Matt Makens posted:Ok, bad example. But given the lack of stimulating content lately why can't you guys just let him dream.
Matt,
What we have here now, is a topic that's been stimulated!
Simon 
jonnyspeed posted:Last time I checked this was a free forum where we are free to post about whatever we want. Didn't your mom ever tell you "If you don't have anything nice to say..."? If it's not your cup of tea then why bother commenting?
That my friend is exactly what we are doing.
Unfortunately, my Mom has passed on and I'm a bit grumpier than she.
Simon
If they want in on the 2 rail market, they'd have to step up their game. Their latest E7's are a joke next to Sunset's, who has been improving their diesels since their E7 debut.
Hot Water posted:Matt Makens posted:He's not an idiot, he is well aware of what he is asking
Really? Then why does he keep asking for stuff on the various OGR Forums?
I'm curious .... who are the three forum members that "liked" Hot Water's implication that Swafford is an idiot?
Anyway ... I would welcome Lionel getting involved in this. And, want to nudge them, too. Seeing/hearing the wonderful things that folks such as Jonnyspeed Jonathan do with the aftermarket DCC decoders and such ... I wouldn't mind losing the third rail at all.
(My railroads are very small .... a transition to 2-rail is easily achievable)
Thanks, Swafford
Matt01 posted:
I'm curious .... who are the three forum members that "liked" Hot Water's implication that Swafford is an idiot?
Anyway ... I would welcome Lionel getting involved in this. And, want to nudge them, too. Seeing/hearing the wonderful things that folks such as Jonnyspeed Jonathan do with the aftermarket DCC decoders and such ... I wouldn't mind losing the third rail at all.
(My railroads are very small .... a transition to 2-rail is easily achievable)
Thanks, Swafford
Two rail is the way to go! What's not to like?
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Well the truth is, Im not in the market for an expensive brass SD45. I just couldn't stretch that far for it. I do knew Lionel can and do make some nice scale models when they wont to. If they made a two rail model of an SD45 Id be paying attention, similarly for an SD40-2. Ive converted there sharknose diesel and its better than most brass models of that type. I think anything that bridges the gap between 3 rail and 2 rail is, or would be good news, and not every one is in the $3000.00 dollar market. The power blocks in some Lionel models already just unscrew, they just need 2 rail wheels and pickups. cTr...( Choose the Right )
Stephen,
You've hit the "spike" right on the head,pun intended.Lol
Everything that can be done to make 2rail more widely accepted is great,just like you said & it makes sense from a manufacturer's point of view. The easier to convert 3 rail to 2 rail makes it better for the modeler & manufacturer. That way,in my little brain,so much money wouldn't have to be presented up front in manufacturing runs for 2 & 3 rail separately. This is my hope,but only being in 2 rail for 2 years I'm really a beginner yet & have a ton to learn. (At almost 59,I can't take too much time).
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
Al Hummel
Hmmm.... not sure I want something that "bridges the gap" between 2- & 3-rail ; sounds too much like Atlas Trainman, their RS3 in particular. A nice model, which I don't regret buying, but it has too many 3-rail 'leftovers' to make it a really good 2-rail model :-
Things that spoil it are stamped handrail stanchion strips, handrails ending short at the corners, & cast metal pilots, with Grand Canyon-like holes for 3-rail couplers & plastic spacers to fill the gap that truck-attached pilots have above them, along with over-high hoods, to clear the vertical motors.
To my mind, 2-rail locos should be designed as such from the start, not cobbled together with 3-rail compromises.
Plenty of room for such products, and actually plenty of products. Nobody in 2-rail is really being denied happiness.
SundayShunter posted:Hmmm.... not sure I want something that "bridges the gap" between 2- & 3-rail ; sounds too much like Atlas Trainman, their RS3 in particular. A nice model, which I don't regret buying, but it has too many 3-rail 'leftovers' to make it a really good 2-rail model :-
Things that spoil it are stamped handrail stanchion strips, handrails ending short at the corners, & cast metal pilots, with Grand Canyon-like holes for 3-rail couplers & plastic spacers to fill the gap that truck-attached pilots have above them, along with over-high hoods, to clear the vertical motors.
