GG1's and the NYC

@Michael Hokkanen posted:

Considering the historical time line and merger of the PRR and NYC into the Penn Central what do you think the likelihood is that NYC passenger trains were ever pulled by either PRR or Penn Central GG1's?

Any pictures would be amazing....

That would have been impossible since the New York Central did NOT have any 12,500 Volt single phase AC overhead catenary out of Grand Central Station.

Thanks so much. No possibility of NYC cars out of Philly?

@Michael Hokkanen posted:

Thanks so much. No possibility of NYC cars out of Philly?

Not really, ….you got to think about it, both roads were kinda hating it financially, that was the purpose of the merger in the first place, …..so equipment tended to stay put and operate in the areas they had been in before ,…….just under a new name, ……but hey, it’s your model, and in your world, pull the Century with a GG1, ….and do it like a boss,…..😉

Pat

@Michael Hokkanen posted:

Thanks so much. No possibility of NYC cars out of Philly?

You didn't ask about "NYC cars", you asked about "NYC passenger trains". In the Penn Central era, anything could have been possible, i.e. mixing cars.

I am not 100% sure about this: I recall hearing that, during the pre-merger era, New York Central passenger cars were pulled behind GG-1's when transporting West Point cadets to and from Army-Navy football games in Philadelphia.

Perfect response, great scenario!  Historic era with an Army Navy Game (PRR NYC Game?) and toy trains to boot!  I served 4 years in the Navy and 24 more in the Army, I win (and lose) every game.  Root for the Navy in the first half and the Army in the second half.  My layout is all about the PRR and NYC, with a nod to the LIRR, and our Soldiers and Sailors are great little passengers standing or sitting on the platforms.  

I don't recall any "convenient" connection between the Pennsylvania and NYC terminals on Manhattan, during the PC era.  The west end route into Penn Station was completed years later, I believe.  Interchange via the New Haven might have been feasible, but, why bother?  Any car-sharing would have been more likely in Ohio and westward.

@700E posted:

I am not 100% sure about this: I recall hearing that, during the pre-merger era, New York Central passenger cars were pulled behind GG-1's when transporting West Point cadets to and from Army-Navy football games in Philadelphia.

Just my opinion but, I find that hard to believe, i.e. "pre-merger era".

Almost all of the NYC Budd 56 Seat Coaches Delivered in Late 1947 went to Amtrak.  So pretty sure at some point, some could have ended up pulled by a GG-1.  Heck they could have been anywhere in the US.  Amtrak at least had the sense to make Beech Grove their Main Coach Shop.  Go NYC System!  LOL

@Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I find that hard to believe, i.e. "pre-merger era".

Jack, …maybe we missed something, ….instead of P&LE, ccc & St.L, &  LS&MC, …..maybe it was all PM?….😝😝😝

Pat

Stop it Pat "you are killing me". 

Also some NYC cars went to NJ Transit.

https://ogrforum.com/...1-4877-in-prr-livery

Some of the cars in those photos sure look like they came from NYC.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Stop it Pat "you are killing me". 

Also some NYC cars went to NJ Transit.

https://ogrforum.com/...1-4877-in-prr-livery

Some of the cars in those photos sure look like they came from NYC.

All in good jest, ….I’ve been the brunt of more than a few chuckles around here,…☺️

Pat

Being a Central fan, it is just hard to believe that some guys, just don't recognize how good it was.  "Everywhere East".  I am also a CB&Q Fan.

@Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I find that hard to believe, i.e. "pre-merger era".

The reason I think it's plausible, that a GG-1 might have pulled NYC passenger cars from West Point to the Army-Navy games in Philadelphia, is that the only railroad that had a station at West Point was the New York Central (West Shore line, specifically).  Passenger service was not terminated on the West Shore until the late 1950's.  I can't imagine anything other than NYC cars picking up the cadets at West Point, and also can't imagine that they were required to change to PRR cars in New Jersey.  But I could be wrong...

Just to be clear, I am NOT suggesting that a GG-1 was used at West Point.  I am suggesting that NYC cars were used to transport the cadets from West Point to Philadelphia, that the cars were pulled by NYC power to an interchange point in New Jersey, and that GG-1's took over from there.

That makes perfect sense.  Probably would have interchanged at Secaucus.  Not sure exactly where interchange switches were located, but NYC had trackage to Jersey City.  To avoid a lot of extra handling, the NYC steam/diesel would have gotten it as close as possible to PRR electrified line.  RR often allow trackage rights for specific movements.

