Hafner?

I would venture a guess that there are some Hafner Collectors, but they would be few and far between.  The biggest factor against Hafner, is they are only Wind Up locos.  Hafner never produced anything powered, so with it strictly being a Wind Up, the market itself, and collectibility just isn't there.  The one ironic thing with the Hafner wind up motors, is that Lionel did use Hafner motors, but they were only issued in the European Market, and never for sale stateside.  This was referenced from the book "Early American Toy Trains-(Greenberg)", which also has two other sections covering Calisle & Finch and Dorfan.  The book is an interesting read into understanding the histories of Carlisle & Finch-Hafner-Dorfan.

When I was in purchasing mode, I wish I had purchased more than the one Hafner 1010 locomotive and assorted cars I have in my wind up collection.

When I started collecting Hafner, the early stuff resembling Flyer were pretty pricey so my collection was mostly the later streamliner types as seen in the old photo's below. Prices on the earlier started dropping so my collection has gone more to the earlier types and much of the streamliner ones have been sold.

Steve

I replaced my first train, a yellow streamlined Hafner, just last year. Then I bought another loco just like it and put a Marx motor in it. It looks original.

Goodie! I figured somebody collected it, and there was more to it than the one set l barely remember.  Thanks for posting. 

I have quite a lot of Hafner but have recently been focusing on the earlier pre-Wyandotte stuff. 1010s and 2000, 970, 115041 streamliners are nice and pretty bullet-proof, but I like the earlier 1110 locos too. I also have an early tin 100 loco that was issued during WW I when cast iron was scarce (according to the book TeleDoc mentioned). That is now in the hands of Windup Guy hopefully getting a few new drive wheels. As a product line goes, Hafner produced just a few freights and passenger cars, but they sure mixed it up with all of the variations. Some of the 8-wheel Overland Flyer Pullmans will cost you an arm and a leg.

Have a picture from 1955 ( I was 5 at the time ) with my Dad and I playing with a tin train at Christmas. I couldn't make out the manufacturer and somehow I was steered towards a gentleman who was co-author of Greenberg Guide to Early American Toy Trains, Paul Doyle. I sent him my picture and he knew exactly what I had....a Wyandotte set 2158 ( black 970 locomotive,  brown Santa Fe boxcar, green sandcar, and red caboose.). I never knew what happened to the set after all the years, but I was determined to find one, preferably, in pristine condition. I kept all the letters Paul sent , learning not only about Hafner trains, but his personal life. It's fascinating the backgrounds of train enthusiasts. I purchased the Greenburg Guide to American Toy Trains as a referral to start my search. I hadn't used Ebay back then so it was a trek thru many  train shows for years, without results. Then, one day out for that Saturday/Sunday drive, I stopped by antiques shop aprox 25 miles from home. BAM.....THERE IT WAS.....and in ALMOST MINT condition. I bought it from the elderly lady storeowner, in a heartbeat. Twenty five miles away ......I couldn't believe it !!!!!  In the years since, I have added a yellow Wyandotte sand car, a blue FNP sand car, and an orange/brown Sante Fe boxcar to make a very colorful consist. The train set comes off the shelf each Christmas to help decorate......now, I need a picture of my son and I playing with that tin train !!

Taconite Hauler posted:

Have a picture from 1955 ( I was 5 at the time ) with my Dad and I playing with a tin train at Christmas. I couldn't make out the manufacturer and somehow I was steered towards a gentleman who was co-author of Greenberg Guide to Early American Toy Trains, Paul Doyle. I sent him my picture and he knew exactly what I had....a Wyandotte set 2158 ( black 970 locomotive,  brown Santa Fe boxcar, green sandcar, and red caboose.). I never knew what happened to the set after all the years, but I was determined to find one, preferably, in pristine condition. I kept all the letters Paul sent , learning not only about Hafner trains, but his personal life. It's fascinating the backgrounds of train enthusiasts. I purchased the Greenburg Guide to American Toy Trains as a referral to start my search. I hadn't used Ebay back then so it was a trek thru many  train shows for years, without results. Then, one day out for that Saturday/Sunday drive, I stopped by antiques shop aprox 25 miles from home. BAM.....THERE IT WAS.....and in ALMOST MINT condition. I bought it from the elderly lady storeowner, in a heartbeat. Twenty five miles away ......I couldn't believe it !!!!!  In the years since, I have added a yellow Wyandotte sand car, a blue FNP sand car, and an orange/brown Sante Fe boxcar to make a very colorful consist. The train set comes off the shelf each Christmas to help decorate......now, I need a picture of my son and I playing with that tin train !!

ahh, but the blue FNP sand car is technically not Hafner. It is from the Plastimarx era when the Hafner equipment was bought by Louis Marx and moved to Mexico to reduce the competition. Marx made dozens of gondolas, cabeese and boxcars using the Hafner equipment. Plastimarx is yet another collecting niche.