To my mind, 2-rail locos should be designed as such from the start, not cobbled together with 3-rail compromises.
If you don't want something that "Bridges the Gap", then don't buy that product.
Do you really think that the people that buy a Lincoln, or a Mustang, are really bothered by the fact that Ford also produces the Focus?
ANYTHING, that generates a profit for a manufacturer, helps subsidize ALL product lines. If the choice is a $3,000.00 Diesel, or a convertible Lionel product in the $4-600 range guess which I (and MANY others as well, I'm sure) would buy.
Not EVERY product that a Manufacturer offers, has to appeal to YOU, there would likely be many others(as evidenced by the responses in this thread) that WOULD want said products.
Doug
bob2 posted:Nobody in 2-rail is really being denied happiness.
A bit presumptuous that, speaking for EVERYONE.
The more stuff out there,the LESS likely another importer is to do the same project, and if the first party does a stinker, sometimes it's a long wait for a decent version.
Simon
bob2 posted:Plenty of room for such products, and actually plenty of products.
All too true - certainly the latter is true. Attend any meet and there's more stuff available than ever before. However, if you're married to a specific imported/brand name, that's another story and while....
Nobody in 2-rail is really being denied happiness.
......some deny it to themselves.
bob2 posted:Plenty of room for such products, and actually plenty of products. Nobody in 2-rail is really being denied happiness.
I don't know about happiness, but that's a pretty broad net to cast. I can give you a dozen examples, but I'll start with one category: Small steam has not been represented well in O scale, relatively speaking.
I've been looking for a Beaver Creek Models 4-6-0. They were extremely limited and nobody wants to part with them for under $2k. That doesn't make me happy.
Good Day Everyone,
Well my post created the good, the bad and the ugly. The most important result of my post? It made Model Railroaders think! Without new ideas, suggestions and dreams this hobby is dead. I enjoy bold ideas, awesome technologies and fantastic new products. Many on the engines and rolling stock that have been presented by model railroad companies in the past were developed and offered as a result of Model Railroaders ideas!
Always keep your dreams and ideas coming!
Best Regards,
Swafford
Swafford,
Great post!!
O Scale & especially 2 rail O Scale is a small market,O Scale as a whole is a small market & we need fresh suggestions & ideas to bolster our Scale.
Al Hummel
Dare to dream Frank!!!
challenger3980 posted:SundayShunter posted:Hmmm.... not sure I want something that "bridges the gap" between 2- & 3-rail ; sounds too much like Atlas Trainman, their RS3 in particular. A nice model, which I don't regret buying, but it has too many 3-rail 'leftovers' to make it a really good 2-rail model :-
Things that spoil it are stamped handrail stanchion strips, handrails ending short at the corners, & cast metal pilots, with Grand Canyon-like holes for 3-rail couplers & plastic spacers to fill the gap that truck-attached pilots have above them, along with over-high hoods, to clear the vertical motors.
To my mind, 2-rail locos should be designed as such from the start, not cobbled together with 3-rail compromises.
If you don't want something that "Bridges the Gap", then don't buy that product.
Do you really think that the people that buy a Lincoln, or a Mustang, are really bothered by the fact that Ford also produces the Focus?
ANYTHING, that generates a profit for a manufacturer, helps subsidize ALL product lines. If the choice is a $3,000.00 Diesel, or a convertible Lionel product in the $4-600 range guess which I (and MANY others as well, I'm sure) would buy.
Not EVERY product that a Manufacturer offers, has to appeal to YOU, there would likely be many others(as evidenced by the responses in this thread) that WOULD want said products.
Doug
Hey, whoa, reign in the horses!! What I said was just my opinion, not intended to be a "one size fits no-one" attempt to force everyone to agree with it!!
