high prices on Lionel freight cars

Plenty of MPC cars for sale at cheap prices. 

I believe that the postwar #6356-style stock cars sold for $5.95.  Applying a consumer price index inflation calculator from 1955 to 2014 shows that the inflated selling price today would be $52.81.  The #19574 is a bargain by that measure.

I hate to say it but just like some of today's Legacy locomotives. Last time my bride was in the local hobby shop her jaw hit the floor. I HAD to remind her that I didn't have any of those!!!

Now where is that Lionel BNSF ES44AC hid? 

The 1955 Sears catalog offered a 624 C&O switcher for $25.00. I wanted it badly but my dad suggested I could get so many more toys for the same price. Got the other toys - they're looong gone - still would like the 624 (around two bills in good shape today). 

Hi Tiffany

Hows your project going? 

   I bought a lot of older Weaver (the ones with the plastic trucks) There really is nothing wrong with them. They are all scale size, excellent paint jobs, good detail, and are easy to install Kadee couplers. I was fortunate that I bought them new years ago, I sold a bunch off and still have a couple hundred of them. Still made in USA. I buy very few pieces of rolling stock now. Look for them at train shows they sell cheap. The smaller hoppers and box cars go well with traditional size trains. Look really good behind your F-3's.

Clem k

For me it depends on the detail. The Lionel Vision Line (hope I got that right) freight has extraordinary detail and roll quality. Even better than MTH Premier. New you usually see these for up to $70. Thanks to the FSOT forum though I've gotten quite a few for $35 to $50 which I consider to be a bargain for the level of quality.

Hi Tiffany,

A great point! I have noticed in the tinplate area as well. A few years ago the 500 series freight cars were $99, then jumped to $129.99 and now are $149.99. as far as the 3 rail stuff they have gone up too but what has not in our lives. I was going to start listing some older newer production stuff on the bay, and went in to look to see what they were going for and they are ridiculously low. cars that are listed for $15-$20 are not selling and they also have reasonable shipping rates. I might post a few of them here on the forum on the for sale thread.

JoeG

I am not sure but I think most of Weaver cars and some engines are still made in the USA. My question is how is Weaver able to make their cars here for a lower price then Lionel, MTH and Atlas?. Again I do not have all the info but looking at the new Lionel catalog the cost for a plastic 40’ PS-1 box car is around $74.99. A Weaver Plastic 40’ PS-1 Box Car in their 2013 catalog is $47.95 and that is made in the USA. We have had a number of threads about USA Vs China in the past and I do not want to go there again. I think it comes down to how much profit is made and how much you are willing to fork out for a plastic box car.

Bob's right. Many folks are ignorant about history. Lionel trains are expensive, but they always have been. (And Lionel has stated this.) Most families in the 50s couldn't afford them. For the most part, adjusting for inflation, for similar items they're no more expensive today than they were in the Postwar years.

Based upon median income, 1955 $3,301.54; 2012 $44,321.67. Basically, a car that is $47.95 today would cost around $3.57 in 1955. 

I recognize that economically, things are relative, but $37.95 does not meet the threshold of "High Priced" by any standard I'm familiar with. A quick Google search for "Kohs" and there you'll see "High Priced". 

RMT, WbB, and Menards all offer extremely affordable (new) traditional rolling stock. 

Gilly

This may not answer your question, but have you seen the resale price for some coveted cars.  Case in point, Santa Fe War Bonnet cars offered in 2010, now selling for $250 on the 'Bay.  Love them, but would never consider paying that type of price.  

If you are BENT on buying new then yes it can get pricy. However with patience and doing some research and attending other venues than a pricy train store you can purchase for less. It all depends on your motivation. For me I have been priced out of "new" for several years now but it doesn't stop me. Last August I WS able to purchase at discounts the PRR ALCo S2 powered and dummy units from a forumite as well as a subsequent purchase of the highly sought after"Bernie Levins" MTH E8 set all were received in like new condition including the boxes. Saved over 30% msrp. Patients prevails!

