Help! I can't slow em down

Are you set to CAB 1 or TMCC control?

What momentum level are you using?

When you say one notch do you mean one speed step?

Hi Marty, it says CAB 1. By notch I mean one notch in the knob. Momentum level? No idea. I'm not with the controller at the moment. Is that a setting in the SCROLL thing?

What should the momentum be set at? (Assuming I can find it).

The 3 buttons, L-M-H set the momentum.  Holding down the M and turning the red dial will vary it.  But based on the one notch comment, that should not be an issue.  Cab1 should be ok.

Do these engines have Odyssey? 

One of them is a Lionel EP5 with the single Pullmor, it may have, how can I tell?

The other is a Kline Mikado Jr. so I guess it wouldn't.

Pullmors do not have any type of speed control.  They can be very hard to find the sweet spot to get going smoothly.  Setting the stall speed may help that.  The manual should give you that procedure.

The K Line I'm not sure about.  One speed step, shows a 1 above the ENG button, should not give you the results you are experiencing though.  Usually the Pullmor will sit and growl until you reach a point that the motor is supplied with enough voltage from the TMCC electronics.

The cruise units, if the speed control is malfunctioning could react the way you are describing much like a PS with a faulty tach tape.

Thanks Marty, I'll see how I go. I think I need buy a Legacy loco to be sure of what is happening. Oh well any excuse to buy a loco.

I have to believe something is amiss here, the description sounds like they're dropping into conventional mode for some reason.  I've seen this with flaky boards, but it's hard to believe both are flaky.

Can you describe your setup?

Marty, this is on the test bench with rollers. I only have the Legacy base and a Z1000

controller and brick connected.

John, yes, I cant believe both locos are faulty either. They are quite new and only very lightly used. Other functions, such as bell, horn, brake boost etc work, when programming the headlight flashes as it should, so I have no idea. They start up and shut down, it's just the speed thing.

Well, I'd lose the Z1000 controller and just use the brick for TMCC/Legacy.  I doubt this is the problem in this case, but the Z1000 controller brings nothing to the party.

At this point, I'd suggest taking one or both of the engines to another layout and making sure they work properly.  If you know someone that will allow it, take the Legacy as well and test that.

I'm searching my old memory, because I had a TMCC locomotive that did the same thing, one notch on the throttle and it took off like a rocket.  I know it was a locomotive issue, but I can't remember what fixed it.  I believe it ended up being something about dropping into conventional mode as I mentioned previously.

Have you tried laying a ground wire next to the test track with the rollers to make sure this isn't a signal issue?

I got a TPC400 today, I'll hook that up instead of the Z1000. As I said previously, all other functions seem OK. The Legacy base is 6" from the loco, it can't be signal strength. I'm at a loss, I will see if I can program another member's loco. Apart from my Legacy, I just got one for another member, and don't know anyone else who has it. We have been mainly DCS at our club.

Dave, have you tried setting the locomotives as TMCC instead of CAB1 on the remote?  I've found that this makes quite a big difference in speed steps and controllability.

The TPC400 isn't a power supply.  You can use the Z1000 brick without the controller to power the track directly.  That's all the Lionel PowerHouse bricks are, a transformer and a circuit breaker.

Dave even though the Legacy base is 6 inches from the locomotive on the track that is only half of the signal. The other half comes from the ground wire in your house. It is distributed through it from the ground wire in the plug of the command base power brick.

Ron

That's why I suggested the ground wire earlier, that may be part of the issue. 

It's interesting that the other functions all work fine. 

It is odd, that's for sure.  The fact that two locomotives do the same thing is what is confusing.  That's why I'd probably test in another location.  In my case, I'd pull out the old CAB1 and command base and test them.

Dave, What power are you using? Earth ground is very important for the Legacy base wall wart. So any transformer or Inverter etc. must have earth continuety to your house earth.

As this is happening with with 2 older TMCC locos my guess is you could be having

50Hz issues. I have an Lionel Missile launch engine which does just what you describe

on 50Hz with TMCC. However 50Hz using Legacy it appears to operate correctly but I don't trust it! 

Regards

Nick

I run Legacy on 50Hz, and I don't have any problems with TMCC locomotives, although I do know that some older TMCC circuits don't like 50Hz very much. But in general, they tend to go all wonky on the sound more than anything else.

If the signal isn't getting through, then I doubt if Dave would have been able to code the locomotives, or access the other functions as he stated that he can.

I may be wrong, but my bet is still on an inappropriate menu choice when configuring the locomotives on the remote. There are a lot of locomotive/device type options, and picking the wrong one can have quite dramatic results. I have found that picking 'CAB-1' for TMCC locomotives gives dramatic acceleration in some cases, whereas selecting 'TMCC' gives you more control and much smoother operation.

Dave, I would suggest that you go through all of the options selected for your locomotives, and check that each is appropriate. (Via the 'info' button.)

Nicole, I've used CAB1 emulation on many TMCC locomotives, and I've never seen it affect the speed adversely, I'm wondering why the difference between our experience.  The only time I've seen one take off as soon as it got any command was when the locomotive had a problem, that's what is confusing here.

It's times like this I test each element individually to narrow down the issue.

Hi John, it could be a 50Hz oddity, but I just went and tested my theory with my Trackmobile.  Set as CAB1 it has much more immediate acceleration at a lower speed step than with it set as TMCC. (I'm using Legacy 1.4 on 50Hz.) Set as TMCC it requires much more wheel movement, and has a lot more exact control.

