Just to set the record straight, the proposed Kohs and Key BB's will be $6000, not $10,000. That's still a ton of money, but a lot less than the $10K figure being stated in this thread.  No Kohs or Key O scale models are ever sold unpainted unless by special order. Both the proposed Kohs and Key BB models will have sound and DCC as all Kohs models produced in the last decade+ have had. Both the Kohs and Key BB's will have ball-bearings on all axle and drive points and will run like Swiss watches. Just wanted to be fair to all, since it became a focal point of the discussions. 

 

Butch

I suspect that once you pass about $1700 for a model, whether it is six grand or ten will not affect the market much.  I find it difficult to picture a hobbyist who can afford a six grand model, but cannot scrape up ten grand.

 

I read the critiques on the 3RS forum.  One stunning discussion was the location and lettering of number boards on a Daylight Northern.  I know of no 2-rail SP nut who ever lost sleep over such things, but it really bothered the 3RS crowd.

 

When I say that below the floor is inaccurate, I mean not only flanges and couplers, but also that area on freight cars that is wiped clean of center sills and bolsters so an almost perfect PS-1 plastic boxcar can go around corners.  Or those siderods on what are essentially scale steamers above the running boards.

 

The average O scaler (as opposed to the collector of Key models) is quite happy with models not quite as perfect as the above mentioned PS-1 boxcar.  My boxcars are all Scale Craft and All-Nation - cannot hold a candle to that Lionel plastic deal.  I know, because I have one, with full length center sill and bolsters.

 

So, yeah!  I personally think that the 3 rail scale movement has driven the average level of detail and accuracy dramatically upward for 2-railers.  It is your right to feel otherwise.

I probably saw a Challenger.   Joe

I suspect that once you pass about $1700 for a model, whether it is six grand or ten will not affect the market much.  I find it difficult to picture a hobbyist who can afford a six grand model, but cannot scrape up ten grand.

 

 

No doubt, but my statement was only to correct inaccuracies about a $10K, unpainted, Kohs BB, that has not been produced yet and the statement these expensive models wouldn't run as good as Lionel BB. Just trying to keep the facts straight for those who might not know. Obviously, these are very expensive toys with a special sort of buyer. 

 

Butch

 

 

Joe,

 

The Challengers are sold out and cost $5500.00. Kohs did have a 1/16th scale, unpainted BB at one of the shows a few years back built by his then builder S.J. Models (Mr. Lee) that was incredible. I heard rumors there were several made for buyers around the world at $100,000.00 a copy. Now that is for a very special buyer/collector. 

 

Butch

obviously a dreamer on the price or you misread the tag. many people try to get higher prices on items hoping for an uninformed person with money will purchase, but that isn't the going price. i bought a c9+ 746 N&W long stripe with factory box for 65.00 so all 746 pricing should be based on my lucky find?? on the evil forbidden website there are 2 key locos, a big boy at 3200 and the challenger at 2600 2 locos just above half of your 10,000. price.  it is so nice that people quote something and now all 2 railers are warren buffet/bill gates equals in their 2 rail purchases.

as i said before there are many 2 railers who purchased used locos at great prices or buy new atlas/Mth which sell for the same money as their 3 rail equals. you can enjoy 2 or 3 rail with an equal budget or if you have the money you can have hundreds of locos like a friend of mine has in 3 rail. but like someone driving a 97 chevy cavalier that laughs at someone in a new mercedes that they wasted money why worry what someone else does with their money unless they are asking you for a loan. 

Okay, you asked, and my answer isn't going to be popular.

All scales are splintered in regard to low end and high end (in HO, it's old TYCO with horn hooks and cheap plastic stuff, v/s brass and high end plastic stuff), but nowhere do you see the hobby as splintered as in O. Neither the 2 or 3 rail folks understand one another or have much use for the other. But I would suggest that more 2-rail stuff is useful for 3-rail than the other way around.

I always thought that 3-rail came first, in regard to the stuff being made. Maybe I'm wrong about that?