It is all relative. Having been around for the fifties and buying trains and accessories with money I earned from my paper route, I don't think today's prices, taking inflation into consideration, are out of line.

There are very good bargains to be had with much of the rolling stock available. It is called shopping with a keen eye.

I would not lose any sleep over this Tiffany.

Tiffany,

I suggest you check out the freight cars at your local train shows. MPC freight cars are great runners. I ran them on our layout for several years. You can find them with both plastic and die-cast trucks. I also loved Weaver freight cars.

lets see milk .92 gallon  bread .18 loaf gas .23 gallon average prices in 1955. in 1969 you could buy a SS396Camaro nicely equipped for about $4000. in 2000 my  Camaro's SS package was $4800. no car included. in 2014 a SS Camaro is over $40,000. all current  prices for everything is unbelievable for us "golden year" people but what can you do. either give up or pay up.

my suggestion buy used and especially look at the weaver great value there plus U.S. made as an extra bonus!

The comparison is unfair. Lionel trains up until 1991 were made by skilled US labor and crafts people. That's worth more to me than any imported item. Todays Lionel Corp is  an importer without a production facility. They just farm out the work to the lowest bidder in China and place a sky high markup on them to make you feel as though you are buying an upscale item. I view this stuff as just toys with a high price tag that will only continue to decline in value but many disagree.

GTW:  I have a 624 for sale. Give me your email and I will send some pictures. Will be at York all 3 days if you would be interested. In fact I just test ran it tonight to make sure all was well.  

Unfortunately, this view could be taken for most goods manufactured outside the USA.  I believe the foreign goods are not all bad, cheaply made and not worthy of my purchases. Beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder.  The quality of foreign goods must be measured by each purchaser.  Pricing, by the seller, can be what they wish to sell it for, but often is discounted to a reasonable price for the consumer.  As to whether these are toys, heck, we have debated that ad-nausmeum, and some think all these things are toys, and some don't.

The debate will go on forever.

There needs to be new O Scale and S Scale freight cars made in the USA that are based on Real Freight Cars NEVER before produced in O Scale and S Scale.

Andrew 

Most things are made overseas for one reason--- they are cheaper to make, plain and simple.

Sorry to say mfg. coming back to the USA is not going to happen on any large basis or Any time soon. 

Here is a conversion tool that will tell you. Enter what it cost now and it shows the equivalent price back then.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 Speed cost money. how fast do you want to go.

Bill

During my toy train childhood, two Lionel catalogs stand out in my mind:  1966 and 1969.  I have both in pristine condition (which I purchased a couple of years ago from a fellow in Washington state who sells old Lionel paper goods).  The actual catalogs I paged through as kid have seen better days.

In the 1966 catalog which had only 16-17 pages devoted to O-Gauge trains, the 6464 boxcars were $6.00, 15" passenger cars were $16, FM Trainmasters were $65, the #773 NYC Hudson was $90, and the ZW transformer was $40.   

The "premium" train set of the day was a whopping $225, which included the #773 Hudson, SEVEN freight cars (two of which were of the "operating" variety), Super-O track with a pair of remote control switches to create a 99"x54" double-oval layout, along with the venerable ZW transformer.   

I recall my parents telling me my Dad's first job as an accountant paid $75/week.  So that premium train set price tag of $225 took up over 2/3 of his monthly gross wage!  Instead, my first O-27 train set in that catalog priced in at $41.50 MSRP... and I recall my Dad mentioning he got a nice deal on it because one of his co-workers knew somebody who worked at Lionel's Hoffman Place location in Hillside, NJ.

By 1969, the Lionel catalog had shrunk to a feeble 8 pages, and the rear cover had six pieces of premium rolling stock with die cast trucks and solid steel wheels.  Five 6464 boxcars and a Sunoco triple-dome tanker all listed for $9.00 MSRP.

