Has anyone here used Powerwerx 'Zip Cord' ?

I used the OGR wire which I believe is no longer available. This is very similar to that wire and was recommended by another forum member here. I believe a few other forum members have also used it. Here's a link for #14, it also comes in #12, #16 & #18.

Monoprice Access Series 14AWG CL2 Rated 2-Conductor Speaker Wire

Just re-read your post, this might not be as good for 'bus' wire due to the outer jacket, but it is good for wiring your layout for MTH's DCS system.

I used some like RTR12 did for DCS.  It worked fine for me.  I bought some single conductor stiffer wire to finish the layout.  DCS signal is fine with either.

Thanks, rtr12 and Mark.  I will be running conventionally, at least for now.

I've looked at more wire in the last couple of days than I imagined was out there in The Universe Of Wire.  I confess that I missed the Monoprice site.  I will be running two sets of bus/feeders to power two completely independent loops.  The Monoprice offering, since there are two sheathe colors available (black and white) - each containing two leads (red and black) - might be a good option for me.

I'll look a bit further and then settle on something.  Turns out shopping for wire online is not very glamorous.

Peace,

Sam

WOW, talk about  overpriced!  I wired my 24 x 12 layout with #14 wire from Home Depot, and it was indeed pure copper wire.  When I bought it, it was less than $50 for a 500 foot spool.  It appears that this wire is about 2.5 times the price for now added value, I think I'd save a ton of money and drop into my local big box store.

I still find #14 THNN stranded copper for less than $55 for 500 feet, so I'd do a little shopping.

Like everyone said... tremendous ripoff.

You can use the CL2 wire posted above, or just use regular speaker wire.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2747

Like GRJ, I just ran my layout with plain ol' wire off 500 foot spools.

For 14 ga wire on 500 foot rolls I go to an electrical supply house.  It is better priced than the box stores and have a deeper stock and wider colors available.

@Tom Tee posted:

For 14 ga wire on 500 foot rolls I go to an electrical supply house.  It is better priced than the box stores and have a deeper stock and wider colors available.

What do you need all that wire for with battery power?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

WOW, talk about  overpriced!  I wired my 24 x 12 layout with #14 wire from Home Depot, and it was indeed pure copper wire.  When I bought it, it was less than $50 for a 500 foot spool.  It appears that this wire is about 2.5 times the price for now added value, I think I'd save a ton of money and drop into my local big box store.

I still find #14 THNN stranded copper for less than $55 for 500 feet, so I'd do a little shopping.

The cheapest copper wire like that (speaker wire) at Home Depot right now is $162

https://www.homedepot.com/p/RE...42boxwh500/300750641

John

Well, considering that's five times the amount of wire, it's still WAY cheaper than the stuff you're pointing to.  For 500 feet from Powerwerx, you'd pay $244.10.  I'm still of the same opinion, way overpriced!

I started this whole process at Home Depot; figured I would just drive over there and buy some wire.  Seemed simple enough.  Turns out, at least locally, they stock 200' spools of 14G copper wire and the cost is $33.72.  Several colors available.  No 18G wire on the shelves.  So I started looking online, since it wouldn't do me any good to have the 14G without the 18G.  I confess that I did not look at spools of anything in the 500' range - I have two loops of track and each is approximately 68' total length.

Yes, the Powerwerx stuff is more expensive than the HD stuff, but the difference is not orders of magnitude.

HD: $33.72 (red) + $33.72 (black) = $134.88/200' = $0.34/foot compared to Powerwerx: $112.02/250' (red & black) = $0.45/foot

In any case, I had already decided to not go with the Powerwerx wire before anyone replied to this thread - mainly because I want more than two colors in order to (try to) keep the buses straight.  So far I have not found anyone who is giving wire away.

Ha!  I didn't even look at the price when I opened the link, Sam!    No, I remember now.  I bought mine off a local Forum member.  When I was getting low, I bought a roll each of read and black from Home Depot.  How much wire do I really need for a 11x8 walk in layout?  If I was building big like Tom,  John, and others price would defiantly have been a deciding factor.

@CurlSnout posted:

So far I have not found anyone who is giving wire away.

Well, on that point, we can certainly agree!   Real copper wire isn't cheap anywhere.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

WOW, talk about  overpriced!  ... I still find #14 THNN stranded copper for less than $55 for 500 feet, so I'd do a little shopping.

John, I noticed you specifically mentioned THHN 600V electrical wire vs. low voltage speaker wire.  I had not previously seriously considered that option.  I've typically used something more akin to speaker wire for it's higher strand count and flexibility ( and I would tend to think slightly lower resistance (skin effect)).  What reasons do you prefer THHN (ie. cost, availability, etc)?

Skin effect at 60hz is a non-factor for this size wire.  At 60 Hz the skin depth where it takes effect is like 8.5mm, so you'd have to be using garden hose sized cables for it to be any factor!  Besides, non-insulated strands of wire don't act like Litz wire as far as skin effect, you're shorting all the wires together!  I wanted stranded and not solid, but the flexibility of the THNN wire was fine and posed no issues wiring my layout.  We've also used the #12 for our modular club, no problems there either.

@SteveH posted:

What reasons do you prefer THHN (ie. cost, availability, etc)?