Either way, I would argue that a lot of toy-like stuff being made in O scale that couldn't be used for the serious scale (also 2-rail) would be better made as better quality items that could be used for any version of O scale. With that, I mean just about anything other than running gear for locos or trucks for freight/passenger cars.

So, in that sense, I think that 2-rail is being harmed by 3-rail, to a degree.

The snobbery of each side sure isn't helping, either, but every scale (or hobby, for that matter) has that.

p51 if you are talking scale sized locomotives and cars Lionel did the 700E in 1937 but there were 2 railers such as Paul Egolf that built scale locomotives and cars in the late 1920's.

Joshua Lionel Cowen's first train was a display item and for the 3 railers RAN ON A 2 Rail track system  OMG please say its not true?????. so JLC was a 2 railer 1st in 1900 6 years latter he added the 3rd rail. so i guess 2 rail came first to answer your question.

for you unbelievers you can Bing first Lionel train made. 

Maybe I should have been more specific in that I had assumed that for the most part, 3-rail got going as a viable scale/gauge before 2 rail got to the same level.

Going back through really old model railroad publications, you see so much more for 3 rail than 2 rail...

early scale items were what was called outside 3rd rail. as many didn't have the technology to insulate the drivers. but if you look at early MR and Model Craftsman  later called RMC there were a lot of 2 railers. Fred Icken, Minton Cronkite, Bill Lenoir,and many more. as an interesting side note John Armstrong track planning specialist actually had a O scale outside 3rd rail layout till his death, but i would class him as a 2 railer rather than 3 railer for everything he had was scale. way before this round of "scale" inside 3rd rail!!! 

Let me try this so as not to offend anyone.

 

I'm in agreement with Ed and AGHRMatt that it works both ways. It has worked out better for me, but I can see the point of view of the purists. Much of the 2/3 rail stuff is of no use to them, so no, 3 rail has not helped.   

 

I have benefitted mostly with 3rd Rail stuff, but their detail levels generally are not as high as the levels of the exclusive 2 rail imported models on my layout not to mention the standard compromises for 3 rail. This is to say that there are other excellent models out there that are not Kohs or Key pricing but are greatly detailed and with some patience can be had for much more reasonable prices.

 

I also take exception to Bob's comment that 2 railers are not as concerned about the details as the three railers. The fact is that many are very detail conscious, but most 2 railers are not posting on the forum in the first place. Many just go about fixing the details as a matter of course and don't make a big deal about it. Or, when possible, they simply do as I do and contact the importer directly to make a case for correction. 

 

Yes, but you are moving with a crowd that purchases PSC and better brass rolling stock.  There are a lot of O Scalers who collect Athearn box cars, Lobaugh cattle cars, and doorstop sand cast locomotives.  The 3-rail Scale crowd would not be happy with these models.  I doubt that even the most skilled scratchbuilder could make the Lobaugh FEF come close to the Lionel version, and I bet the average 3-rail scale modeler would not consider the Lobaugh over the Lionel.

 

If the majority of O Scale hobbyists were purchasing high end brass, I think we would know it.

I'd say the crowd I move with actually buys a good mix of items and they don't have to buy all the brass, they just buy what is specific to their railroading needs. But of the 40 to 50 0 scalers I associate with or come in contact with, maybe 2 or 3 I can think of are building old car kits but their craft is exceptional.

 

Also, there is so much brass out there, it could be passed around for another generation. I would not use the current production rates of brass as a measure. All the nice brass that has been produced over time gets turned over and absorbed. Yoder is one who is successful and sells out by producing unique and needed items, though.

Considering the price of "high end" brass these days, I don't think that is even a REMOTE possibility. That said, there is more than enough stuff of excellent quality on the secondary market, that is more "in reach" of those on a budget, but the hobby is by no means inexpensive. I think the 3RS people will eventually be absorbed into 2 rail, because battery control systems will get so good that the 3rd rail is unnecessary. They will still be able to have their sharp turns (which to me has always been the issue), but without the third rail. Space is their issue, not the number of rails.

 

Simon

quote:

Going back through really old model railroad publications, you see so much more for 3 rail than 2 rail...