Those two Lionel catalogs bring back some very vivid memories of a wonderful childhood.  Dad is no longer with us, but my love for him and the hobby he started me on live on forever. 

David

IH all!I got a few weaver cars they run pretty good.The only thing is weight to lite so i added some more weight.Done with old aaa batteries wrapped in electric tape or any other things that can be used.To be on the safe side I gonna replace that with some thing else.I got the cars for $30.00 to maybe $35.00.I got some pretty good deals on railking boxcars.I agree that some prices are just nutts.So I go on the hunt sure it may take longer but sometimes you can get what you want.

This always comes up in various forms - what was cheaper when?

One thing I've pointed out is that back in the Postwar era, this was mostly a seasonal toy sold by small Mom & Pop hardware and appliance stores as well as Department stores both of which wanted to get rid of their stock after the holidays. My parents would buy next year's presents for me on the day after Christmas for a fraction of what it went for on Christmas Eve. When I got older, I would take my gift money and do the same. My blue GM Generator Car still has the sales price of $2.75 on the box.

Yes, Lionel was and still is high-end, but I think a lot of people found those sales the same as I did otherwise this hobby would be a lot smaller than it is.

.   

In 1955 I bought an operating log car for $9 and an operating cattle car for $15.  This was a lot of money for a 13 year old kid making money delivering newspapers.

Recently I bought 39 cars, mostly MPC, from a dealer for $70.  I paid $1 each for the MPC cars.  They were not new but most were is good condition.

I'm pretty sure by the 70's Lionel began to show how expensive it could be. Premium engines commanded $400 to $500.

Then things really skyrocketed by the 80's during the huge inflation of collecting, and really seemed to set the stage of how Lionel priced their trains, both lower and higher end products. For example, the new 1-700E scale Hudson from 1990 had an MSRP of about $1200, or $1500 with the display case. Keeping things in perspective, that's actually not far off from the Vision Line 700E Hudson.

Of course I remember that things went through quite a few shifts during the 90's, when some years products would seem to abruptly get higher or lower in prices. For example, 1993 had numerous lower priced items compared to say 1997.

I personally don't buy too much of the very new Lionel rolling stock, except for some of the grand scale equipment. I'm perfectly happy buying reasonably priced LTI Standard O rolling stock (each at about $20 to $25 a pop) which looks just fine behind any of my new Legacy diesels and steam engines.

In the early 70's I worked at Wise Potato Chips for $3.11 an hour.

Salaries have increased more than 9X fold since then.

Trains, like cars, always seem to stay a little bit out of reach.

My LHS manager once lamented that well meaning relatives give kids $25 gift certificates to his store and when they come in there is little in O scale they can buy.

I don't recall Lionel listing locomotives at that high a price point back then, although the beginnings of a "collectors market" may have driven prices on a few select pieces up into that range.  

For example, the two FM Trainmasters from the late 1970's -- Virginian in blue/yellow and SP in the 1954-prototype Black Widow scheme --  could first be had for about $150 street-price at Charlie Ro.  But within a couple of years, sellers who still had some in their inventory were reeking havoc with the SP -- often asking more than $600 for it.  And folks paid the asking price, 'cause they had just witnessed toy train manufacturing bounce back from near-nothing in 1969.  So to see such variety of product again was toy train heaven -- and lots of folks would snatch up product even at crazy price points in fear of another 1969 looming down the road.  Ironically, we haven't seen anything close to 1969's production level dearth ever again -- at least not to date.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