Neat story about your glomming that childhood Hafner set. That was a coup.  I am sure mine was very common, from the '50's, and am not looking for it.  Collect too much already, and am not going there.

Hello Hafner fans ....

here is an innocent photo from the WWW..note egg in gondola ..... hope it is hard boiled ..or the resale value of this train was diminished upon it's cranking.

Wind it up and watch it go

Cheers Carey

PS last time I wound mine up it went like the wind .... warranty on Hafner must have been 90+ years 

Yes, Jim.....you are correct about the blue sand car being Plastimarx.

However, seeing that it has a lineage from Wyandotte to Hafner, to Marx, to Plastimarx , allows it to be considered in the makings of a very colorful tin train set. Now if I could only find the FNP red sandcar.  BTW, I live 30 minutes from the location of  the old Louis Marx Toy Co. in Girard, Pa.  I probably had Marx toys as a young kid too !

Well, you certainly don't have to worry about compatibility. That's for sure. The plastic seven-inch passenger cars are pretty elusive too but I really like the variations of the Ferrocarilles cabeese and especially the yellow open gondola.

Here's an example of the early and late Hafner passenger trains.

Ealy

Late

Hafner trains do in generally not like to be run on 3-rail track, at least the versions with a bell; this makes Hafner less popular I assume. The actuator for the bell is designed to touch the sleepers and will be in the way on three rail track. I bent the actuator to run Hafner trains on my 3-rail track.

Regards

Fred

Robert S. Butler posted:

Here's an example of the early and late Hafner passenger trains.

 

Ealy

 

Late

Why does the early Hafner look so much like early American Flyer? Were they connected somehow?

RoyBoy posted:

Robert S. Butler posted:

Here's an example of the early and late Hafner passenger trains.

 

Ealy

 

Late

Why does the early Hafner look so much like early American Flyer? Were they connected somehow?

Hafner worked for American Flyer during the Chicago years, eventually splitting off to found Hafner in 1914. There is speculation (heard this from Greg) that Hafner and AF worked together for a few years after the split on some designs due to similarity.

RoyBoy posted:

Robert S. Butler posted:

Here's an example of the early and late Hafner passenger trains.

 

Ealy

 

Late

Why does the early Hafner look so much like early American Flyer? Were they connected somehow?

When Hafner left AF he took nothing with him and had filed no patents for his clockwork designs or other trains, so both Hafner and AF coaches (specifically the 1100 and 1200 series AF consists) looked very similar. I have seen other opinions expressed here in on other forums that quite a few cast iron and possibly Hummer AF locos continued to be driven by Hafner clockwork well into the late teens. I agree that the Overland Flyer coaches look pretty **** close to the 1107 Flyer Pullmans, but they also resemble some Bing 210 and 516 metalwork coaches of the same era. So, it is entirely possible it was cheaper for both companies to buy passenger coach shells from Bing and adorn them at the factory before assembly.

One of my favorite Hafner loco's

Geez, y'all are making me want some Hafner. Can't decide if I like the cast iron era better or the more modern stuff. Guess I'll need to sample both! LOL  

That blue one is tres cool! Are the tender and engine in different time frames?

Jim O'C posted:

 

 So, it is entirely possible it was cheaper for both companies to buy passenger coach shells from Bing and adorn them at the factory before assembly.

Not if I understand you correctly. If a coach is lithographed, the printing takes place on a blank sheet of metal, then the sheet is punched and formed into the shape and size required. In effect, it is decorated/adorned before it is formed, so what you are suggesting could not happen.

Tinplate Art posted:

That blue one is tres cool! Are the tender and engine in different time frames?

Art, they are from the same time frame.

Steve

I think Steve "Papa" has the market cornered on tinplate....lol

at least on the west coast.....

I don't have a huge collection of Hafner, but I do enjoy the ones that are in my fleet.  The Hafner windup motor is a reliable, well governed motor.  My only complaint is that they can be very difficult to repair due to the nature of the "basket winder" on the mainspring and the design of the front axle.  Regardless, the Hafner trains are a fixture in the windup world, and the cast iron locomotives have a ton of character.

Hello Hafner folks

Fred the video of your Hafners running outside on a garden loop are great !!!  The little engines loves those wide turns .. thank you for posting .

