Help Troubleshooting Lionmaster Challenger Speed Slows / Sounds Speeds Up

That absolutely 100% is a big deal and plenty enough to cause your issue.

Worse- that implies the motor might have excessive endplay in armature, and you might need to replace BOTH the motor and the encoder.

Again re-watching the video, what did the encoder ring rub against? Something external or the optical sensor gap on the sensing PCB?

The optical sensor is a very small fine beam of light and that melted low edge most definitely 100% would interfere with pulse counts and thus smooth speed control operation.

Worse, Lionel parts is not showing some of these key components being available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...Greyhound-6802695001

I'm not sure what size ring that is and what might cross reference for that sensor

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...%20RING%20%20OPTICAL

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again re-watching the video, what did the encoder ring rub against? Something external or the optical sensor gap on the sensing PCB?

The optical sensor is a very small fine beam of light and that melted low edge most definitely 100% would interfere with pulse counts and thus smooth speed control operation.

Worse, Lionel parts is not showing some of these key components being available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...Greyhound-6802695001

I'm not sure what size ring that is and what might cross reference for that sensor

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...%20RING%20%20OPTICAL

Thanks for confirming that I've found the issue.  I had the same problem, I have searched and searched on the Lionel site and the parts I need per the Greyhound diagram you linked above are not in stock.

I'm hoping someone might have an idea of a suitable replacement????

I might also reach out to Lionel and see if they can recommend anything.

Well, you’ve got nothing to lose now, it seems the damage is done, …..my first step would be to carefully….and I do mean carefully, clean off that ground up plastic on the cage ( encoder wheel ) . Then, see if you can adjust the flywheel height to find a happy medium where it might work,…..as Vernon points out, it may be too late for the motor, but again, what do you have to lose at this point!?…IIRC, there’s two set screws on that flywheel, they have to be done in unison, to take out any wobble. The slightest amount of wobble can cause the cage to crash into the sensor,……I’d suggest removing the motor from the locomotive to attempt an adjustment,….find the where the motor shaft bottoms out the furthest with the flywheel loose and moved out of the way, then lower the flywheel while the shaft is at its furthest bottoming point, until it just clears the sensor,….lock down the flywheel, and then push up on the gear to see how far the cage travels away from the sensor, …..if the tone rings ( windows ) are still in the sensor’s path, you should be ok,…..I’d start by carefully peeling away that galled up plastic,..and trimming it clean at the base of the tone ring,…..just stay away from the veins,…..they’re oober fragile …..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Well, you’ve got nothing to lose now, it seems the damage is done, …..my first step would be to carefully….and I do mean carefully, clean off that ground up plastic on the cage ( encoder wheel ) . Then, see if you can adjust the flywheel height to find a happy medium where it might work,…..as Vernon points out, it may be too late for the motor, but again, what do you have to lose at this point!?…IIRC, there’s two set screws on that flywheel, they have to be done in unison, to take out any wobble. The slightest amount of wobble can cause the cage to crash into the sensor,……I’d suggest removing the motor from the locomotive to attempt an adjustment,….find the where the motor shaft bottoms out the furthest with the flywheel loose and moved out of the way, then lower the flywheel while the shaft is at its furthest bottoming point, until it just clears the sensor,….lock down the flywheel, and then push up on the gear to see how far the cage travels away from the sensor, …..if the tone rings ( windows ) are still in the sensor’s path, you should be ok,…..I’d start by carefully peeling away that galled up plastic,..and trimming it clean at the base of the tone ring,…..just stay away from the veins,…..they’re oober fragile …..

Pat

You read my mind, after searching the internet for this engine replacement I was just wondering if I could clean up that ring.

Another question, could I buy a similar engine from Lionel (one in stock) then take the flywheel off and use that on my engine instead?

OK so to add to what I just asked above - could I buy a similar engine from Lionel (one in stock) then take the flywheel off and use that on my engine instead?

This is the part I need that is out of stock:

DC MOTOR / LIONDRIVE W/ FLYWHEEL W/ SENSOR / LEG - 6802695101

Could I buy the below engine, take that flywheel and attach it to the engine currently in the locomotive?

DC MOTOR / LIONDRIVE W/ FLYWHEEL W/ SENSOR / LEG - 6801505601

Before you go nuts, take the flywheel off, and carefully take a fingernail, and see if you can pick that galled plastic off,……don’t panic if the cage ( encoder wheel ) pops off the flywheel,…..it’s designed to pop on & off,…..but I’d leave the encoder wheel on the flywheel for the added rigidity to attempt a clean up,…..I’ve seen this before, and I’ve been able to clean off the galled up plastic,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Before you go nuts, take the flywheel off, and carefully take a fingernail, and see if you can pick that galled plastic off,……don’t panic if the cage ( encoder wheel ) pops off the flywheel,…..it’s designed to pop on & off,…..but I’d leave the encoder wheel on the flywheel for the added rigidity to attempt a clean up,…..I’ve seen this before, and I’ve been able to clean off the galled up plastic,….

