How did Steam Locomotive crews deal with extreme Summer time heat?

And, they also had to deal with EXTREME COLD!!!  Can you imagine snow service in the mountains of Montana?  They didn't have all-weather cabs for years and years.  God what a life!  Terrible.  

Bryan Smith posted:

How did Steam Locomotive crews deal with extreme summer time heat?
The obvious answer, "Not very well"

Well, not really the right answer. From my own experiences, the absolute WORSE heat conditions effecting the human body are very high heat, and VERY high humidity. Even in desert heat conditions with ambient temps of 102 to 108 degrees (temps in the cabe exceeding 140 degrees), the dry humidity, i.e. well under 20% down to less than 10%, the key is to constantly drink water (now in the modern era we have the Gatorade & Poweraid drinks which help add electrolytes, but back in the old days, all they had were salt tablets). Also, proper clothing, i.e. 100% cotton, to cover ones arms & legs.

In my air conditioned office, I wonder if any of these crews suffered from 'Hot Weather Injuries", like heat exhaustion or worse heat stroke?

Yes, it could and has happened if one doesn't know how to deal with the heat.

Did these crews, 'back in the day' carry some sort of water cooler with them?

Yes. Canvas bags were very common, which tended to slowly evaporate water through the canvas, thus keeping it somewhat cool. 

Were insulated non-metallic coolers even available them? 

No, besides there wouldn't have been room for them in the cab.

If they did have a cooler, where did they carry it so that the water did not heat up from the engine and where the engine crews could easily get a drink of water?

Hang the canvas bag outside the cab window, or on the front of the tender within easy reach.

Would the engine crews ever dip a drink of water from the tender

Absolutely NOT! Tender water is treated with boiler water chemicals. 

or maybe from a faucet at a water stop?

That would depend on if that water faucet was potable water.

Would the engine crews ever decide to stop their train at place where a Dairy Queen type restaurant was super close to the tracks, so that crew could quickly walk there, order a refreshing drink or snack and quickly get back to their train?

Don't think that there were "Dairy Queens" back then, but depending on whether the train was a local, or a fast merchandise freight, if one got stopped at a signal or in a siding for a meet, and there was some sort of grocery store across from the track, well then any port in a storm. 

John C. posted:

And, they also had to deal with EXTREME COLD!!! 

Actually cold is a bit easier to deal with, when one has the proper layered clothing. With the heat, one can only remove so much clothing.

Can you imagine snow service in the mountains of Montana?  They didn't have all-weather cabs for years and years.  God what a life!  Terrible.  

Would the engine crews ever decide to stop their train at place where a Dairy Queen type restaurant was super close to the tracks, so that crew could quickly walk there, order a refreshing drink or snack and quickly get back to their train?

There was a spur line running though our town that passed right next to a local convenience shop that sold lots of edible treats such as coffee and donuts, ice cream, hot dogs, sandwiches and the like. It was very common to see the short train stopped so the crew could grab something. 
The tracks passed over the main road through town on a bridge. The crew would always wave to any children that happened to be around as they went by.
This was from th mid-1980's until the line was closed. Its a bike path now.

Bryan Smith posted:

Would the engine crews ever decide to stop their train at place where a Dairy Queen type restaurant was super close to the tracks, so that crew could quickly walk there, order a refreshing drink or snack and quickly get back to their train?

 

 

Unfortunately, the rise of Dairy Queen and similar chains coincided with the growth of the highway culture, and also during the decline of steam engine usage and railroads in general.

When the USA entered WWII in December 1941, there were less than 10 DQs in the United States.
Steam ruled most RRs, but EMD's FTs had already proven themselves.

In 1947, there were 100 DQs nationwide, mass production of diesels are starting to impact on locomotive fleets.

By 1950, there 1,446 DQs, the last steam engines are produced.

1955 saw 2,600 DQs operating nationwide, steam is going fast or is already gone from many US RRs, excepting a few strongholds like N&W,IC,GTW,NKP, etc.

It is somewhat unlikely that a DQ was convenient to a passing steam engine crew during those years, DQs tend to be native to major highways, not railroad mainlines or facilities.

Also remember that a train crew, with rare exception, must follow signals, rulebooks, and dispatcher instructions, and really can't decide to just stop their train unless its an emergency.

I call it Custom 55 air conditioning. Windows down, arm out the window. I can’t imagine being a stoker, though.

