Help with TPC 400

Captk:

The TPC 400 is capable of putting out 400 watts of power but wil only put out the power of the source connected to it so with a 180 watt power source conected the TPC will only put out a max of 180 watts.

I'm not sure how you connected two TPC units to the power brick but am assuming a paralell connection which should end up giving you 90 watts ouput per TPC which is not much to run trains. This may be your problem.

You can try connecting one TPC to both tracks or each track at a time and see how it performs with 180 watts coming out. You can also do the same with the second TPC to make sure both are running properly.

I have a Z4000 transformer with about 180 watts per tap. I have both taps connected to one TPC which should give about 360 watts of power to the TPC. So the TPC is capable of delivering 360 watts to the layout if neeeded though I woul dbe real scared if I ever needed that much.

Joe

I question the "daisy chained" comment here as well!

Can someone show me the exact way to wire two tpc400 so that one reads track1 the other track2

TimK

The TPC's don't "read" the tracks.  You apply power to the input power connections, and they power the tracks.

If you only have one 180W brick, what you really need is more power, the TPC is just a power management device, not a power supply.

This is right from the manual, to wire another TPC, you'd typically have another transformer or PowerHouse and wire the second track just like this.

John I thought I could get by with (1) command base. My track 1 is ok My track 2 is nothing. I have the power from the 180 brick with a hot and neg wire to both TPC's then I put the daisy chain wire from one Tpc to the other. I still get no juice when I try to say tr 2 boost like tr 1 from cab 1 Can anybody who has done this show what I am missing

TimK

The command base and the PowerHouse are two totally different things.

Are you talking the daisy chain for the command base serial port?  That's perfectly normal.

If you look at the above diagram, to add a second TPC, you'd simply extend the serial cable lines to the second one, and as you say, connect the second TPC to the second track.  From the manual.

You may choose to power additional TMCC products using the same power supply and Command Base by creating a “daisy chain,” or a series of TMCC units wired in succession.
To make these connections, we recommend that you purchase a Controller to Controller Cable, available separately in various lengths. COMM connections for additional units
Attach a red wire to the DAT terminal of the TPC unit and connect it to the DAT terminal of the next TMCC product. Attach a green wire to the COM terminal of your TPC unit and connect it to the COM terminal of the next product. Add additional products in the same manner, connecting the DAT terminals and the COM terminals.

Did you try swapping the two TPC's to see if there's a problem with the one unit or wiring?  Are you seeing the COMM light blink when you're addressing the TPC?

you can use one command base for both tpc's but each tpc needs it own power supply.

You are just fine using one brick for two TPCs if your trains don't draw a lot of current.

I think you problem is that you haven't programmed the second TPC to be Engine or Track #2.  You must do this to get it to respond as #2!  Check the TPC instructions for assigning a number to your TPC.

Dale:

Any reason why someone would want to use two TPC400's with one power brick? It seems to me to be a waste of TPC units.

Why would two TPC's be necessary unless CaptK's track 1 is isolated from track 2 so each TPC controls each track???

Also have a new question for you. I run a Z4000 both taps into a TPC400 then to track. The common wire from my Legacy goes to the track ground. What I have noticed is that after starting an engine in command mode then shutting it down if I rotate the red knob on the Cab 2 while the engine number is still showing on the display the engine will start moving in silent mode. I can even reverse directions. No other engine on track willl move only the engine that is addressed on the cab unit. But this does occur for all my engines on track provided they are started up in command mode first. Any ideas?

Joe

With two TPC's, you can run two conventional engines on the separate tracks.

If you can afford two TPC-400's, you'd think that springing for another brick wouldn't be a factor.

All mine do that too. Thought that was a "normal" undocumended feature. 

The Z4000 documentation indicates that you should not tie the two outputs together.  The patent talks about how the unit dynamically tests for a short between the outputs.

The "sticky" mode of the buttons means that the CAB will still be addressing the engine number until you change the engine number on the remote.  I guess if the remote sends a valid speed or direction command, the locomotive will respond.

Two TPCs = control of two trains on separate blocks or loops.  He isn't paralleling the outputs into one track.  He is just sharing the power source.

Dale:

thanks for the reply - I may end up just buying two 180 power bricks for the TPC and keeping the Z4000 for accessories and  conventional control since I don't like using the cab 2 for this purpose (too much fiddling with the red knob even with setting min start up voltage)

It also sounds like my issue with silent runners is experienced by others given cjack's comment.

I don't understand why so many folks waste money buying a TPC 400 rather than a 300, especially since most of us can get by with one 180W brick running into the TPC.  To the best of my knowledge, the only differences between the two are the outer finish and the circuit breaker.  Neither one of those costs Lionel a penny!

So if one changed the breaker, that would be the only limitation on running 400 watts thru the TPC 300?

Yes, I believe so.

I'd like to see someone that had actually done that, I have a couple of TPC-300's that I'd gladly convert to 400's if that was it.  Is the circuit breaker a commonly available item?