Re the Atlas TM RS3; I got it at a bargain price off ebay, & as such (& as I said in my post) I do like it, but just maybe if I'd seen it for real first & known about the compromises, then quite possibly I wouldn't have bought it either. So in general, no, I don't tend to buy "bridge the gap" models if possible.
I'm not in the market for mega-buck brass either, believe me! But being on the right-hand side of The Pond, here in the UK mainstream O Scale is almost exclusively 2-rail. A Danish company called Heljan have been making R-T-R British diesels for some while now; there is absolutely Zero demand for them to be made available in 3-rail at all. Whilst I take the point that all a Company's products subsidise it's 'less popular/profitable' products, I do think that if a maker like Lionel is going to break into 2-rail diesels, then it should be brave and offer something that stands completely apart from 3-rail standards. To go to your car (automobile) analogy; indeed buyers of Lincolns & Mustangs won't care about the Focus, but they'll also want the quality of finish of their chosen vehicle to be that much better, too.
As for not having to like ALL the products a Company makes, after nearly 40 years in the hobby, I'm well aware of that, too, & certainly don't expect that to be the case either!! I know the most popular Era (in most scales) for American modellers is the 1950s Transition Era - in the UK it's much the same except that our Transition Era was a decade later!
Not being too interested myself in that Era of either Country means that there's a vast array of models available that I will never buy - so it's rather a good job there ARE modellers out there who want that stuff, to effectively subsidise my 'minority' interests, which tend to be early 1980s for both British Rail & the Soo Line, & fairly up-to-date/2000-onwards for my freelance Short Line.
Hey Swafford, I know how you must feel, just keep asking and questioning. You will get some positive answers. It seems like there always has to be a "Champion" for a project to get it off, and away from the same old same old!
I myself, still working through private emails to the major model train builders. Lionel-MTH-3rd Rail. Am wanting along with a few other's that have posted here on the OGR Forum, C&O "Super Makido" K2/K3 with both Tenders, as well as, the NYC H-10. I've gotten some, what I call, encouraging answers to my emails, so, as I've always been a firm believer in the "Squeaking Wheel Gets the Grease", just keep on keeping on, and maybe you can get more support, especially if you get any replies to the positive, from the builders themselves..........Brandy!
Hot Water posted:Matt Makens posted:Its a free country, he can ask for whatever he wants. Maybe he will get lucky and they'll actually take his suggestions to heart. Nobody busts your chops over your postings Jack.
The heck they don't!!!!!!!!!
LOL - but you live for it!
Does anyone ever write a letter to Lionel, MTH, Atlas or whomever and make their product demands known? Or is this forum the only piece of information that the manufacturers consult in making product decisions?
Or better yet, get some electronic petitions with the various road names, product details, price points, etc. that this 2 rail market would purchase and present it to the manufacturers at York. Show them on paper the large market that they are overlooking in their product line. It's all about the money. I am still waiting for the Austin and Northwestern products to come out.
I know I've written letters (actually email or product suggestion posts on their website), as well as spoke with manufacturers directly at shows like the March Meet, Trainfest, Worlds' Greatest Hobby on Tour and National Train Shows. I also regularly speak with dealers as well, because a lot of manufacturers ask their dealers for product suggestions.
I'm sure I've seen it written on the Atlas website (or maybe their old Forum) that they did not want "wish lists" of proposed models sending in, either by letter or email.
Sure. I sometimes mention what I would like to see, but I try to keep in mind that I may well be the only person in the whole world who wants such things.
For example, I would love to see the Ulrich drop-bottom hopper done in O Scale die cast. I even sent one to Sunset, but I knew at the time I was the only one who wanted one in lifetime metal. So, no need to make a big deal of it. Would I be happier with a train of these? Incrementally, maybe. But my overall happiness related to O Scale would not change.
O Scale may be relatively dead, but there is so much stuff available now in comparison . . . Small steam is abundant. The older stuff is out there, from Kemtron and Max Gray through Varney. Lobaugh did some, as did Division Point. If you are a Pennsy freak, the die casters have made buckets of small switchers.