 

I like to read old Model Railroading publications. Its my impression that the models that were considered to be well detailed, scale models in the 1940's and 1950's are crude by comparison to today's offerings by any of the "O" gauge manufacturers / importers. The pieces I have seen in person support that impression.

....I think the 3RS people will eventually be absorbed into 2 rail, because battery control systems will get so good that the 3rd rail is unnecessary. They will still be able to have their sharp turns (which to me has always been the issue), but without the third rail. Space is their issue, not the number of rails.

That's about where I am now.  I tested the possibility of converting 3-rail track to 2-rail this morning by 1st pulling out the center rail of a siding track with some pliers and other tools, 2nd test was cutting thru the top of the center rail with my Dremel, 3rd test was to squeeze the center rail together and then pull it up.

 

The 1st test worked, but would take forever, the piece of track I tried it on was heavily ballasted and with all the glue was time consuming.

 

The 2nd test was too messy, don't want all that grit and metal on the layout to be picked up by anything.

 

3rd test seemed to work the best.  Once I squeezed the rail I could pull it straight up out of the ties (Gargraves track), the Ross track would be easier since it's spiked.

 

So far I have 2 battery-powered steam engines (no sound at this time).  I've removed the center rollers and now they remind me of what the old HO engines with their large flanges looked like back in the day.

 

All my rolling stock still has the fast-angled wheels, I've thought about converting them to 2-rail trucks/wheels but running them on the remaining 2 rails of the 3-rail track may present problems.  I could replace all the 3-rail track with 2-rail track, but that's going to cost about $1500, but may be worth it in the long run as then I could increase my mainline radius to 90" and inner radius to 72" and use #5 switches, it would be all Atlas 2-rail, I think the rail height will allow running of the large-flanged equipment.

 

If my large-flanged equipment will run on Atlas track, I could then convert all my rolling stock to 2-rail wheels and keep the steam engines as is with their 3-rail drivers.

Ease in to it.  Learn how to hand-lay track to save a few bucks, get some used rail, and if you can, hold off on the switches until you figure out what you want to do with your locomotive collection.  You might want to re-tire some of them.  Wheelsets are easy, as you know.  Drivers are the problem, but learning lathe skills is very satisfying.

I can only speak for myself and my own "path" on the topic. I got into model railroading at the age of 3. As a young boy I had both Lionel and HO layouts. I ran my Lionel on a plastic pre-formed layout base. My HO trains were run on a 4x8 that my father and I setup. As a kid I never really cared about the third rail, but I did like the realistic HO models too so I was split between the two. Fast forward to my teens and I built an HO layout in my bedroom and each year I would build a Christmas O gauge display layout.  I remained somewhat into model railroading, but mostly I was into RC airplanes and boats. One day my friend and I visited Trigg Marine in Boardman, Ohio and I saw the new Lionel scale hudson with RailSounds and puffing smoke and my jaw hit the floor... Shortly after that Lionel introduced TMCC and I was totally hooked. By the time I had my own place and some money at the end of the 90's I started acquiring the new scale sized highly detailed trains that Lionel was bringing out in response to MTH. I amassed quite a collection. When we moved into our first house I continued down the path of buying models with more and more detail. Essentially I went from toy trains, to Hirail, to 3RS until about 2010 or so. At that point I just could no longer put up with the compromises that even 3RS entails.

 

So essentially the great "scale race" in 3R lead me to 2R. I tried HO, N, and S along the way as well, but 2R O is where I am today (honestly due to the lack of S products). I'm currently building a 2R roster with hopes of starting on a new layout in the next few years.

Thanks Bob, good advice.

 

I've been pricing Atlas 2-rail track and will probably start getting a bit here and there while I'm converting my engines to battery power and running on 3-rail track.

 

I ran my BPRC 3-rail 2-8-0 on a piece of track Ed Rappe had and I didn't see the flanges riding on anything so I'm pretty sure I can run them on 2-rail track.