I think that would be a Schurter TS-710-20. I haven't had any luck finding it. I can find up to 16 amps. I think it mounts in a round or D hole...then of course has the square front...spade lugs at the back.

But any 20 amp thermal circuit breaker would work...maybe fit in the FP hole...maybe do it with a better-faster electronic circuit interrupter. Put a Jeweled pilot lamp in the hole.

I don't have a TPC300 but wouldn't this one work?  TS-701-HT-20 at Mouser.

Ron

Well, I'd be looking for one that replaces the existing one without hacking up the case, so it would have to be one of the square ones.  There's a 15A in there now. 

I just rechecked my notes, and I would like to modify my previous comments.  My notes indicate that there is indeed a difference in the power Triac between the TPC300 and TPC400, but I don't believe it affects the output capability:

The TPC300 apparently uses a Q2040K7 Alternistor, and the TPC400 uses a Q4040K7.  Both devices are 40 amp devices, but the Q40 indicates 400V rather than 200V.  I don't think this is a factor if the layout is using the TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressor) protectors that we recommend on this Forum.  Transients should be clamped to less than 50V by the TVS.

The circuit breaker in my notes is a Schurter TS-710 15 amp for the 300 and 20 amp for the 400.  I don't find any of these units listed at Mouser/Digikey/etc. with that high a current rating, although I think they had them a few years ago when I analyzed my TPC300.  Since this circuit breaker is attached in series with the Power In Hot line, an external breaker would work just as well.  Personally, I like a rocker style circuit breaker like the unilluminated Tyco W51 series at http://www.mouser.com/MobileCatalog.aspx?page=1938 .  It can also serve as an ON/OFF switch.

I'm presuming you're talking about bypassing the internal circuit breaker instead of replacing it?

Yes, bypassing internally and replacing with an external breaker.

FWIW, I don't condone the idea of dual bricks.  I can't see the need for that much current, and I don't like the associated hazards.

I thought the 300 was to put 2 135 bricks together and the 400 2 180 bricks together. Lionel even sells the cable to do this.

I thought there is stuff in these devices to make it OK.

Which kinda' makes the TPC-400 semi-useless.   In any case, I'm not sure I want more than 300 watts of power available on one power district anyway, maybe I'll just leave mine alone.

Yes, I think the first question to ask is "Do I REALLY NEED that much current?"

If I put 2 180 bricks into a 300 it will just pop the breaker at 15 amps of current and do no damage.

I guess the same would be true for a Powermaster track power controller. The original was rated for a 135 brick and the latter for a 180 brick.

Somewhere the original poster got lost. In reading everything I wonder if the 2nd TPC is not connected via common to the command base.

If they were both set at ENG 1 they would work in unision independently. Almost an oxymoron.

I have a place where I can use that much current for lighting. For trains only in extreme cases like Tom Z where he runs 5 engines and a couple of hundred cars on the same loop.

For lighting, I've never felt the need to put a fancy control box that costs in excess of $100 in front.   A simple PW transformer seems to do the trick.

I'm using a CW-80 for lights, another for accessories, etc. I am using the "programmable" accessory output for these loads, but wanted to use the variable (red handle) output. When I powered the lights, I noticed that the lamp intensity oscillated and was very annoying. So I switched to the programmed accessory output which is quite stable.

So...I am wondering why the instability in the red handle output. Anybody look into this? I am no stranger to feedback systems and did fix my Kitchen Aid mixer which did that at certain speeds, so just kind of lazy about it,  but wondering if anybody has noticed this or done anything about it.

I don't know any reason for the pulsating output, did you swap the transformer leads?  Are any of the lights and/or accessories sharing a common with other transformers?

No on all...think I'll get one or more on the bench and see if it's chronic...

I just connected my one and only CW-80 to 60 watts of lights, it varies them smoothly from off to max brightness.  Don't know what's going on with yours.

Hmmm...I have a network of lights, maybe it's some how the particular load. Although it seems unlikely that I have a negative resistance somehow. I'll have to drop loads and see what happens. Thanks.

WRT connecting both taps of a Z4000 transformer to the input of a TPC 400, I sent an email to Barry Broskowitz asking about potential shorting issues. He did not really know so suggested I send a question off to MTH which I did yesterday. When I get an answer from MTH I will share.

Joe

From the instruction manual.

Note: The owner should not, at any time, attempt to connect or short any of the voltage outputs

together in an effort to gain more power output. If the user attempts such a procedure, the Z-

4000 may become permanently disabled. At the very least, the Z-4000 will automatically shut

down and the red OVERLOAD light will be illuminated

I have the same problem. I have 2 TPC 400 with a power pac on each one.  Do I daisy chain the wire from the Command base from TPC#1 to TPC#2?

You can either daisy-chain or wire direct to each.

I believe the Z4000 has internal shutdown sensing that senses if the outputs are tied together.