a former club our minimum radius on the mainline was 60" and we were able to run Big Boys and Cab Forwards successfully with a speed restriction.

When I dabbled in 2 rail O, I found that the older Atlas/Roco F9s and Weaver diesels would negotiate 24" radius Atlas curves, which is all I had. Sure, they didn't look "great" doing so, but no worse than how 3 rail trains look on 027...

I also found they run beautifully; always thought the Atlas F9 was a sturdy and affordable "platform" for modifications. I still have few, and here's one...

Mark in Oregon

Remember, the numbers being tossed about in this thread are RADIUS, not diameter.  If you ever intend to run 8-drivered steam, or 6-axle diesels with modern rolling stock, and model a mainline railroad with any significant tangent track, you're probably looking at 10' x 20' absolute minimum.  Thank goodness for basements, I guess!

Hi there,

I switched from 3 rail to 2 rail and it has been an entirely new level of satisfaction. I was told how difficult 2 rail was by some others, and maybe it was for them, but for my purposes I have not found anything difficult about it at all.

I'm building a layout in a 24'x26' basement with mainline 56" and 60" radius curves negotiated by N&W articulateds and Northerns.

A lot depends on what railroad and era you are modeling and what you are trying to achieve. I guess more information is needed about your modeling interests to discuss more.

Bic,

I am also new to this hobby and am focused on only 2 rail.  I went to my first train show last week and learned more in 7 hours talking to some 2 railers ,than days on the computer.  First off,  Atlas Track has no 2 rail switches anymore.  The reps at the show said they are coming on the next boat from China, its a very slow boat. E-Bay has a few Atlas turnouts, but that source can dry up too.  I called the Gargraves site and they are also very limited and suggested I search elsewhere.  Ross switches are only 3 rail.  I spoke with the "Man" himself at the show.  Cool guy, and great story.  That left me with Peco, which ships from the UK.  I have put together my first track order, code 124, (It's taken a year+),  but the choices are few and lefthand turnouts are backordered at least a month.  Also be prepared to use a lot of flex track.  Additionally,  I have come to grips with designing an around the basement layout over the last year.  Visiting a local o scale club cemented that decision after seeing how much room it actually takes.  I'll wrap around a 23'X16' basement and now see that it will still be tight.

I also just purchased an MTH steam Loco off E-bay that I watched for a couple months.  We will see how that turns out.  I was also directed to check out ETS.com trains from this forum to find locomotives.  The photos are great but deceiving wrt to detail.  Luckily I saw them at the train show and realized they are not as detailed or realistic as others I've seen.  This is a subjective comment but I would have been disappointed if I bought something just off the photos alone.  Another reason to get out to a show.

Best of luck,

Jim

The rigid wheelbase on a steamer is what it important, not the total length of an articulated.    A 2-10-2 has a longer rigid wheelbase than a 2-8-8-2 with the same diameter drivers.    The articulated frame bends in the middle so it is really just 2 2-8-0s.

As for radius, a lot of stuff, most probably will run on 48 inch radius maybe some requiring a little modification.     The larger wheelbase steamers particularly very high end brass will be the ones to give problems - and locos with rigid siderods.    The side rods connect the drivers to each other and on typical o-scale transfer power from the geared axle.     Some of the 3 rail mfg that dabble in 2-rail have made locos with all drivers flanged and rigid siderods - the MTH PRR 2-10-4 from late 90s I think is an example.    I reviewed one for a magazine.   It is a very nice model and pretty accurate to scale, but it required 68-72 inch radius curves.    I have a Max Grey model of the same loco that will go around 54 inch radius.   the MG does have blind center drivers.     Most brass is also made with hinged side rods, at each driver, allowing the drivers to adjust slightly for a curve.    Both the front and rear axles can move to the same side to allow for curvature.   With Ridgid siderods, moving the front axle to one side, as in entering a curver, forces the rear axle in the other direction much like a parallelogram.    I have never seen a brass loco built with rigid siderods - and I have not seen a diecast one built with hinged ones.

Diesels are much less forgiving on curves and as someone said the old Atlas and WEaver will easily handle 24 inch radius.    The problem you run into here is with coupler swing.    With Kadees in boxes, the coupler on a Weaver RS3 will be out over the outside rail on a 24 inch radius curve.    The anser is don't use the box and mount the couplers to swing.    But still body mount couplers - it is more reliable.

The oldtimer standard for curves was 48 inch radius.     I think even today most 4 axles diesels (I'm sure there is an exception) will handle that with ease with Kadee couplers making a decent connection.     You could could probably go tighter.    40-50 foot long cars (scale length) also would work fine on that and probably some bigger ones.