The most extreme hot-weather railroading story I've read was in the Sept. 1987 TRAINS, entitled "Just another day on the railroad", by Jordan Adams.

 It described a typical day on a major Western RR, as the author and his co-workers deal with riding in an non AC - equipped caboose with a non-working fridge, few opening windows, 95 degree heat, and coal dust blowing off the train cars. All this while playing stop and go on a busy mainline.
The only relief came when they were able to ride the helpers that were attached to their caboose.
While steam engine crews have suffered much from hot weather, the caboose crews throughout rail history had to endure as much, if not more.

While taking videos along the NS Pgh line I saw a train stop on a mainline and the conductor went for pizza. It was a long wait, I don't think he called ahead. I was also closer to Pgh when a train stopped and a crew member went in to a Sub shop. I think the dispatcher knew what was happening.

ToddModel posted:

I call it Custom 55 air conditioning. Windows down, arm out the window. I can’t imagine being a stoker, though.

What do you mean by, "I can't imagine being a stoker"?

Being in the haystack was pretty hot work too on a summer day in the midwest.

I recall seeing a train stop at a trackside resturant .A seaboard system empty hopper train A sd40-2 and a gp40-2 stopped short of a railroad crossing.The crew got off and went inside rons.The name of the resturant.This was on a saturday morning.I was across the street at a store.As to steam crews I was at the national railroad museum in hamlet nc.I asked a old railroader he tolded me.They had a curtain that would close off the back of the locomotive cab.During the winter time I think they came with something/To deal with the summer time heat.

wb47 posted:

Being in the haystack was pretty hot work too on a summer day in the midwest.

Pales to insignificance when compared to working through a long tunnel, on the second engine of a doubleheader (steam locomotives of course)!

seaboardm2 posted:

I recall seeing a train stop at a trackside resturant .A seaboard system empty hopper train A sd40-2 and a gp40-2 stopped short of a railroad crossing.The crew got off and went inside rons.The name of the resturant.This was on a saturday morning.I was across the street at a store.As to steam crews I was at the national railroad museum in hamlet nc.I asked a old railroader he tolded me.They had a curtain that would close off the back of the locomotive cab.

What does this have to do with the subject title?

You suck it up and try to survive the day by switching off, drinking continuously, keeping wet towel on your neck, etc.  Sitting still is often way worse than moving, and the cab can get positively beastly when stopped on a still humid day.  It’s not at all unusual to drink over two gallons of water while on duty, and not pee once.

The worst day I every had was over 100 degrees, with a dew point of 82 degrees on #475, a deckless engine with a cab full of boiler.  My fireman and I switched off every hour, and his wife brought him a large cooler half filled with ice cubes and water, and two terrycloth towels to soak and hang over our necks.  It was only a six-hour shift, but I was panting like a dog and red as a cherry when relieved by the second shift.

There was no point in feeling any bearings for heat because they were all too hot to touch, as was the end beam when I touched it by way of comparison.  I was home and showered before I stopped panting, and the weatherman said that the heat index was 132 degrees!  How people fired coal burners in tropical locations is beyond me.

Canvas water bags are fairly effective at keeping water cool on hot days in the west, not so much so here in the humid east.  I read that the PRR supplied crews with a steel water bucket that the fireman placed on top of a block of ice in the tender locker as he was getting the engine ready.

Jim Wrinn has a good technique in that he filled the front pockets of his overalls with ice cubes when fired at NCTM on hot days.  I’ve done that a few times and it does make a difference.

Cold weather can be just as nasty, but you can add layers, and the backhead is a handy place to dry your socks.

These were real men.

Ray

my father worked in a steel mill. Once he took me into the mill. On a hot summer day, standing next to an open hearth furnace I dont think it gets much worse. I laterally thought I was in hell.  

I believe some steam engine crews had water jugs. I saw a Crock labeled for the L&NE sell at auction in the 80's , it looked like it was 2-3 gal capacity.  Never seen another like it.

To paraphrase a common phrase I believe the answer is, "They sucked it up buttercup". 

I often think of what it must have been like to fire and operate the Camelbacks where the engineer sat next to the boiler and above the running board while the fireman barely had a little bit of roof while shoveling into the wide Wooten firebox.  During the dog days of summer on the humid Jersey shore I can think that this was nothing but miserable, but then people at the time understood the value of work more than most these days.