Even the obscure Lima #1 was done by K-Line, and in 2-rail yet! And measured against almost anything, that was small steam. My Williams B6sbs dwarf it.
The only thing that now impacts my happiness quotient is not being able to support all these new things. It isn' that I don't have the bucks - it is that there is no more space for stuff! I feel guilty for not buying more Sunset/Lionel/MTH. I am not supporting our manufacturers.
bob2 posted:Sure. I sometimes mention what I would like to see, but I try to keep in mind that I may well be the only person in the whole world who wants such things.
Know that one well; PRR Yellow Kid pass train is next to the top of my list, but I fully accept that it and a CVRR Pioneer are pipe dreams at best - I'll get to building my own when I can.
It isn' that I don't have the bucks - it is that there is no more space for stuff! I feel guilty for not buying more Sunset/Lionel/MTH. I am not supporting our manufacturers.
It's all relative - space & time - I don't have the former and can't buy the latter. But I do not feel the guilt you report - it's uncommon that any of those 3 import anything of interest.
SundayShunter posted:I'm sure I've seen it written on the Atlas website (or maybe their old Forum) that they did not want "wish lists" of proposed models sending in, either by letter or email.
Maybe folks were talking on the old forum.
Both Atlas O and HO/N websites state .... "Suggestions for making a particular product or road name while appreciated and read, will not be responded to."
Would it be beneficial to make a train forum section on the OGR forum that is just for "What I Want To See Built", or "What I Hope You Are Putting In The 20xx Catalog"?
It would give the manufacturer's one place to look for the suggestions and reduce the man hours they spend every day searching through the OGR forum for this kind of marketing information.
I think that's a GREAT idea!! Just my 2 cents but I RELLY DO think that has merit. Thank you.
Al Hummel
aussteve posted:Would it be beneficial to make a train forum section on the OGR forum that is just for "What I Want To See Built", or "What I Hope You Are Putting In The 20xx Catalog"?
It would give the manufacturer's one place to look for the suggestions and reduce the man hours they spend every day searching through the OGR forum for this kind of marketing information.
Fantastic Idea............................... I like it!
Regards,
Swafford
SANTIAGOP23 posted:If they want in on the 2 rail market, they'd have to step up their game. Their latest E7's are a joke next to Sunset's, who has been improving their diesels since their E7 debut.
What's wrong with the Sunset E7's?
rex desilets posted:SANTIAGOP23 posted:If they want in on the 2 rail market, they'd have to step up their game. Their latest E7's are a joke next to Sunset's, who has been improving their diesels since their E7 debut.
What's wrong with the Sunset E7's?
Nothing. He was referring Lionel E7 models, when compared to Sunset's E7 models, i.e. Lionel must "step up their game".
aussteve posted:Would it be beneficial to make a train forum section on the OGR forum that is just for "What I Want To See Built", or "What I Hope You Are Putting In The 20xx Catalog"?
It would give the manufacturer's one place to look for the suggestions and reduce the man hours they spend every day searching through the OGR forum for this kind of marketing information.
Could actually be useful, but 'round here with 3 days and 30 pages of in fighting later and the usual noxious behavior will get that yanked......
SPSF posted:Which one will come out first?
MMW SD45
Atlas F7
Or MTH SD45 Southern Pacific
Probably the Lionel SD45
Lionel just listed their SD45 in the 2016 Volume 2 catalog. Although I won’t be reserving any since Lionel is again only offering them in 3-rail, I would be interested in seeing if Lionel is able to deliver their SD45 before Midwestern Model Works (MMW) does.
Also MMW recently updated their website with information on their SD45 project.
These are just my opinion,
Thanks,
Naveen Rajan
Dave - do you think Lionel could compete with the All Nation and Atlas NW-2s out there at $150? The All Nation NWs are all metal with horizontal drive.