My mainline minimum radius is 52 inches.   I have a string of SS 3rd rail GGD coaches and pullmans (basically scale 80ft cars) that handle that and I think would handle 48 with no problem.    I have an A-B set of Atlas Erie-built diesels that have no problem along with an A-A set of SS GGD E7s.    

For steamers I have a few US Hobbies and SS Brass PRR models that do just fine including 4-8-2, 2-8-2, and 2-10-2 along with the 2-10-4 mentioned above.    The 2-10-4 complains a little but stays on the track.   

Now the GGD cars have limited underbody detail so they have wide truck swing, but I had to do no modifications and they work fine with Kadee couplers.

Orion The Hunter,

There are 2 other switch making companies I know of.

Signature Switches makes 2 rail switches for any configuration you can imagine. I bought a 3 way switch from them and it was reasonably priced and a beautifully engineered product. Tom Tee might be able to chime in more about these. I think he has used many of these.

0 Scale Switches, Inc. is a company in Michigan that advertises in 0 Scale Trains magazine.

Then again you could build your own and ROW has all of the cast frogs and points to make it even easier.

Thank you all very much. I hadn’t been on since I posted this morning and realized how much I had to read this evening on the subject. I can’t really reply to any one of you individually but I can say I definitely will be looking into the next soonest show and I’ll be market browsing to get a feel for pricing. My only real curiosity that I’ll absolutely need to figure out before doing any of this is will I have space. I keep seeing people say the curve radius and it seems like these are pretty wide curves. Not to say it’d be impossible for me to fit but I’m on very limited space and struggle to fit all of my 3 rail stuff right now and I’m running some pretty sharp curves with that. I use both O27 and modern O gauge 3 rail and between the two I’m hurting for space. Thanks to everyone. You guys seem devoted to this hobby and I hope after doing a little more research I can be as devoted. I’d like to keep a 3 rail setup as well but for the more realistic layout 2-rail is my preferred option.

It sounds like you don't have the 20' x 10' minimum I postulated above. 

There's one more option which is really "out of the box."  IF it's specifically the middle rail that bothers you,  you could convert your layout to "dead rail" operation (on board battery with direct radio control.)  Maybe put the battery and radio receiver in a trailing boxcar, and install a modular connector on each of your locos.  Then you could physically remove the pickup rollers and middle rail.  You would be left with very tight radius O gauge curves and no middle rail!  With a little ballast it would look pretty good.

Of course you would still have blind center driving wheels, oversized flanges, articulated pilots & steps on diesels, etc.  All the concessions necessary for operation on tight radius.  How realistic you want to get is up to you.  Even traditional 2-rail O scale makes some compromises, because the track gauge of 1.25" scales out to 5' instead of the prototype 4' 8 1/2".  

One disadvantage of  this "dead rail" approach:  Your track and equipment won't be inter-operable with anyone else's, if that matters to you.  FWIW.

Turnouts are an issue but not a show stopper.  I don't have any of the newest productions from I think the Signal Switch Co, although I understand they are great.  I have used Atlas, old Pullman and Roco, all have their pros and cons.  But when I started, I built all of my turnouts.  After 3 or 4, you really have it down.  Not as quick as some ready to lay items but very affordable.  If made on printed circuit ties, they can even be pulled up and reused somewhere else.  And you can make a switch that fits each application.  There are jigs out there to assist in shaping the components but if you hand make enough of there, you can get an eye for it.   

.  Someone mentioned the 70s era Atlas F9.  Aside from the wide wheels which can be easily replaced when you are ready, they run like tanks.  Good slowspeed op.  There is a lot of plastic in the trucks and the contacts wear down and pieces can snap off but you can keep them runnung forever.  They cannot compare with Sunset FT or F3 or even the new Atlas F3, but if you needed them, you could pick up 7-8 of the old atlas for the cost of a single Atlas DCC F.  If you are ever in NF Mryland off 95, LMK

I just checked out Signature switch Co. and that seems to be a reasonable solution, if not the answer.  Pricing is in line with Peco and Atlas and provides more possibilities.  I'll be calling on Monday with my questions.  Thanks to all for sharing your resources and knowledge, I could not have gotten to this point without your insight.

All of the above is useful information to you, but ultimately what your objectives are, how that can be achieved vs. budget, time, and space will drive your decision making process forward. 

Era and area modeled will define equipment that may or not be possible (reasonably) with the constraints of budget, time, and space.

Taking your time, learning what is immediately available vs. what you might be better served in making yourself, seeing what others have done is a useful pathway. 

