Help Request smoke unit northern 4-8-4

Nope your not going crazy, I have had the same issues with other recent legacy locomotives. Found out the root cause is the gasket is misaligned with the smoke impeller (fan) causing the fan motor to draw to many amps/volts, the board reads this and then sends the bulb flashing error.  Trim the gasket back or check to make sure the fan is not hitting it and is properly aligned around the hole. The gasket expands when smoke fluid is added and the issue disappears when the gasket dries out... so its best to check it after the gasket is saturated with smoke fluid... its the nature of the beast with the material the gasket is made out of. Lionel should probably have used a molded EPDM seal.

 

I had one that was doing this, I trimmed all the gasket that could impinge on the smoke unit impeller, no more problem.  Part of the issue is there's too much gasket, apparently in an effort to make it less fragile.  Trouble is, it makes it less reliable.

 

I have the 3759same engine.it had a bad smoke unit motor ..The funny thing is the motor works when you test it ..it just stops working from time to time ..After the third time taking it apart I just changed it out..This engine is so easy to take apart .. This engine has the tube and doesn't have a gasket. http://www.lionel.com/Customer...db-a07d-67e7752119e8

 

On a side note mega steam is great..The only issue is 10 drops is not enough I put a lot more in ..

Actually the gasket is between Item 6 and 11 on the attached link, for some reason not shown on the part sheet? It is the gasket between the board and reservoir. Its is the one impeding the propeller from turning.

How is that gasket gonna do that?it  just seals it to the board . The hose is where the motor blows in to the bowl..

got ya, like I say they legacy smoke unit I was referring to has a wall in the reservoir where the motor mounts behind it and the fan, housing, board, and gasket all interface.

i.e. FEF, S-3, K-4, cc-2, 2-10-10-2, challenger, Atlantic, etc

 

seems to be a new set up?

Like this one...

 

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/ReplacementParts/index.cfm?doAction=productPartFilter&number=630-8472-200&productID=dbe2a596-0918-4039-be43-4e94c5f46551

It's the same one that they put in the u30 and ac6000. It's funny the new daylight has the same smoke unit your talking about and there both the same style engine ..

Thank you all very much for the information. I appreciate it.

I never had a engine apart, i will drop it off for repair and give them instructions about the gasket needing trimmed.

 

Bob

I had the same problem with one of these style smoke units on my legacy k4, fan was noisey out of the box, oil improved it for a few months then it quit altogether.

 

There was night and day difference in vibration between the old and new motor. The old one seemed as though the shaft was doing a bit of an orbital motion within the bushing as it ran vibration and making a ton of noise, and numbed my fingertips as I tested it.

 

The new one was prctically silent and vibration free IMO some of the motors were manufactured wrong.

 

Secondly, ( I think this may be Bobs problem) placement of the fan impeller on the shaft is crucial for correct/reliable operation. It has to be a MM or so away from the base of the motor shaft where it meets motor end cover.

 

When I initially replaced the motor it stopped working because it rubbed the back of the fan impeller housing.

 

I pulled it back apart, and pulled the fan impeller away from the motor with my fingernail and tested it with an index card all the way around for even spacing from the motor, too far out and it will rub the outer part of the housing.

 

Its easy to tweak the impellar shaft and make it wobble making it inclined to rub the housing as well.

 

These new "undershell mounted" smoke units are a bit more tedious to work on than the old "chassis mounted" type, but with a little patience it can be done.

Thanks for clarifying Rick. Can see the impeller, housing and motor have to talk to each other properly in this design. Can see how the fan and housing can rub if not properly aligned due to a worn or oblong bushing in the motor.

 

Thanks Rick for your very detailed answer.

Since Lionel replaced the smoke unit and fan, same replacement of parts at LHS both times the smoke unit lasted very little time. I am at a loss where to have the service done that would follow your instructions. I believe I will print your instructions and give to the repair shop.

Bob

I am sure Lionel is aware of the issues with their smoke units. Half of my lionel smoke units have failed. Lionel should get a reliable unit and replace them all at no charge.

Lionel did have motor problems .. They just switched motors company's from what I heard to fix this issue(Marty said they went to mabuchi).The last 2 I got where different . To be honest I rather change a motor out its 7 bucks .. Not the end of the world.. I had over 30 legacy engines and had 3 motor failures my 4-8-4 3759 my up u30 and one in my 5344 Hudson ..  If you guys want I will make a video on changing these there easy..

When it did run, was the fan fairly quiet? Usually they're noisy when theres a problem like I mentioned.

 

I suppose its "possible" that the replacement motors could have been defective too. Theres no question Lionel had a bunch of bad fan motors when several folks on the forum started complaining of the same problem. No way to know for sure until they are all used up.

 

I'm certainly no expert but I'm guessing theres a component that senses the voltage draw of the motor and shuts it down and sends he blinking cab code. If your fan motors have been running quiet, maybe its this "component" that may be defective or overly sensative.

 

It might be worth dropping Lionel, or even Mike Reagan himself an email  telling them what you have posted above. You seem to be very patient  regarding this and maybe Lionel would be willing to do more for you to resolve this issue.

 

 

Thanks again Rick for your help. I will do as you suggest, hopefully it will finally be resolved. I will certainly post results when I get it fixed.

 

Thank you all who had input to this issue.

 

Bob 

Rick, I just realized I did not answer your question about the noise in the fan.

