high temps and trains

It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

It doesn’t matter , the shipping containers the trains come over in from overseas are not temperature or humidity controlled. Nothing the trains are going to encounter are any worse than being 4 or 5 high on the ocean in an intermodal box.

When receiving new trains that have been left on my doorstep by a delivery company either in extremely hot or cold weather, a  precaution I take is to bring the package inside, and put it on the workbench in my trainroom, and either let the package cool down, or warm up for several hours, maybe overnight, letting the package reach room temperature before I open it up and test run it.

@Craignor posted:

When receiving new trains that have been left on my doorstep by a delivery company either in extremely hot or cold weather, a  precaution I take is to bring the package inside, and put it on the workbench in my trainroom, and either let the package cool down, or warm up for several hours, maybe overnight, letting the package reach room temperature before I open it up and test run it.

I do the same thing. Rapid changes in temperature are more risky than heat or cold alone. And, of course, excessive humidity is a real problem with delicate electronics. I maintain a 50-60% relative humidity in my trainroom/office year round.

@POTRZBE posted:

It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

It can be the heat. I used to have my trains set up in the garage. Matchbox cars melted wheel ruts into an MPC car carrier when it got up to about 125 in my garage.

I wouldn’t worry about the UPS truck getting that hot. As long as you are home to bring the package in it should be fine.

I don't personally think that there's a huge risk for the 3-5 day duration of shipping via UPS.  For longer-term storage in an uncontrolled environment, I would worry about plastic bodies first, die-cast metal second, and the electronics last.

It gets up to about 140F in a closed automobile or SUV.  (The trunk of a sedan might actually be cooler because without windows there is no "greenhouse effect.")  Plastic bodies could easily warp at those temperatures.  And also fade if they are exposed to direct sunlight, such as rolling stock stored in the back of an SUV for several weeks between train shows.  In very cold temps, the plastic might become brittle.  If it shrinks more than the metal frame, you have the risk of cracking at the screw holes.

Next, die-castings.  We've all seen examples or photos of zinc pest, i.e., intra-granular corrosion.  It's well-known that the process is hastened by humidity and moisture, especially if any zinc is exposed due to paint loss.  After all, zinc tabs are used as a sacrificial anode on outboard motors.  I wonder whether there is any substance we could put in with, or near the trains that would absorb the moisture, sacrificing itself to keep it away from our precious die-cast metal!  Brass may tarnish in a damp environment, and it may corrode in the presence of ammonia.  But it's leagues ahead of die-cast in terms of long-term corrosion resistance.

Another class of risk is when the plastic or metal is in contact with styrofoam, plastic bubble wrap, newsprint, etc.  Heat and moisture could easily cause some type of transfer and compromise the paint and markings.

Regarding electronics: I've had both trains and A/V equipment that were literally FLOODED--drowned, submerged (in fresh water, albeit contaminated with minerals) and once dried out they operated normally.  A musician I know plays his $3000 synth keyboard in gigs on a beach in Florida with only a tent to keep the sun and rain off of it.  He's done this for years with no apparent ill effect.  The circuit boards in the synth are not potted or sealed; the board isn't rated for outdoor use but he does it anyhow and seems to get away with it.  So I'm not convinced that the electronics are really that delicate.  Furthermore, the electronics in our trains are easily replaced, often with something better, and in the future, perhaps something better still!  My $.02.

@Ted S posted:

I wonder whether there is any substance we could put in with, or near the trains that would absorb the moisture, sacrificing itself to keep it away from our precious die-cast metal!

You don't know about Silica Gel? It's what is shipped in every new train product in the little packets. If you buy the renewable indicator type, you can see when it's time to bake them to remove the moisture so you can use them again.

@Ted S posted:

Regarding electronics: I've had both trains and A/V equipment that were literally FLOODED--drowned, submerged (in fresh water, albeit contaminated with minerals) and once dried out they operated normally.  A musician I know plays his $3000 synth keyboard in gigs on a beach in Florida with only a tent to keep the sun and rain off of it.  He's done this for years with no apparent ill effect.  The circuit boards in the synth are not potted or sealed; the board isn't rated for outdoor use but he does it anyhow and seems to get away with it.  So I'm not convinced that the electronics are really that delicate.  Furthermore, the electronics in our trains are easily replaced, often with something better, and in the future, perhaps something better still!  My $.02.

In the past, PCB manufacturing used acid based flux and did a water wash during the wave soldering process, the boards survived fine.

I also rescued half a dozen TMCC locomotives that had been submerged in the Sandy floods for days and then left for several months before I got them.  I got virtually all the electronics working by simply giving them a fresh water bath and then baking them in a 170F oven for a few hours.  Any that showed rust on the leadframes of the IC's or other components got a trip through the Evaporust bath before the fresh water bath.

@Ted S posted:

I don't personally think that there's a huge risk for the 3-5 day duration of shipping via UPS.  For longer-term storage in an uncontrolled environment, I would worry about plastic bodies first, die-cast metal second, and the electronics last.