Rushing forward tends to result in accumulation of "stuff" that gets sold later usually at a loss.

astarr posted:

.  Someone mentioned the 70s era Atlas F9.  Aside from the wide wheels which can be easily replaced when you are ready, they run like tanks.  Good slowspeed op.  There is a lot of plastic in the trucks and the contacts wear down and pieces can snap off but you can keep them runnung forever.  They cannot compare with Sunset FT or F3 or even the new Atlas F3, but if you needed them, you could pick up 7-8 of the old atlas for the cost of a single Atlas DCC F.  If you are ever in NF Mryland off 95, LMK

Another thing I like about them is that they have what I call a "proper" drive train: a centrally located motor, with drive shafts going to both trucks, all above the frame, a la a typical HO scale set-up.

Unlike the earlier Weaver drive, with the shaft connecting the trucks running beneath the frame. Let me add though that I do like my Weaver units, too! Here's one...

Mark in Oregon

Bic,

Here is a You Tube video of a mixed bag of O scale layouts that might help you find your way. As far as equipment there is a vast source of it on the "secondary" market, and if you are patient you can find almost anything you want. There are all kind of videos on You Tube from layouts to "how tos". Take your time and enjoy the trip.

Simon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAjrZ_t6w28

Welcome home, brother.  My war was 50 years ago. Don't be worried about two rail. I don't know of too much three rail that can't be converted.

Dick

Bicboy95 posted:

Thank you all very much. I hadn’t been on since I posted this morning and realized how much I had to read this evening on the subject. I can’t really reply to any one of you individually but I can say I definitely will be looking into the next soonest show and I’ll be market browsing to get a feel for pricing. My only real curiosity that I’ll absolutely need to figure out before doing any of this is will I have space. I keep seeing people say the curve radius and it seems like these are pretty wide curves. Not to say it’d be impossible for me to fit but I’m on very limited space and struggle to fit all of my 3 rail stuff right now and I’m running some pretty sharp curves with that. I use both O27 and modern O gauge 3 rail and between the two I’m hurting for space. Thanks to everyone. You guys seem devoted to this hobby and I hope after doing a little more research I can be as devoted. I’d like to keep a 3 rail setup as well but for the more realistic layout 2-rail is my preferred option.

Good Morning Bic,

When I got back into the hobby I honestly did not realize 2-Rail O Scale existed and started collecting 3-Rail equipment. After about 6  years of collecting I found out about it and was slightly frustrated. Though I am not a "proto48 guy", I would have elected to go with the 2-Rail for obvious reasons. I really like the 3-Rail layout I have been building for some years and know it will give me a sense of accomplishment and hours of fun because it already has.

With that being said, I extended the layout into an adjacent room whereas the lower level is 3-Rail but the upper level is 2-Rail. Now I am getting the best of both worlds. Though the 2-Rail section is not as large as the 3-Rail it certainly will be enough to make a statement and give me that "fix" I have been after for several years now. I don't know what the future may hold but as of now I feel good about this set-up.

I have collected so much 3-Rail equipment I can't imagine trying to sell it all to convert completely to 2-Rail, at least not at this point. I have been fortunate to have joined a 2-Rail club and in the short period of beginning my 2-Rail escapade have become aware of some great dealers, shows, and access to equipment. 

Good luck in your decisions and choices but as another member stated, take your time and do your research. This hobby has so many sides and just like life, the grass sometimes looks greener on the other side but make sure you make this decision for yourself and not allow others to push you in one direction or the other. 

Dave

CBQer posted:

 Don't be worried about two rail. I don't know of too much three rail that can't be converted.

Dick

All well and good, but why convert anything when there is a ton of stuff out there that doesn't need converting.  If you are going 2 rail, support the people that produce things for that side of the hobby.

Simon

There is another 2-rail alternative, S gauge. I got into it with the purchase of a American Flyer postwar set...cheap.

If you are looking to develop a working RR space need not be an issue entirely.  Yes curves take up a great deal of space but a switching layout can be constructed with that constraint removed for the most part.  I have a small 2R layout sitting next to me as I write this, it was an experiment.  Years ago I picked up some 2 rail track at the former show in Wind Gap Pa.  An Atlas Plymouth switcher, an Atlas SW switcher and 8-10 weaver cars properly weighted, converted to 2 rail and with the addition of Kadee couplers work the rails.  There are sophisticated control systems out there for 2 rail but for a small single loco RR direct DC works fine.  Short trains, slow speeds, manual turnouts (all used atlas tight radius switches with ground throws added in) provide a great deal of interest.  My basement is 2 R unfriendly and I was too invested in 3R to dump everything but you can use a smaller layout to develop your modeling skills until you get into that someday house.

Joe Hohmann posted:

There is another 2-rail alternative, S gauge. I got into it with the purchase of a American Flyer postwar set...cheap.

True, there is always that option... 

Mark in Oregon

One of the basic decisions to be made when considering a 2 rail O Scale layout is how much space is available and what kind of models and operation are you interested in.  We have seen many fine O scale layouts built in relatively small spaces.