 

I think I'll get some steel pipe and some driver centers and give my mini-lathe a spin

If you are planning on keeping the 3 rail wheels then you will have problems when you get to turnouts. They won't go through any commercial turnouts except Gargraves or Ross 2 rail Hi-Rail turnouts. You could also lay your own, but you will have to adjust the flangeways to accommodate the 3 rail wheels. I thought about this at one point, but decided it was much easier to use wheels and track that conform to NMRA standards. That doesn't rule out 3 rail engines, you just have to convert them if you have the tools/skills or do what I do... send them to Joe Foehrkolb

I agree.  Cutting pipe on a "Mini-Lathe" of any description is not going to be fun at all.  You need at least a 6"Atlas, and I recommend no smaller than a 9" WWII vintage lathe.

 

You can cut the die cast or brass driver centers in a MiniLathe - maybe Joe would machine a set of tires for you.

 

Do try hand-laying a short section of track.

 

I saw part of your U Tube "J" movie - looks good.  Smooth.

O-scale is just so dang big, it is always going to be a much more limited market in the model railroad hobby. How many people have room for scale curves of 48"+ radius ?

Only those who are serious, and who make room.  But 48" radius is kinda tight for realistic operation of anything more than a switcher and some 40' cars.

Works fine for small steam and earlier diesels, 36 -40' cars.

 

I have yet to understand the fixation or compulsion to have large steam and diesels in order to be an O scale modeler.....

Sunset advertises their Pennsy L-1 and B&O P-7  at 48" minimum radius.  I'd be willing to bet that there are several pacifics and mikados that would work just fine. 

 

For freight cars, I suspect up to 60' would be good also. 

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT

I suspect there are a lot of people that can handle 48" curves, and greater, if they built around the walls instead of on multiples of 4x8 sheets of plywood.

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT

Some of the 3- railers are discovering that sweeping curves look more realistic than the corners most have been used to.

 

If you want anything bigger than an 0-6-0 to go around 48", you have to compromise somewhere.  The 3-rail scale folks compromise with missing tailbeams, undersize cylinders, missing flanges, and a ten foot gap for the fireman to jump over.  That is their choice, and as a 2-railer you get the same choice.  Just be aware that a Northern has to have compromises to get around 70" radius.  For 48", you get into the realm of tinplate realism, albeit lots of good detail above the running boards.

 

Opinion, sort of.

That is their choice

 

Bob, I honestly think that most 3-railers (and a lot of 3RS'ers) don't know what's missing, undersize, or in the wrong place.

 

Now if a manufacturer offered a "toy" train and a "scale" train and indicated the differences maybe more folks would pay attention.

 

I'm constantly seeing things that aren't what they should be.  I started turning a piece of 2" PVC round stock tonight to replace a MTH 2-8-0 boiler I modified to fit on a Weaver 4-6-0 chassis and noticed the valve linkage isn't correct for the prototype I want to model.  Also, some of the class of SAL 4-6-0 engines had inclined steam chests, other didn't, some had old style headlights, others had the more modern Sunbeam type.  So far I can't find one photo of a SAL Ten-Wheeler that has the same components/appliances that the Weaver chassis has.  I can live with it, try to fix it, or toss it in the parts box, I'm choosing to live with it at this point in time.

 

If anything, I think 2-rail has helped me throughout my 3-rail journey.

Well, I am in your cheering section.  I think you are doing good work - but best of all, your hobby is of value to you.

Has 3 rail hurt or helped 2 rail = Helped

Please watch this video, about the Detroit Model Railroad Club a Two Rail Layout

The video will tell the story about this topic...........

Two rail is ver expensive and a club can work together to bring about a 2/rail layout.

not only that but If you are into operations I think that the reliability of 3 rail can't be beat. 

Another myth...

And, another myth....

