Help Request smoke unit northern 4-8-4

It does amaze me that one little part can be such a major PITA!  I have a pair of Legacy U-boats that I think I'll be replacing the motors in, they are noticeably louder than other engines, so I figure it's only a matter of time...

 

We look forward to the pictures, Bob probably more than me.

 

 

I took 3 pictures .One in the shell to show how close it is to the shell .. It is like 1/8 of a inch. I did put a piece of tape on the shell to protect it.. The other 2 to show the motor on the smoke unit and  of the fan on it.. Looking at the fan it is  about 95% on the shaft.  This steamer is so easy to open up the 2 screws on the corner of the cab on the bottom and the screw under the front dummy wheels and its open..

 

Gun yea the u30 was stupid loud. It  has the same smoke unit in it.. .. With a mth motor in it and a little tweeking i cant hear it at all anymore...

Jojofry: thank you for taking the photos and your imput.

 

Hopefully John will have the info he needs to see if the MTH motor will work.

 

When the Northern was smoking it really looked great.

 

bob

Yea it really is a nice engine .. I love mine it is a shame of the issiue.. I am just tring to help anyone out cause gun and marty have helped me so much...

As long as the shorter shaft isn't an issue, it looks like the motor fits.  I'd probably insulate those connections to make sure they don't short to the frame, but it appears to be a go on a repair.

 

John that will be awesome for you to fit the MTH unit in the Northern.

please email me when you would want the engine.

 

bob

Thank you Gunrunner John!

My Northern smoke unit is now working perfect.

John found that the connecting plug that plugs the smoke unit into the circuit board was not making contact. John applied a contact cleaner and rejuvenator to the contacts that fixed the smoke unit.

Bob 

That's what I call a happy ending - kudos to John.

 

It was great meeting Bob in person, and I'm glad we were able to solve his issue.  The plug in question doesn't have much grip either, so the next step if it acts up is to get a new cable.  The smoke motor tested out perfectly.  I even have an extra MTH motor that I intended to use.  I'm sure it'll get used soon.

I too have a lionel a.t.s.f #3759 and have the same problem. repaired by lionel and is working for now. the thing is I have 16  legacy engines 6 steamers and 10 diesels.they range from 3 weeks old to 1 1/2yrs old .my 3 week old sd80 mac has stopped smoking 3 blinks same routine. the point is of these 16 engines 7 had to be repaired by lionel 2 of them multiple times very frustrating seems like I live at ups! I have a vision line Hudson down to a s3 alco. these units are not cheap.lionel should improve the smoke units. got to the point that I am starting to purchase MTH engines. any how glad to read I am not alone and that this forum gives some insight on how to repair units on my own. I was able to switch the fan motor on my Canadian National dash 9 by reading the help from this forum. as I learn more I will be able to share my repairs in the future.

Given my very recent experience with this locomotive, I'd closely check the cable that connects the smoke unit to the control board.  When I opened up and tested the motor, it worked just fine.  Turned out to be a poor connection with the 4-pin cable on the PCB end. 

I know a lot of people don't like to work on this stuff but it really isn't hard..Even if you just like to run old stuff you have to work on it to.. If you run trains you should try to work on them cause there gonna break no Mather what brand ..

I am trying to locate this item lionel fan motor #610-1154-130. went to lionel parts and they state not available.any info on these fan motors appreciated ,anthony

FWIW, I've put MTH fan motors in three of this exact model in the last few months, none have had any issues.  Lionel is supposed to have newer and better motors, but there's some confusion about availability.

 

Just want to report that my Northern that Gunrunner repaired remains my best smoking locomotive.

train doctor shows it in stock.

 

610-1154-130

 

 

trying to locate this fan motor 610-1154-130 train doctor emailed me stating that they do not have this part. lionel S-3 northern. any assist appreciated

As I said previously, I've put MTH motors in these engines with no issues.  MTH motors are readily available, so if you can't find that motor, consider the alternative.

I just replace the actual fan motor, the rest of the smoke unit works fine.  The motor is MTH part BE-0000041 and the list price is $6.

Thanks, would we just send you the smoke units(s) then?

If it has a different smoke unit, is there space for the motor?  The only issue is usually the MTH motor is about 1/8" longer than the Lionel one used in those.  In the 3751 it had a pretty tight fit to the side, but enough space.  I also put some Kapton tape on the boiler shell and insulation on the motor connections, just to make sure.

 

How about a picture of the smoke unit in the shell?

 

Odd enough, it's only been the main smoke motors that have been an issue, so far no whistle smoke motors have been a problem.

 

Gun thats a good point the hose that does the steam chest is under the smoke unit...I have to take my apart again.. to look.. I didnt have smoke motor problems with mine the resistors were junk on mine..

 

The northern had the smoke motor horizontal under the hose for the exhaust from the fan.

Yea this one the motors are old style virdical . I guess I will take mine apart and post Picts like I did of the 3759 .

Photos would be great along with any tips on how you improved the smoke output on your S3. I also heard getting the shell off on the S3 can be challenging too - any tips there?  Thank you!

       
       
         




Yea the shell is hard to get off it is just 4 screws but Lionel put some kind of patch underneath the cab under the shell that makes it real tuff to take apart . Lionel also has had problems with tighten up the screws that hold the resistors on .I changed mine and tighten them up . Another issue is the steam chest (blowdown) they have the hose pinched so bad it wouldn't work.

Ok i got pictures up on the s3 . Gunrunner there should be no problem with putting mth motors on it.. The other pictures are where the screws are to remove the shell theres only 4 screws ... Then theres pictures of the bottom of the cab where lionel put something that makes the chassis hit the cab when you try and remove it...

From the pictures just posted, it would just be one smoke unit.  I'd probably replace both motors if we're going to the trouble of taking it out.  Given that it's a dumb smoke unit, I can also do a pretty good bench test on it.  If it need repacking, I can do that as well.

 

jojofry, That's an interesting smoke unit, one bowl and two fans?  I hadn't seen that one before, see something new every day!   The whistle smoke units I've worked on all have a separate smoke unit.

 

I guess that one needs two motors.

 

I just repaired a Lion Master Legacy Big boy smoke unit.  Same type unit except it is a funnel (more like duct work) the sits over the second stack for whistle smoke.

 

The wick runs under the divider so that when you fill the main stack with fluid the whistle side gets fluid too.  Has two elements, one for main stack and one for whistle.  G

Yea it's one bowl with a divider in it. The divider does not go to the bottom the batting does. The vision line challenger and the Santa Fe 2-10-10-2 and the s3 share the same smoke unit. 

Thanks for posting the photos! Is it correct that you have to remove the engineer figure first to get the S3 shell off? I plan to work on my S3 soon and want to be prepared. Thanks for the tips!

No you don't have to after you remove the four screw look to see if it's hitting the sides of the cab if it isn't it will remove .. If it's rubbing you will see some putty of some sort just remove alittle of it Till the bottom clears the cab .I know this sounds wired but in my picture look under the door you see where is not black anymore .. There no need to worry you can't see it the frame covers it..Maybe mine just had more them most on it .

I like the idea of one fill for both sides, convenient.

 

this is for the folks that posted fixes for the lionel S-3 Northern smoke unit repairs. thanks for the information about MTH fan unit motors and the pictures on how to make repairs. I just put my unit back together and it operates great. good smoking unit both stack and steamchest.ciao,anthony

It's somewhat tight, but it fits.  It'll be nice when we can get the shorter motors again, but as long as it fits into the boiler...