The Rockford O Scalers group was formed in the early 1990s with an interest in running O Scale Transition Era models (steam/diesel, freight/passenger) for public display at train shows using a portable modular layout built to NMRA standards.  

Regarding space and track curvature considerations, our original layout was built using 60" and 64" mainline curves with no transition from the adjoining straight modules.  This radius was chosen as the original designers of the layout simply doubled what were reasonable HO radius curves.  However, it didn't take long for us to realize that we could only run small steam locomotives and diesels on these curves and full length passenger cars, which could be made to run on these curves, looked pretty awful doing so.

We subsequently built new double track mainline curves using 88" and 92" radius with transition sections.  These curves can accommodate any size O scale locomotive with no operational problems and 80 ft. scale length passenger cars now look good and operate well.

After we gave up moving the modular layout to train shows in 2005, it was permanently installed in the basement of one of our members.  Subsequently, a new layout addition was constructed around the outside of the original and features curves up to 132" radius.  Some of these curves also have super elevation.   

Based on our experience, the operational benefits of wide radius curves with transitions cannot be overstated, providing one has the room, of course.  The attached photos illustrate what these curves look like. 

Here are a few more photos of the curves on the ROS layout.  I failed to mention in the post above that another consideration in addition to curve radius and transition (or easement) into the curve is the spacing between two double track curves to make sure there will be no possibility of sideswipes of long locomotives or passenger cars.

Great layout Frank, be careful you might cause some 3 railers to think twice about the code 500 tubular triple rail. 

Erik C Lindgren posted:

Great layout Frank, be careful you might cause some 3 railers to think twice about the code 500 tubular triple rail. 

...................  ...............

Mark in Oregon

I would add that you may wanna check www.theoscaleresource.com for additional information and new releases. 

Also, this is spectacular.... ****!

When it comes to manufacturers, I'm a big fan of 3rd Rail and Atlas for HQ entry level models...

A lot of the discussion of Radius revolves around running trains in circles with  not purpose.    While this is fun and great to see nice models run, it is not the only option.

O Scale locos tend to be geared to run better than 3 rail, so operations including switching and car movement are possible, practicle, fun, and in my opinion preferable.    

You can build a layout with smaller curves and use smaller power and rolling stock or modified rolling stock and some sort of prototype based operations.      You can use car cards or switchlists generated manually with or with a computer.    JMRI with decoderpro has a builtin switchlist generator  for example.     Build lots of industrial sidings and some sort of interchange to move traffic on and off the layout.    

I have an O scale layout with about 40 industrial spots and I use 8 operators to run it.    My typical session requires about 3 1/2 hours and includes 14 trains.    There are 4 local freights, 2 local passnger trains, 4 transfer runs, 2 thru freights and 2 thru passenger trains.    My curves are 52 inch radius on the main and 48 on the branch to the coal mine.     I am in a round robin group with mostly HO modelers and it is great fun to operate on different RRs every week.      Large curves are not necessary for  passable O scale RR.    My HO buddies have never - never commented that my curves are too sharp.

Bic, I think you can have a lot of fun with 2-rail no matter what direction you go!

As shown so well in all the above posts there's a wide spectrum of possibilities in 2-rail. If the awesome ROS layout is the large end, and PRRJim's above is in the middle, maybe my modern freelanced short line could be the small end of the spectrum in terms of radius and rolling stock: I have 48" radius in visible areas and 36" radius curves with easements in hidden areas. My railhead is 53" off the floor which helps reduce the visual jarring of tighter radii.

Track is 90% flex from Atlas, Old Pullman and Micro Engineering in Code 148 and 125. Turnouts are mainly Atlas-Roco #6s plus some hand laid with ROW parts, and Signature Switch Co. custom curved switches to maximize staging capacity.

All my rolling stock has to negotiate the 36" radius. I use 4-axle Diesels, and my longest cars are 2-railed MTH CenterBeam flat cars. I try to by only buy used 2-rail locos and freight cars online and at shows to keep the budget under control. I do my best create a realistic operating experience with DCC, sound and ProtoThottle, and switchlists by ShipIt!  3 x 2-man crews take abut 3.5 hours to run a session with 8 trains and about 50 cars will get spotted and pulled.

Here are a couple of quick clips to give you an idea. There's a hidden 36" radius curve about 5 real feet to the left of this video and everything stayed on the rails!

Adding ProtoThrottle has made the engineer's experience a lot more realistic I feel.

Even Atlas dual-motor "China Drives" can be made to run fairly well with DCC, well apart from the initial starting anyway.

HTH

Pete 

Pete, Jim, nice work!  What are the room dimensions of your layout(s)?  Will you adopt me?  Or at least put me in your will!