I wish we could come up with another idea besides 2 rail is expensive, seriously? Can you spend 5k 7k 10k?? Sure you can, thats not the going price of everything. The beauty of 2 rail to me there are several price points one can purchase locomotives. You can buy the top of the spectrum like key etc... And you will have a work of art, you can also buy like westside locomotives usually 900-1500, then you can buy stuff like mg or us hobbies and guess what that stuff runs great and you can get most any of them under 1k usually 600-800 is where most falls. So how is this more expensive?  The good thing about 2 rail it holds its value for the most part, its not like a rocketship down like the 3 rail stuff. Take your proto 1 locos, what 15 years old and i have seen some selling for 75 on the bay, ypu paid about 400 for a loco not its 75??? Proto 2 was about 1k, now some selling 300-400. Us hobbies were a few hundred in the 60's now they trade 3-4x on average and i saw a t&p loco a few weeks sell for 2700. Right now there is a prr j1 westside for 825, a sunset 3 rail a few days ago sold for 750. The westside has way more detail and a better gearbox, you couldnt buy the detail the ss is missing for 75, and again the westside is hovering around issue price while the ss seller lost about 400. So even though most of us buy these as a hobby and not investment, it sure is nice not to loose 90% of your investment if you decide to change railroads or upgrade something.

Agree with you mwb. All my 50 year old us hobbies stuff runs like well oiled machines, all you read on the forum is how the boards dont work, loco wont start, this dont work etc.. On the 3 rail stuff just a few years old. I wonder how reliable your"reliable" 3 rail will be in another 40 years, when my "unreliable" 2 rail will still be running.


       

So when you put your VL big boy on 031 track thats going to look fantastic?


       

I'd put the reliability of my railroad against any 3 rail layout. I've had an 0 scale 3 rail layout and now a 2 rail layout and both have run extremely well.

 

If you could do 60" radius curves, then you could do 2 rail with many of the larger engine types as well as smaller engines. I'm running N&W 2-6-6-4, 2-8-8-2, 2-6-6-2, 4-8-4, 4-8-2, 4-6-2, 4-8-0, and 0-8-0 engines on 56" radius. Some of these articulateds and even the 70" drivered Northern will negotiate 48" as well.

There are a lot of tricks that can be used to reduce the required curves in 2R for larger engines. It all depends on what you want. If you are coming from 3R and are happy with Lionel and MTH level detail and accuracy then there is no reason you can't run 2R in the same footprint as 3R. 

 

Example: I bought a slightly used K-Line NYC 4-6-4 Hudson for $200. I sent it to Joe F. at Baldwin Forge and Machine for a 2 rail conversion. I asked him to leave the center drivers blind as it is on the 3R model and put a long shank Kadee coupler on the tender. The result is a Hudson that will negotiate 27"r if I need it to. Is it equal to a Kohs Hudson? Of course not. But I don't need a Kohs Hudson to be happy. This is a really nice looking engine and all in I will have less than $1000 invested and it will have a QSI Titan XL DCC/Sound decoder, Lionel Fatboy speakers, and a Massoth fan driven smoke unit. It takes some time and effort, but it can be done in the same space and the same cost as 3R.

 

Another example would be to 2R convert Lionel's new 21" passenger cars with the telescoping couplers. They are designed to negotiate O-54 or 27"r. The number of rails you have doesn't matter. Now, will they look graceful on 27"r? Of course not, but it would be better than nothing wouldn't it?

The original question was has 3 rail hurt or helped 2 rail?

 

Perhaps those familiar with the offerings in the very high end of 2RS locomotives can give some perspective on the quantity and frequency of products being introduced by those manufacturers/importers.  That would be one relevant factor.

 

As for the products offered by 3rd Rail, Atlas, Weaver, and MTH, many of those locomotive offerings don't get made in 2 rail without the much larger volume of the same items offered in 3 rail.  In that respect, 2 rail benefits mightily from the 3 rail market.  Of course, those manufacturers'/importers' products often do not meet the requirements of a segment of the 2 rail market who choose not to buy them--fair enough.

 

 

 

 

 

From what I've heard about Sunset models specifically, the split is not as great as you might think between 2 rail and 3 rail for them. Without the 2 railers the product just would not be made so the benefit IS mutual. For a company who is completely rooted in 3 rail like MTH, certainly some 2 railers are benefitting, myself included.