H-24-66 "Train Master."

Freight service. 

I don't believe they were used for any specific service, like coal trains.  More than likely just the "try some from column A" approach in the first generation of dieselization.

Rusty

These Bad Boys were used in Columbus for transfer service, Johnstown for helper service and 8707 anchored down the Brilliant Branch here in the 'Burgh.  At least that's how it more or less started.  In the end they all went to Columbus, with the final operable unit, #6700, serving in chicago.  All were kaput by the end of 1970, and scrapped at various times there after.  Used primarily for tranfer work and helper duty.  Pennsy and Reading were the only roads I know of that opted for the full 4K gal. fuel capacity...in three tanks.  Of course these guys had trainphone, natch.

Jaygee has pretty much nailed it. You can also find the motive power divisional assignment rosters on Jerry Britton's website: Keystone Crossings. They are listed by the PRR nomenclature. ex: EF-15, AF-15, etc.

I do know for certain there were no Trainmasters rostered in the NY and Phila regions/divisions.

Thank you for all the information.

I remember now reading about their use in Columbus.

think something I found a while back on the internet searching for something else.

Here's the preserved CP 8905:

I believe the unit's traction motors have been removed.

Bob

Prime mover still inside ??

Yes, I believe so.

Bob

There's a pair of NS slugs made from Trainmasters that survive - one is with a RDG railroad group, and the other belongs to the Virginia Transportation Museum. Kitbashers will need to rebuild the hoods and cabs, but the all important trucks and frames are intact. 

Pennsy tested the TM early on; 1953, and found the big fellows quite satisfactory. By the end of that year, however, PRR embarked on a Diesel buying slowdown to concentrate on better utilization of what was already onboard.  The 1956 order was a get your feet wet type of affair, which if anything went even better than the experience with the TM1&2 demos.  As a result, in '57. the Penn approached FM for a price on a really significant order of up to fifty units initially.  The story is that the Penn also wanted to obtain the rights to duplicate certain of the prime mover parts in their own Altoona facilities.  Made perfect sense, after just getting burned with the Baldwin bailout of 1956 and the T1 aftermarket/licence issues of '52-'53.  It would seem that FM was willing to consider this, but over time the details could not be worked out, and Pennsy threw in the towel on FM.  The fifty unit order instead was split between Alco (25 RSD12s)  and EMD (25 SD9s) and the nine TMs would be orphans as a class.  If the deal had gone down, it's possible that PRR might have picked up even more than the initial fifty units.  The following year, FM built their last TrainMasters for VGN, and the model was done.  Too bad...waaaay too bad !

If there hadn't been a proxy fight going on at FM, the IC very likely would have followed through with an order for 75 Train Masters.  That might have kept FM going for another few years.

Ultimately, the OP engine was most likely the downfall of FM, with the railroad mechanical departments unfamiliarity and increased labor, maintenance costs for working on the bottom cylinders.

Rusty

it's true the engines were ultimately the TM's downfall. the FM OP engine was delveloped for marine applications, and could not stand up to the prolonged rough duty of every day railroading.

For a moment, assume we can turn back the clock to ride this 1973 excursion. Would anyone care to join me aboard that open car right behind the locomotives?

I wonder if anyone made a sound recording?

Bob

Lots of TM recordings, but none on the N&W/ VGN that I'm aware of.  The OP engine was a PITA to work on, but ESPEE made it work because of all those Navy trained OP mechanics in Cal. with lotsa time on USN boats in the Pacific.  The OP was made better for the railroad trade over the 19 years it was offered, but like all railroad  Diesel engines except EMD, it had to be maintained "by the book". FWIW, we need some sheet metal enthusiasts to grab hold of those slugs and get 'em remonstered!  Would cost a ton less than a major steam restoration for a static display piece, and a wee bit more than a steam job for the all out working chooch... unless you insist on twin motors and Magne-Traction !

An interesting story regarding the unfortunate demise of the last intact N&W Train Master has circulated for years. Following the order to cut down the Train Masters into slugs, some employees at Shaffers Crossing reportedly buried a TM in the middle of a large group of deadlined locomotives to hide it from upper management with the intent to save it from conversion. 

Continuing the story, a fan aboard a passing excursion train spotted the unit and, in his excitement, wrote to the railroad's upper management thanking them for preserving it. The news of the locomotive's existence was apparently not well received at headquarters as the "fur flew"and those at the shop responsible were told in no uncertain terms to cut it and cut it fast. The 173 was the last operating N&W Train Master and ran with the Bicentennial SD45 on an excursion train on the Fourth of July in 1976. I don't know if the 173 was the unit they attempted to hide.  

This story was recounted for me by a trusted source, hardly a foamer type, and an N&W employee with whom I later spoke was familiar with it so I tend to think it's probably true.