One big advantage of setting as TMCC is that you get the speed bar back. I also found that if I set it as having RS sound, then I get the icons too, and can use '+' and '-' to turn the strobes on and off, instead of Alt1, 9 and Alt1, 8. No sounds of course, but the icons are handy.

Hopefully Dave will report back with his settings, wiring and other insights to help us all try and diagnose this further. 

The CAB1 has a finer resolution, that is true.  However, one notch doesn't put out full throttle.  You'll notice that for TMCC mode with Legacy that you have to turn a few clicks to get any speed change.  Using CAB1 emulation, each detent is a TMCC step, so it appears to accelerate much faster.

This doesn't explain full throttle when you first touch the knob.

Hi Nick, I am using the power supply that came with the Legacy system, it's plugged into an earthed stepdown transformer, I was very conscious of Lionel's requirement in this regard. In regard to 50hz, the specify that it is OK, I don't doubt them on that. Since all the issues that arose some years back with the old CW80 transformers, I'm sure Lionel's designers are aware now.

Hi Nicole, I will try that, thanks.

John, I'm going to try the old cab1. I'll see what happens.

I'm going to try all your suggestions, thanks. I was at my train club yesterday, it's early Sunday morning now, I'll get to my workshop later and test all these ideas, thanks to all for the tips.

Nicole, very interesting what you have said here, I just got a new Trackmobile, so I'll test it today, it's the only other TMCC loco I have at the moment. I also have 1.4 on 50 hz so you and I can do exactly the same tests. I will indeed get back to here when I have something to report.

Hi Nicole, well I am very pleased to report, I tried my new Trackmobile and it worked perfectly, thank goodness! At least it proves the system works. What aneat little unit the Trackmobile is too.

Hi Dave,

I'm so pleased to hear that your Trackmobile works as expected. At least that rules out a major problem with your system. (I fully agree with you about the Trackmobile. They are brilliant little units, and so much fun to operate.)

So now we have to solve the problems with your other locomotives.

The only EP-5 manual I can find is for one with TMCC, RS-5 and Odyssey.(From 2006) There aren't any 50Hz warnings in the manual that I found, so hopefully that shouldn't be a factor here. (No promises though.)

One thought that does come to mind is the minimum speed setting. Could this have been set before at a very high value?  It might be worth clearing that, or even performing a full reset on the locomotive. (I've attached the instructions for both a full reset, and the minimum speed setting  from the EP-5 manual in case this helps.)

I couldn't find anything for the K-Line locomotive, but I'm sure that others may be able to help there if needed.

Good luck, and please let me know if there are any tests you want me to do from here if it will help.

Thanks Nicole, that's very kind of you, I don't have the manuals for either loco, so, I will try the EP5 tomorrow. Yes, I'm really pleased with the trackmobile, a very nice little unit. And, I must say, the ease of use of the Lionel system is better than the MTH  one.

I believe the 50Hz issue was only resolved by Lionel about three years ago, so if your engine is 2006 it will explain why you are having problems.

My Flyer 'S' BB must be three years old now and I believe this was the first 'S' gauge engine that was fine to run over here. Another Flyer operator over here has an early Mikado with TMCC and this also has some problems running on 50Hz but not enough to worry about. I seem to remember there is a time frame where the 50Hz issue was more problematic than other years but can't remember when it was.

The only option you have is to do what Nick who posted something earlier did, which was to create a system where you buy a US made 12V/110V inverter, use a good amperage 12V input to supply it and then run the US mains transformers from it. The inverter will give you the 60Hz output.

I'll let Nick go into the detail of it if he picks this message up

Regards,

Neil

Hi Neil, that is the probable explanation. I was aware of the 50 hz issue with CW80's but didn't know they had issues in other products including TMCC. I won't be buying an inverter just to run these locos in command, I'll just continue using them in conventional. I have a TPC 400 so I can use it in variable mode.

Nicole, I tried to do, as per your instructions, but it didn't work, if Lionel had a 60-50hz issue in TMCC, that is the most likely answer, but, I'm still at a loss why some features do work, very odd.

Did you try the CAB1?  If so, how did that work?

Hi Dave, sorry that I wasn't of much help.  If your EP-5 is the same as the 2006 one I described earlier, you could try switching off the Odyssey and see if that helps. (Or, if it is already switched off, then try switching it back on.)

I too would be interested to hear if it runs under your old CAB-1/TMCC system too. If it does, then that makes it even stranger.

Any Pulmore motored unit, such as his EP-5, doesn't have Odyssey.

In the main I would agree with you, but when I was looking for TMCC EP-5 manuals, I found this one, which does.  http://www.lionel.com/media/se...ents/73-1753-250.pdf  It was the only TMCC EP-5 from the right time period that I could find too.

I don't see any mention of Odyssey in that manual.  Don't count the references in the definition of terms, since that's boiler-plate that appears in every manual.  The fact that it has the Pulmore motor tells me that for sure it does not have Odyssey.  Lionel does not now, or ever in the past, supported cruise control with the open-frame AC motor.

Also, that's one from 2006 with RailSounds 5, though it still doesn't have cruise control.

I thought that it might have Odyssey, as it's one of the features highlighted on the cover page. Even though it's not mentioned elsewhere. It was also the most recent TMCC EP-5 manual that I could find, and Dave did mention that it was fairly new. I was only trying to help.