Cheers Carey

sncf231e posted:

Hafner trains do in generally not like to be run on 3-rail track, at least the versions with a bell; this makes Hafner less popular I assume. The actuator for the bell is designed to touch the sleepers and will be in the way on three rail track. I bent the actuator to run Hafner trains on my 3-rail track.

i have seen this fix before and it is really unnecessary.  rather than bend the clapper, loosen the motor (only held on by one screw) and when it drops down a bit, pivot the clapper and pin it behind the bell.  a lot easier to visualize with an engine in hand.

[edit:  i'll have to modify this a bit... this fix works for the 1010 locomotives, but the bells on the 1110 locomotives are mounted too close to the motor to give the clapper the space it needs.]

think all manufacturers didn't consider the tradition of trains around the Christmas tree? ...

most of the 1110 locomotives came with either a dummy or working (battery op) headlight.

i don't have a red "Hafner Lines" tender for this one, but their Santa Fe tender matches up nicely.

and here are a few less commonly seen Hafner cars.

left:  Adams Express Baggage with 'mottled' brown frame.
center:  Overland Flyer Express Baggage with boxcar roof.
right:  lighted Overland Flyer observation car.

cheers...gary

overlandflyer posted:

sncf231e posted:

Hafner trains do in generally not like to be run on 3-rail track, at least the versions with a bell; this makes Hafner less popular I assume. The actuator for the bell is designed to touch the sleepers and will be in the way on three rail track. I bent the actuator to run Hafner trains on my 3-rail track.

i have seen this fix before and it is really unnecessary.  rather than bend the clapper, loosen the motor (only held on by one screw) and when it drops down a bit, pivot the clapper and pin it behind the bell.  a lot easier to visualize with an engine in hand.

[edit:  i'll have to modify this a bit... this fix works for the 1010 locomotives, but the bells on the 1110 locomotives are mounted too close to the motor to give the clapper the space it needs.]

Thank you,

That is a much better method and it works for my 1010!

Regards

Fred

as long as it's the topic, here is a little warning i like to pass on about Hafner CI that i've never seen documented anywhere and it has to do with the 'stretch' model in the early cast iron series, the #112 locomotive...

the #112 is very identifiable with its two boiler bands, but the problem encountered is with the motor.  if your #112 had siderods that keep falling out of the cylinder pockets, chances are you have a motor someone has substituted from the much more common #109 locomotive.

here is a #109 with the siderods placed in the same position but notice where the bend occurs.  the correct motor for a #112 has drive rods that are ~¼" longer and without this extra length, they will either slip out or worse, jam and cause the wheels to lock-up.

cheers...gary

for the first 16-17 years of their existence, all Hafner locomotives were cast iron except for two oddballs.  the first occurred in the 1917-1919 timeframe when war shortages forced Hafner to turn to pressed steel to supplement their cast iron line...

i've got to imagine this model either replaced or heavily supplemented the economy sets that were headed by the #100.  without a brake or siderods and with the extremely spartan detail, you can't get much more plain-Jane, though it did still feature their standard, solid performing, clockwork motor.

 the other unique locomotive was produced (1931-32) to supposedly cut down on shipping weight, the aluminum cast #112(late)...

you only have to handle this model briefly to realize something isn't right.  though it is larger than any other cast model Hafner produced it is by far the lightest and since weight translates to traction, you can probably guess its not a very powerful locomotive, though i've never put it through any extensive testing.  one caution when looking to buy this engine, the increased length dictated the need to extend the brake control lever...

just another tip to make sure you get the correct motor.  Doyle states in Greenberg that this modified motor sometimes appeared in other models, but personally i've never seen another besides the one in my locomotive.

i would certainly like to know if anyone has ever seen a valid set with either of these two engines.
cheers...gary

Here is a set with the aluminum 112. It also had the harder to find longer coaches.

Steve

thanks for that picture, Steve.  i especially like all the accessories in that set!  the bridge and clock are two pieces i've yet to come across, not that i'm actively looking for much of anything these days.  i forgot about those big 6¼" cars as they really don't look right mixed in with anything else Hafner.  here is a shot of one next to one of the more common 5½" cars...

unlike the larger Flyer cars, these aren't just longer, they're bigger in every dimension.  but i can also see how the #112(late) aluminum locomotive probably wouldn't have that hard of a time dealing with only 6 - 8 axles in the entire consist and with a size more fitting than any other Hafner loco of that era.

cheers...gary

Comparison of the Three Manufacturers 4 Wheel Passenger Cars

I added the STOP FEATURE to my Hafner/Wyandotte layout as well as a WOLVERINE COAL LOADER that will unload marbles into the V shaped trough of a Hafner gondola.  Here are the videos.