In fact, I wonder if Lionel even wants to compete with all the 2- rail stuff out there? Apparently MTH is backing away from 2-rail a bit.
DaveJfr0 posted:Perhaps the AN model would cut interest from the some modelers that are into the older stuff, but I think the crowd that wants modern-day detailing, non-open-frame motors, etc. would pick up the Lionel.
They may want all that but will they pay for all that vs. the AN NW-2? BTW, the AN NW2 I have came with a can motor from AN.
DaveJfr0 posted:bob2 posted:Dave - do you think Lionel could compete with the All Nation and Atlas NW-2s out there at $150? The All Nation NWs are all metal with horizontal drive.
In fact, I wonder if Lionel even wants to compete with all the 2- rail stuff out there? Apparently MTH is backing away from 2-rail a bit.
For the modern modeler, Atlas has the SW's, but they alas are not NW's. If Lionel is going to detail these as specific as they say they are, then they will do better than Atlas detailing. I haven't seen many Atlas SW units out there at 150 personally, but I think its still different enough to warrant its price, especially if they put the DCC code in there.
Perhaps the AN model would cut interest from the some modelers that are into the older stuff, but I think the crowd that wants modern-day detailing, non-open-frame motors, etc. would pick up the Lionel.
Is there enough interest? Not sure. Sunset seems to be doing well with the prototypes they're choosing to do in plastic. Perhaps this would too. Obviously not my money, but if they're basically two-steps away from making a 2R model on this one, it would be just a little more effort to go all the way just once to test the waters. One step is easy with putting the DCC code in. The harder step would be making the 2R wheels/pickup system.
If they don't see feasibility in producing the ability to make them 2R, then it is what it is. However, pretty sure the board hardware is the same as S, which would mean it does cost them near zero to implement the same DCC code they're already supporting in S-scale. That would leave the 2Rers with a will, an ability to keep the Lionel innards, sound, etc.
They already have the ability to put DCC into S and O scale boards according to Jon Z. I have to say that while I really like the accurate DCC sounds and all of the options for different prime movers and whistles that can be changed at any time, I really prefer the Legacy system for running trains. I am a technology professional by trade, but I prefer the simple and fun design. If Lionel would offer me a 2 rail Legacy equipped engine I would jump on it. That's what lead me to S scale 5 years ago. I don't care if they do it in S or O. I'll buy.
That is what is so amazing about this whole situation. Now that the electronics are there to support 2R (at least a portion of the 2R market), as Jonathan and Dave pointed out why not implement the changes to better support changing out the wheelsets and electrical pickup for 2R? They could increase their market, after all these new Lionel locomotives are Build to Order anyway. Unless of course they don't want to sell more and then build more?
I would still contend that the problem is the fractured control systems in place for O scale 2R and 3R that continues to drive the business model when they look at their opportunity vs. cost.
I would guess it is the thinness of the market.
I think that 3rd Rail / Sunset may be your best choice to get a 2 rail model made. They will make a model if they can get enough reservations.
I have suggested to Scott Mann that he consider making the FP45. I like cowl units. This model has not been widely done in either 3 or 2 rail. MTH produced an early Premier version about 10 years ago that lacks many details. As far as I know, MTH has not updated the old model with better details and PS-3. (I am sure someone will let me know if I am wrong.)
I think that the FP45 would be a good candidate because it was used for both passenger and freight service by many railroads in both the primary and secondary market. Here are some photos that I took in Barstow, CA several years ago. The engine is on display at the Barstow station.
NH Joe
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I would love to see 2 rail SD40-2's, espically in BN with the offset horn and Prime digital beacon on the roof fully functional, Second would be the Montana Raillink version of the same unit and third would be the ATSF unit with the beacon on the offset platform. The era just prior to ditch lighting is one of my favorites. I would sign up for BN and MRL today if offered in 2 rail. If MTH can do 2 rail versions of many of thier offerings, there is no reason big L cannot do the same thing. Mike