Pat

ok thanks, I'll try that first.  I just need to get to Lowes this weekend and get the right allen wrenches to get that off, the set I have doesn't fit.

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

ok thanks, I'll try that first.  I just need to get to Lowes this weekend and get the right allen wrenches to get that off, the set I have doesn't fit.

Go to Harbor Freight if you have one locally, ……you’ll have better luck there than the big box stores,….😉

Pat

Psst.  You can get the encoder ring seperately without buying a box of cereal!    In the event it doesn't clean up.

Jim

@Jim Sandman posted:

Psst.  You can get the encoder ring seperately without buying a box of cereal!    In the event it doesn't clean up.

Jim

THANK YOU! Order placed!!!!

My experience has been when the encoder ring hits the bottom and gets chewed up, it's usually one of two things.  Either the set setscrews on the flywheel are loose (most common), or the motor has excessive end play.  If the motor has too much end play, you need a new motor.  It's possible to remove the encoder board from the motor and move it to a new motor.  The trick is finding a compatible new motor...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

My experience has been when the encoder ring hits the bottom and gets chewed up, it's usually one of two things.  Either the set setscrews on the flywheel are loose (most common), or the motor has excessive end play.  If the motor has too much end play, you need a new motor.  It's possible to remove the encoder board from the motor and move it to a new motor.  The trick is finding a compatible new motor...

yeah that is the issue I'm facing right now.  I emailed Lionel and they said those motors are not and will not be in stock.  I have an email out to a few places Lionel recommended to see if they have the motor.  They also said that if the parts site doesn't list a similar part then there is no other motor they recommend instead.

The ring doesn't look to me like it was chewed up, more like it was just made poorly.  But I think you have seen where more of this so if you say that is what it is, I trust your opinion! 

I'll start by replacing the ring and then keep searching for the motor and replace that if I can. 

What do you think of the motor above, how can I tell if something like using a different motor would work?  The Lionel parts site doesn't have specs or anything on it so other than the picture I'm not sure how to choose a similar motor.

The motor should have no more than about 1/16" end play.  If it's more than that, the motor is probably bad.  If the end play is good, you should be fine.  If you need another motor, given this is a LionDrive model, maybe one of the other LionDrive motors will work.  You don't have the issue of matching worm gears.

@harmonyards, @Jim Sandman, @gunrunnerjohn - Thank you all for your help!  I took the locomotive apart this AM and cleaned up / picked at the encoder ring using a small hobby blade as you guys suggested.  IT WORKED!  The engine runs fantastic now, start up and slow down are all smooth now and I don't notice any hesitation at all.

Thank you all for your help with this.  I did order a new encoder ring so when that comes, I might try to get that installed but I'm in no rush, the engine runs like new.

Now I just need to find the proper "elephant ears" for this engine, this one came with solid black ones, but I know they should have been grey with the yellow strip.

Picture of the plastic I was able to scrape off.

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

@harmonyards, @Jim Sandman, @gunrunnerjohn - Thank you all for your help!  I took the locomotive apart this AM and cleaned up / picked at the encoder ring using a small hobby blade as you guys suggested.  IT WORKED!  The engine runs fantastic now, start up and slow down are all smooth now and I don't notice any hesitation at all.

Thank you all for your help with this.  I did order a new encoder ring so when that comes, I might try to get that installed but I'm in no rush, the engine runs like new.

Now I just need to find the proper "elephant ears" for this engine, this one came with solid black ones, but I know they should have been grey with the yellow strip.

Picture of the plastic I was able to scrape off.

Did you check your end play and adjust accordingly?……you kinda got lucky this time, as the cage didn’t wipe out the sensor on the board,…..I’ve seen that happen too, for a fabulous double whammy effect ……just be sure when the shaft is at it’s bottom most endplay, the bottom of the encoder ring isn’t scrubbing on the sensor…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Did you check your end play and adjust accordingly?……you kinda got lucky this time, as the cage didn’t wipe out the sensor on the board,…..I’ve seen that happen too, for a fabulous double whammy effect ……just be sure when the shaft is at it’s bottom most endplay, the bottom of the encoder ring isn’t scrubbing on the sensor…

Pat

ok I took it apart again and checked it really closely. Nothing is coming close to hitting / rubbing the sensor and I checked closely and the ring doesn't scrap anything on the circuit board under it either.  I think I'm good, fingers crossed.

Great, another problem in the books!

The motor doctor can repair train motors as well and is a great Guy!

Commutator Repair (themotordoctor.com)

Alan

@Alan Mancus posted:

The motor doctor can repair train motors as well and is a great Guy!

Commutator Repair (themotordoctor.com)

Alan

I'd be surprised if he wanted to deal with can motors.  Most are sealed and presumed non-repairable.  I know I've taken several apart to see what happened, and usually it's a one-way trip.