@700E posted:

The reason I think it's plausible, that a GG-1 might have pulled NYC passenger cars from West Point to the Army-Navy games in Philadelphia, is that the only railroad that had a station at West Point was the New York Central (West Shore line, specifically).  Passenger service was not terminated on the West Shore until the late 1950's.  I can't imagine anything other than NYC cars picking up the cadets at West Point, and also can't imagine that they were required to change to PRR cars in New Jersey.  But I could be wrong...

You are not wrong at all.  GG1s did pick up the New York Central trains of West Point cadets.  Digital Image Works put out a VHS videotape titled "Pennsy Army-Navy Game Trains 1955-1965" which includes GG1s bringing in the New York Central trains that originated at West Point.  The films were shot at various locations in Philadelphia so there wasn't any information on where the hand-off from the NYC to the Pennsy occurred.   The B&O had its own (non-electrified) line to the stadium so the B&O trains came in behind B&O diesels but all the other trains came in on the Pennsy and most were pulled by GG1s.  The only exceptions were the local trains that were Pennsy MU cars: initially MP54s and later Silverliners.

If I remembered correctly, The Remarkable GG1 by Karl Zimmerman mentioned GG1s pulling NYC consists for the Army-Navy Specials.

@MainLine Steam posted:

That makes perfect sense.  Probably would have interchanged at Secaucus.  Not sure exactly where interchange switches were located, but NYC had trackage to Jersey City.  To avoid a lot of extra handling, the NYC steam/diesel would have gotten it as close as possible to PRR electrified line.  RR often allow trackage rights for specific movements.

The NYC/PRR interchange was in Jersey City via Weehawken and National junction via the New Jersy Junction RR, a wholly owned NYC susidiary.  4.44 miles south of Weehawken, that was the location of PRR's Waldo Aenue Yard.

That was a regular freight interchange.  At about the same location was the CNJ interchange that had a large daily volume of chemical traffic from the NYC to CNJ's  "chemical coast"

I recall seeing catenary overhead at that location.  It is where the H&M tubes (now PATH) came out of the tunnel.

That route must have origianlly been uilt to passenger train standards.  At one time there was through PRR-West Shore-D&H parlor car service between Atlantic Shore points and Saratoga.

I rode many a train during the merger timeframe on trains between Philly 30th Street and Trenton with Pennsy and NYC passenger cars behind G's

@Hot Water posted:

That would have been impossible since the New York Central did NOT have any 12,500 Volt single phase AC overhead catenary out of Grand Central Station.

NOT to mention that Grand Central Station had no direct connection to Penn Station.  I'm not sure if the NYC West Side Line even had a freight connection to Penn station until LIRR bought out the West sided Yards by the Javits Center.

@700E posted:

Just to be clear, I am NOT suggesting that a GG-1 was used at West Point.  I am suggesting that NYC cars were used to transport the cadets from West Point to Philadelphia, that the cars were pulled by NYC power to an interchange point in New Jersey, and that GG-1's took over from there.

IF I had to guess, the NYC Passenger trains trains would have been[ Marrone!] Bayonne, NJ as there was electrified lines at oak point yard across the Newark Bay Bridge or at the other end near the Budweiser Brewery.

@DENIS ORAVEC 110218 posted:

I rode many a train during the merger timeframe on trains between Philly 30th Street and Trenton with Pennsy and NYC passenger cars behind G's

Interchange of NYC, PRR and NH passenger cars was easy after PC acquired the New Haven in 1969.  NH used HW coaches on commuter trains between Grand Central and New Haven.  At New Haven, there was switching of passenger cars on trains to and from Penn Station.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

IF I had to guess, the NYC Passenger trains trains would have been[ Marrone!] Bayonne, NJ as there was electrified lines at oak point yard across the Newark Bay Bridge or at the other end near the Budweiser Brewery.

Interchange was at National Jct., adjacent to the PRR Waldo Ave. yard.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

NOT to mention that Grand Central Station had no direct connection to Penn Station.  I'm not sure if the NYC West Side Line even had a freight connection to Penn station until LIRR bought out the West sided Yards by the Javits Center.

There was not a connection ever for freight traffic.  The PRR tunnles could not be used for regualr freight traffic.  The LIRR (and later Amtrak) connection was never used for regular frieght service.

I appreciate the knowledgable discussion here...thanks.