David

There is one important part of the puzzle missing in then and now price comparisons, which is that "Fair Trade" was still in place. Dealers had a selling range they were required to adhere to prior to the holiday selling season. Violate the rules and manufacturers could, and did stop selling to that store. After the holidays the seasonal sellers would get rid of the old product at deep discounts to avoid storage issues for the next nine months or so. More than price, the dealers (hobby shops, department stores, and seasonal sellers) had to compete with quality service. The stores that offered the service did much better with sales than those that were lacking in the service area. When I was a kid in Southern California we had Lionel in Sears, May Co., Buffums, Broadway, JC Penney and others, as well as the traditional toy and hobby stores. All had layouts set up and someone to demonstrate the trains and answer questions and were paid pretty good. A man a few doors down sold suits most of the year and manned the train department during the Christmas season. (Nowadays if you go into Sears you are lucky if the clerk knows what end of the screwdriver to hold.) After Christmas, the Broadway in Anaheim would take the train display down over New Years (the sales started the day after Christmas) and everything that was used on the display was put out on a table at even better prices. I was able to get five 6464's one year for ten dollars. No boxes, but who knew then that cardboard would one day be worth as much or more in some cases than the trains. Oh, to be a kid again!   

Now off to York!

Regards,

Randall

It seems that Lionel's prices are not that bad. Go look at Williams by Bachmann, $67.95 & up for a standard freight car, operating freight cars around $125.00 plus you need the Bachmann remote at $70.00.

Lee Fritz

Randall you are correct.

I remember Lionel Post War boxes having a printed symbol of a top hat, on its' top, with the open end upright and having toys protruding out of the open end and above it was printed: "Toy Fair", which might have been different, or affiliated with the 'Merchandise Mart' of Chicago, Illinois.

Ralph

It's threads like these that serve to emphasize that, though a lot of us post here,

there are at least two different hobbies being discussed. Different planets, even.

A 1991 "home-built" boxcar cannot compare, on any level of MODELING to one of the

new Lionel (or other's) boxcar. Mars and Venus. Personally, I don't care where they are

made (that ship has sailed, been torpedoed, and sunk - by our own doing). Considering where I grew up and still live, Lionel, AF and Marx were NEVER made within 2000 miles of my house - so the definition of "foreign" does vary a bit... (OK, the old Chicago-AF was made "only" 1000 miles due North of here, but not the New Haven S, that I saw as a kid).

And how many USA-ers will drive their Euro or Asian cars to get lunch today?

I'll buy imported boxcars all day long - but both of my automobiles were Imported

From Detroit (...now with an Italian accent! Molto bene!).

If it weren't for the nice new stuff, from wherever, I wouldn't be in this hobby at all.

===

One footnote: as with my automobiles, if the products are equal in the ways that matter

to me, I will almost always give the nod to Domestic. But it has to be - and is, often as not - an equivalent or superior product. 

A big problem is that people (younger in particular) just don't have the disposable income anymore to purchase expensive train items. Sure, you can say that prices are the same as in 1955 taking into account inflation, but people have less money to spend on them.  

Unfortunately, some, or most people have less income today, young and old, especially if on a fixed income.

In my opinion, todays prices of trains, as well as, other consumer products, are unreasonably high!!!!!

Ralph

Yet somehow they manage to dispose of it on smart phones, tablets, 4G service, internet service providers and cable/satellite providers.

Rusty

That's what I mean. People aged 20 to about 40 see those things as more essential. It's why the hobby is suffering with younger generations. Not to mention, the cost of living continues to rise at a faster pace than people's salaries.

And do you really think a younger person is going to choose model trains over internet service or cable tv? I'm 36 and NONE of my friends or acquaintances have a model train layout for themselves or for their kids (other than a cheap plastic or wooden toy one). My point is, unless there's a keen interest in model trains, they are not shelling out $50 or more for a box car. Luckily, my father handed down numerous Lionel items to me and my father-in-law is a train nu and has as well. Otherwise, I would never put out the money to start a layout from scratch.  

Yet they also freely dispose of their income on X-Box 360s, Sony Playstations, Wiis, etc. along with their respective game cartridges/disks and all of those aren't exactly cheap either and add up.  I don't think those are not considered essential even compared to  phones and tablets.