The fan did not make any noise. I could just about hear it when I was close to it.

 

Bob

I promised I would report the repair finding when I received the Northern back from Lionel.

Today I Received it, Lionel said the problem was a wire pinched on the fan motor and replaced the fan motor. Test ran with no problems.

I just got home from work, quickly unpacked the Northern with great expectations.

Placed it on the track, re-programmed it to my controller. Started the Northern, with the greatest disappointment known to man I watched the three light blink sequence in the cab!!! Shut down engine, shut off track power, restarting did not work. Tried reset twice, no go. My warranty ends in December, since I purchased the Northern I now had the smoke unit repaired three times. I really like this engine I just don't know what to do at this point. I would never consider running a steam engine without smoke! Why should I have to pay shipping back to Lionel? Is there a lemon law for Lionel trains?? I feel at this point I should receive a replacement.

If anyone can give me advice as what to do about getting this engine fixed I will appreciate it.

You don't. 

Tell Lionel this is a multiple return and they will send a UPS label by email.  Have done it many times.  (not this engine but another one).  If they say no contact Mike Reagan. 

I had the same issiue with mine the motor is bad I guarantee it.. It would work then it won't after the third time I replaced the motor it was fixed ..

If you decide not to send it back, I can replace the fan motor for you, I have some new MTH motors, they are the same fit, and didn't seem to have the issues that the Lionel ones have had recently.

 

Do you have the part number for mth motors.. It's like pulling teeth to figure out the parts on there website. 

The smoke fan motor is BE-0000041, I believe they're around $6.

I was going to recommend the same thing as John did. However the newer Lionel smoke unit motors have the mounting holes at an angle, where as MTH motors have the mounting holes parallel to the motor. If there is room for the motor to be at an angle, no problem. The MTH version of the motor seems to be more reliable than one Lionel uses.

Thanks for all the help and responses.

John, thanks for your offer. I would much rather have you replace the motor as you suggest. I will send you a e-mail.

 

Bob

I put a mth one in mine even though it had the angled motor. I ran out of mth motors that is why I want more.

Chuck, Lionel uses both versions as I understand.  I have found applications where the shorted Lionel fan is a better choice, especially in non MTH engine upgrades where smoke is added.

The MTH motor is longer than the new Lionel fans, so that can be a concern in some applications too.  G

Hi G,

 I know Lionel also uses the same parallel screw hole motor, but Lionel hasn't had these in stock for months.

In this particular locomotive, is there room for the MTH motor?  So far, I haven't seen any that it wouldn't fit into, but there are plenty I haven't seen.

 

Lionel is supposed to have new motors now that have solved the problem with the older ones.  I wonder if they have newer ones for the diagonal mount models?

 

The Lionel 6-11332 A.T.S.F. # 3751 4-8-4 does use the diagonal mount motor, so there is some question as to the fit of the MTH motor.  From looking at the pictures, the shaft of the Lionel motor is also longer.

 

I think this may be a place that you have to use the Lionel motor.  The longer shaft seems problematic, even if the longer motor would fit.

 

 

 Lionel Fan Motor

 

 

MTH Fan motor

 

Yes, I see your point. Scratch the MTH motor replacement.

Bummer, the only choice is to use the motor that has already been replaced again!

 

Chuck I believe they are in stock.  Lionel shifted to the newer smaller height motors and I think have done away with the MTH like longer motors.  Try these part numbers.  I don't think shaft height is an issue.  Impellers are tall.  Plus you could easily cut it with out damaging the motor. G

 

610-1154-130 Fan Motor Diagonal

610-1154-218 Fan Motor Diagonal Gasket

610-8057-240 Fan Motor Horizontal

610-1300-218 Fan Motor Horizontal Gasket

The mth motor is longer but it fits you have like 1/8 of a inch before it touches the side of the shell. The mount on the smoke unit has other hole to use a straight mount motor . I have done this. I will take the shell off mine and post Picts later.

Thank you for all of your responses.

The motor Lionel installed is 610-1154-130 Fan Motor Diagonal.

 

Bob

What about the longer shaft of the Lionel Motor?  Is the shaft on the MTH motor long enough to engage the impeller properly?  That, and of course the size, are the chief concerns.

 

Yes it is cause the fan goes almost to the motor .The motor mount is a flat piece of plastic that is even with the front bushing of the motor . I will pull it out when I get home . I need to take it apart anyways .I havnt gave up on my smoking whistle on my daylight yet and I need to open it up to see something on the main board.

A couple of pictures would be greatly appreciated.  If the motor will fit, I'll put one in for Bob, maybe that will last longer than the Lionel ones have.

 

Placement of the impeller on the shaft is crucial. Its possible that the impeller is too far down or too far out and rubbing the seperate fan housing. Its also easy to "tweak" the motor shaft and cause the impeller to rub as well.

 

When I replaced the bad motor in my k4 I had to re-adjust the impellar after I installed it because it was rubbing the housing, it has to be just right.

 

It makes one appreciate the old smoke units with the vertical motors.

Interesting point Rick.

Maybe it was misaligned during shipment from Lionel back to me?

Lionel test ran it, I unpacked it tested it and immediately had the three blink code.

 

Bob 

Bob it's possible but my history with my engine was just like yours .. It was the motor in the end .. I gonna take some pictures of mine with the mth motor in it after that i am so happy with it. .