overlandflyer posted:

for the first 16-17 years of their existence, all Hafner locomotives were cast iron except for two oddballs.  the first occurred in the 1917-1919 timeframe when war shortages forced Hafner to turn to pressed steel to supplement their cast iron line...

i've got to imagine this model either replaced or heavily supplemented the economy sets that were headed by the #100.  without a brake or siderods and with the extremely spartan detail, you can't get much more plain-Jane, though it did still feature their standard, solid performing, clockwork motor.

 the other unique locomotive was produced (1931-32) to supposedly cut down on shipping weight, the aluminum cast #112(late)...

you only have to handle this model briefly to realize something isn't right.  though it is larger than any other cast model Hafner produced it is by far the lightest and since weight translates to traction, you can probably guess its not a very powerful locomotive, though i've never put it through any extensive testing.  one caution when looking to buy this engine, the increased length dictated the need to extend the brake control lever...

just another tip to make sure you get the correct motor.  Doyle states in Greenberg that this modified motor sometimes appeared in other models, but personally i've never seen another besides the one in my locomotive.

i would certainly like to know if anyone has ever seen a valid set with either of these two engines.
cheers...gary

Thanks for posting this one, Gary. I have one of the sheetmetal locos currently being freshened by Windup Guy but it lacks the front boilerplate. The mechanism still runs great but it was missing a few wheels and the governor needed attention.

Hafner 1200 Accessory Set.

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

Hafner 1200 Accessory Set.

nice set, but my least favorite boxtop graphic...

there... that's better!  

for the most part, Hafner only made five common cast iron locomotive styles from 1914 until the early 30's.  the early design, #100, #109 & #112 and the late #109 & #110 shells.  but if you think there isn't enough here to form a collection, think again.

the early #100 and #109/110* locomotives are the easiest to find.  here is the basic #100 economy locomotive...

it has no brake and since the cylinder castings are incomplete, it cannot support siderods.

*[i have an issue with Greenberg (Doyle) when it comes to his listing of the #109 & #110 (early) locomotives which probably happened in editing.  the text states, "Number taken from shell casting and from catalogue.", but no matter how you interpret it, i do not believe a shell casting with an embossed "110" exists since his description of the #109 & #110 shells are identical, the only difference being the motor.  his listing of a #109 uses the same plain motor as in the model #100 while his listing for the #110 has a motor with brake and siderods attached.  so, while #110 might be a catalog designation, all shells (i have seen) are stamped "109R" and "109L".  to be less confusing, i only refer to this shell as a #109 locomotive regardless of the motor it uses though i sometimes designate basic or deluxe model where appropriate.]

with that out of the way, in comparison, the #109 is very similar in design but about ½" longer...

the most distinguishing difference between the two shells is the location of the motor mounting screw.  on the #100 it is centered on the cylinder centerline (no hole is on the opposite side) and on the #109, the screw is located behind the cylinder (there are holes on both sides, but only the right side of the motor is tapped to hold the mounting screw).  and of course if it does have siderods, it must be a #109, while having a brake without any siderods is almost certainly a motor that used to have siderods.

as a collector, you could stop at these two basic models, but what fun would that be.

there are three motor variations that Hafner produced during the cast iron era...

the economy motor was the only one found in the #100 model.

the friction wheel brake was the early deluxe motor design...

replaced with the paddle/ pivot brake in later production.

a note about the two different brake designs.  the early friction wheel brake was the more complex mechanism in comparison, and is by far the better of the two in my opinion.  while this design uses spring tension to hold the friction brake in place, the paddle design is a lever which throws a pin into the governor which can easily damage the governor especially if the brake lever is used while the motor is not turning.

three different motor variations, ok but the differences do not stop there...  notice the wheels which went through three different versions from 1914 to 1932.  the earliest models featured 10-spoke cast iron drivers, but shortly after war shortages started to affect the industry, these were replaced with two different variations of 8-spoked stamped steel drivers which i refer to as curved (early) and flat spoke (later) versions.

from top to bottom, the three motors shown display the three different wheels... flat spoke, cast iron and curved spoke.  i have no hard data on this, but from my experience i'd say the cast iron wheel motors are much less common than the other two.

getting the groups together...

the three different wheeled #100 models...

and three different deluxe #109 models.

to eliminate a few variations, i doubt if you will find a paddle brake on a motor with cast iron wheels or a wheel brake with flat spoke wheels, but when you do the math that is still a lot of engines.  and of course the #109 was apparently available with the economy motors, but seeing they are completely interchangeable, to me that makes them a needless find.

and if you hadn't noticed before now... check the boiler bands.  while the only color i've seen on the #109 shell is the basic grey metal band, i have both a red and a gold boiler band versions of the #100.

fun stuff!
cheers...gary