Bob    

Does audio exist anywhere?    I am seeking a soundtrack for my TM models and word is that they do not exist.

THanks,

BRad

Yes, there are some recordings.  Most are probably not suitable quality for sound system use.

BTW, Lionel recorded the last surviving "Baby" TM (H16-66) at a TVA power plant and has used that in some of their FM models.  It's a 16 cylinder rather than a 24, but closer than the 10 & 12 cylinder switchers that still exist.  Problem is Lionel won't offer it for separate sale.  (Nor will they sell their Baldwin sound units).

BradA:

The old Arkay/L&H Railsonics albums of diesel sound recordings are now available in CD format from Daylight Sales. "First Generation Diesels Volume 1" features superb tracks of Southern Pacific Train Masters.

Here's a link the album on Daylight Sales' website:

http://www.daylightsales.com/p...2_12/products_id/539

The quality of the recordings is outstanding.

Bob

I was in Roanoke in early '81 and both NW 173 and the Ex Wabash Alco repower job were intact...with 173 still operable (maybe).  Both were cut sometime afterwards, but these were not hidden in anyway.  The 3592 IIRC, was being used as a bumper over at Schaeffers.  I have the Arkay CD, and it is most excellent.  The sound here is very similar to that of the big CNJ 'Monsters used on the NY&LB trains through Elizabeth, NJ. up through '69.  The DL&W FMs had a slightly different sound, being a touch slower in RPM and with a more "animated" exhaust note than what I remember of the others.

 Just a couple of FM pics from around Calgary

Al

That would have been a nice consist to see running.

Bob,

Thanks for the link. I picked up one of those CD's because I have never heard a T/M run. I was quite surprised to find out it sounds just like a big airplane!

OK, SP's were equipped with steam generators.  Who else had them?

I have run q passenger train with a BW and some Daylight painted cars.  TM's were not prime passenger power on SP, but the train rocks on the layout!

SP sent all OP engines to the bay area.  Not only did those fex-navy people know how to trat tehm, but the cooler, non dirty climate helped.

I even enjoy running my LIONEL plain Jane trainmasters. AC motor and no sound.

You can bet the PRR 8699-8707 saw MG tower on numerous occations.  The Keystone featured a great article on these guys some time back; great history and some decent color photos too.

Railroads operating Train Masters equipped with steam generators were CN, CP, CNJ, DL&W, RDG (8 of 17 units), SP and Wabash. The four demonstrator units had them as well.

Bob 

I just got my MTH PRR 8707 Non- Powered unit from da bay today! NOw I must part with my MIB K-line conventional TM #8706.

The Details on the Latest MTH TM's is Awesome and near perfect!

Yeah, I got the DL&W phase 2 'Monster, #860 in 2/3...and she's definately got the stuff.  Kudos to MTH on this chooch. Last time I saw the Lackawanna's running, it was a bitter cold Saturday morning - Jan.'68, in Secacus, NJ. and three of the big girls had just come in off an eastbound freight.  One was still in the Erie inspired black and yellow paint. They were absolutely filthy, yet were all still running and not making a huge amount of smoke either.  The two phase 2s were also seen in Youngstown in the summer of '72, dead and even worse shape.

I've posted a group of photos of CNJ's units along with an interesting story about their retirement on this thread:

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/12974798582435735

Bob

Columbus transfer service always tended to have interesting PRR power.  In the steam days it was the home of the PRR's few Mallets and N&W class Y leftovers.

Bob

If the OP engines were a PITA to fix in a locomotive, I guess it would have been worse in a SUB!

The bubblehead assignment was actaully a lot easier on the prime movers than RR service.  It was the success in USN boats that gave FM the idea about building locomotives as a market for their engines.  The Navy was also a bit more particular about engine care than most US railroads. 

There is a very good look at the VGN Trainmasters in the latest issue of The Arrow from the N&W Historical Society.

George Lasley

I mentioned on another thread that the US Coast Guard still uses FM op's in their Bay class icebreaking tugs.

Having explored a couple of subs and read a lot of books, the access to the engines was actually easier in some respects.  On the subs, the engines were also babied as they were critical to the boat's survival.  There were also four on each boat.  The time that all four engines would be online were not all that often and even then for short periods.  Another apparent factor the cooling system in the locomotives was not as robust as it was on the subs where there was easy access to coolant.  

One thing that I've found interesting; in several books by sub skippers, there are repeated references to taking advantage of the brown/grey haze that was created by the engines when they were surfaced and poured on the coal with all four engines in order to escape from the scene.  The exhaust apparently created  enough of a smoke screen to make it more difficult for the Japs to locate them visually.  

Bob