Cost and availability was my criteria.   It was good copper wire and easy to work with.  I've also used it a lot for our modular club.

John, Thank you for the explanation about lack of skin-effect at 60Hz in 14 gauge wire and why you prefer THHN.  Maybe a little attenuation at 455kHz is a good thing.

Given the low currents of either DCS at 3.27mhz or TMCC/Legacy at 455khz, skin effect is of no significant consequence for either of those signals.

For a model railroad application (main bus + feeders), does UL1015 confer an advantage over UL1007?  My understanding, which may be imperfect, is that the primary differences have to do with voltage rating and physical diameter (due to insulation thickness).

Thanks.  Trying to learn.  Happy to be in the company of those with knowledge and experience.

Please forgive my poor attempt at humor.  I'm just so full of it, it slips out sometimes.

@CurlSnout posted:

For a model railroad application (main bus + feeders), does UL1015 confer an advantage over UL1007?  My understanding, which may be imperfect, is that the primary differences have to do with voltage rating and physical diameter (due to insulation thickness).

Thanks.  Trying to learn.  Happy to be in the company of those with knowledge and experience.

For model trains, I can't imagine any benefit of one over the other.  Truthfully, all I looked for is pure copper wire and not the CCA junk.  The rest was just window dressing.

John,  That wire was for all the layout wiring work I formerly did for others and myself.  The R/C battery engines have encouraged my laziness.  There are peninsulas that may never see juice in the rails.  There may even be cobwebs in the reels.

Interesting thread. Started out discussing copper wire and then shifted to the advantages of battery power.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the low currents of either DCS at 3.27mhz or TMCC/Legacy at 455khz, skin effect is of no significant consequence for either of those signals.

That clears up and explains a lot. When we built the club layout we were focused on voltage loss and current, so we used 12 gauge stranded for the mainline busses (conventional back in 1995 when we started). When we went command it worked well with TMCC. We figured out the DCS/Buss issue later and cut the track into blocks between feeds.

It seems to me that too many people use wire that is overkill in terms of thickness leading to shoehorning and connection issues particularly in small places.  The same thing happens in home audio with massive expensive cabling that has shown over the years not to make a difference in terms of sound.

Here is what Lionel says:

Wire comes in many sizes in solid and stranded varieties. Stranded wire is really a bundle of smaller diameter wires wound together. Wire size is indicated by a number – the larger the number, the smaller the wire. Most house wiring in No. 12, solid wire. For your layout, we recommend a No. 16 stranded bus wire with No. 18 feeders. The feeders do not have to be as large because they are not as long and it is easier to attach the smaller wire to the tracks. Stranded wire offers better electrical flow (electricity flows around a wire, not through it) and it is easier to bend. We recommend adding feeders at least every 10 to 20 feet around the track.

For lights and other low amp accessories, even smaller wire can be used on the feeders. Lighted accessories should use No. 20 or 22 wire.Phone cable works very well for switch motors. It is color coded, easily available and cheap!

John

By color-code convention, Red/Black wire is primarily used for conveyance of DC voltage/power. This Powerwerx wire is typically used by ham radio operators to connect their 100 watt transceivers to 12 volt DC power supplies where high currents are prevalent. The wire is also used by Powerwerx for their automobile cigarette lighter cords.

@Craftech posted:

Here is what Lionel says:

For your layout, we recommend a No. 16 stranded bus wire with No. 18 feeders. The feeders do not have to be as large because they are not as long and it is easier to attach the smaller wire to the tracks. Stranded wire offers better electrical flow (electricity flows around a wire, not through it) and it is easier to bend. We recommend adding feeders at least every 10 to 20 feet around the track.

I'd be able to put more credence in Lionel's statements if they knew what they were talking about. They bought into the "skin effect" myth without even cracking a book! Skin effect at 60hz is not a factor until the conductors get larger than 1/2" in diameter.  In addition, there is no significant difference between stranded wire and solid wire regarding skin effect as the conductors are in contact with each other.  If you're really concerned about skin effect for stranded wire, you need to use Litz wire.

I personally used #14 for my main feeds and #18 for the track drops.  I used CAT5 Ethernet cable for all my switch runs as well as the remote controlled relay panels for my sidings.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd be able to put more credence in Lionel's statements if they knew what they were talking about. They bought into the "skin effect" myth without even cracking a book! Skin effect at 60hz is not a factor until the conductors get larger than 1/2" in diameter.  In addition, there is no significant difference between stranded wire and solid wire regarding skin effect as the conductors are in contact with each other.  If you're really concerned about skin effect for stranded wire, you need to use Litz wire.

I personally used #14 for my main feeds and #18 for the track drops.  I used CAT5 Ethernet cable for all my switch runs as well as the remote controlled relay panels for my sidings.

I guess I could have left off the part about stranded wire vs solid (I use a lot of solid wire myself, but I don't have a big layout).  The point was about any real difference of any consequence with really thick wire and most layouts. 

John

Yep, that's just a pet peeve of mine, I'm constantly barraged with people telling me that stranded wire is better for power because of skin effect.

I'm sure I could have done with #16 for the main power runs, but when I did my calculations of maximum loads and voltage drops, it made sense for the small difference in price to step up a notch in wire size.  I had a 4 x 12 layout years ago wired with #22, everythign ran fine.