I've had resin kit cars warp in the space/time of painting them outside and then bringing them inside - 30-45 min heat. Learned to not bring them in quickly to avoid that sharp transition.  Step-wise transition cooling down reduces warping potential....

It gets up to about 140F in a closed automobile or SUV.  (The trunk of a sedan might actually be cooler because without windows there is no "greenhouse effect.")  Plastic bodies could easily warp at those temperatures.  And also fade if they are exposed to direct sunlight, such as rolling stock stored in the back of an SUV for several weeks between train shows.  In very cold temps, the plastic might become brittle.  If it shrinks more than the metal frame, you have the risk of cracking at the screw holes.

You might test that out - put a thermometer in the truck.  Why you would store trains in an vehicle for weeks is questionable practice.  No more than overnight has been my practice.

Next, die-castings.  We've all seen examples or photos of zinc pest, i.e., intra-granular corrosion.  It's well-known that the process is hastened by humidity and moisture, especially if any zinc is exposed due to paint loss.  After all, zinc tabs are used as a sacrificial anode on outboard motors.  I wonder whether there is any substance we could put in with, or near the trains that would absorb the moisture, sacrificing itself to keep it away from our precious die-cast metal!  Brass may tarnish in a damp environment, and it may corrode in the presence of ammonia.  But it's leagues ahead of die-cast in terms of long-term corrosion resistance.

Silica gel might be the easiest to access, but it's extremely easy to compromise it's moisture capacity. Most if not all of those little packets enclosed in shipping boxes are well past their use by date.  Reactivating it really requires a vacuum oven.....better desiccant is Drierite and with the cobalt color indicator.

Another class of risk is when the plastic or metal is in contact with styrofoam, plastic bubble wrap, newsprint, etc.  Heat and moisture could easily cause some type of transfer and compromise the paint and markings.

Contact with anything other than acid free soft paper is problem but usually over time.

Regarding electronics: I've had both trains and A/V equipment that were literally FLOODED--drowned, submerged (in fresh water, albeit contaminated with minerals) and once dried out they operated normally.  A musician I know plays his $3000 synth keyboard in gigs on a beach in Florida with only a tent to keep the sun and rain off of it.  He's done this for years with no apparent ill effect.  The circuit boards in the synth are not potted or sealed; the board isn't rated for outdoor use but he does it anyhow and seems to get away with it.  So I'm not convinced that the electronics are really that delicate.  Furthermore, the electronics in our trains are easily replaced, often with something better, and in the future, perhaps something better still!  My $.02.

I rarely worry about electronics in my trains - there's just a DC motor in there......

@mwb posted:

Silica gel might be the easiest to access, but it's extremely easy to compromise it's moisture capacity. Most if not all of those little packets enclosed in shipping boxes are well past their use by date.  Reactivating it really requires a vacuum oven.....better desiccant is Drierite and with the cobalt color indicator.

I see tons of places suggesting an oven at 200F for an hour or more to reactivate silica gel.  That includes plenty of places that actually sell them as a main business.  I use DRY & DRY brand desiccant packets with indicator, they change from orange to dark green when saturated.

I'm curious where the requirement for a vacuum oven comes from, that's the first time I've ever heard of it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I see tons of places suggesting an oven at 200F for an hour or more to reactivate silica gel.  That includes plenty of places that actually sell them as a main business.  I use DRY & DRY brand desiccant packets with indicator, they change from orange to dark green when saturated.

I'm curious where the requirement for a vacuum oven comes from, that's the first time I've ever heard of it.

I maintained a bunch of microwave comm sites when I was gainfully employed.  Dry air was used and pumped into the waveguide to keep out moisture.  A pair of clear Lexan cylinders  that contained silica gel granules was all that was used to dry the compressed air that flowed through them.  When the silica changed color from blue to pink, I dumped out the pink stuff, replaced it with dried out blue stuff,  took the pink back to the break room in the field office, put it in the toaster over and baked them back to blue.  I did that for over 25 years, and the fellow before me had been doing it since the late 1950's.  About the only thing I had to do was add in a bit more silica gel granules  for the amount that was lost in transferring it back and forth.   After all that gear went to the scrap pile, the new stuff had a compressor with a heater type air dryer, no more baking the gel.

@Allan Miller posted:

I do the same thing. Rapid changes in temperature are more risky than heat or cold alone. And, of course, excessive humidity is a real problem with delicate electronics. I maintain a 50-60% relative humidity in my trainroom/office year round.

I installed a thermostat years ago that not only keeps temp steady but will override the temp setting to keep the humidity between 50-58 percent.

I save all the silica gel packs that come with items I get, but I have made my own.

You use silica gel cat liter and empty tea bags that you fill and fold over the top and staple.

Both of those can be purchased locally.

Downside:  If you do a sloppy job stapling it it can get all over the place.

John

I always view those silica packets as being for shipping only and toss them in the trash when I open something. I guess it’s a good thing I live in the desert.