Even in the predominantly oil fired southwest where I live now, I can't imagine the temperature in the cab when the Arizona deserts are regularly 110 and higher.  Of course anyone who lived here prior to pre 1940's air conditioning were hearty souls as the common evaporative coolers stopped feeling comfortable when the humidity hit a whopping 20% during our summer monsoon season.   

The operators of a hand fired locomotive such as PRR 460 must have been painful to operate back in the day with 100+ degree weather. I think that anyone who had to or has to operate one of these beasts in summer deserves as much respect as possible, especially modern firemen and engineers who do this for our enjoyment.

Would the engine crews ever dip a drink of water from the tender or maybe from a faucet at a water stop?
Would the engine crews ever decide to stop their train at place where a Dairy Queen type restaurant was super close to the tracks, so that crew could quickly walk there, order a refreshing drink or snack and quickly get back to their train?

I drive along the BNSF main through Anaheim and Yorba Linda a few times a day. There is a siding near the Anaheim/Yorba Linda border and quite often trains parked. Just by coincidence the loco's are parked right across the street from Del Taco 

Steve

I actually had it relatively easy when running the streetcar at the Fort Smith Trolley Museum in summer.  The Fort Smith History Museum has an air-conditioned re-creation of a drugstore soda fountain, so I'd just wait there, sipping a glass bottle of Coke, until a customer or two would show up wanting a ride...   

Mitch 

Here's how Sheldon kept cool!

Kelly Anderson posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

I often think of what it must have been like to fire and operate the Camelbacks where the engineer sat next to the boiler and above the running board while the fireman barely had a little bit of roof while shoveling into the wide Wooten firebox.

Even in the predominantly oil fired southwest where I live now, I can't imagine the temperature in the cab when the Arizona deserts are regularly 110 and higher.  

Winter would be when that it sucked to be a camelback fireman.  33 degree wind driven rain, while rolling at 50 per, with nothing but a steam gauge for shelter, no thanks!

Regarding the second part of your quote, as long as you are rolling at a decent pace, the cab is only a very few degrees warmer than the ambient air temperature,

Obviously you have never been in the cab of SP 4449, UP 844, nor UP 3985 when working at track speeds, in the desert southwest, or even eastern Oregon. With trackside hot box detectors regularly reading out temperatures of 100, to 106 to 108, the temp inside the cab, according to our handy little magnetic thermometers was always over 130 degrees, even at 60+ MPH. Yes, the humidity was very, VERY low (less than 15%), so you really didn't feel all that uncomfortable, but you sure had to drink constantly. 

not much different than driving a car w/o AC (which I grant you isn't any picnic in weather like that). 

Except your automobile does NOT have a huge steam boiler right there in front of you!

It's going slow or sitting in still air that sucks.  Being on a Phoenix switch crew in July, not good!

Just my opinion but, I'll take the "Phoenix switch crew in July" any day one a "switch crew" in either Houston, or New Orleans, or any other yard in the southeastern states. Temps at 96 degrees with humidity at 90% or higher is the worst.

Don't underestimate the misery of high humidity.  110 in the desert southwest is no less comfortable than 85 or 90 here in the mid-Atlantic. 

Yes it is, in my opinion. I'll take the "hot & dry" any time over "hot & humid".

The famous boomer Earl Knoob who worked here for a couple of years declared to me that summer in Strasburg was more miserable than Texas, and he would know, having spent several years at the Texas State RR, which is in the more humid side of the Lone Star state.

I drove across the good ole US of A. in the summer and through New Mexico and Arizona it was HOT. Dry or otherwise. Humidity is stifling too but we have endured over the years. People are spoiled today.

Kelly Anderson posted:

..... The worst day I every had was over 100 degrees, with a dew point of 82 degrees on #475, …..

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Dept.

Very close to that this holiday weekend in Strasburg. I imagine that firing #90 will be no picnic. Still, they love what they do.

jim pastorius posted:

I drove across the good ole US of A. in the summer and through New Mexico and Arizona it was HOT. Dry or otherwise. Humidity is stifling too but we have endured over the years. People are spoiled today.

I assume you're home and car aren't air conditioned or you rough it with the air off?

I remember working in a warehouse that wasn't air conditioned back in the early 70's.  Not even the break room.  It wasn't fun.  Even the place I retired from, the shop isn't air conditioned.  Fans only move hot air around.  On 90+ days, productivity dropped noticeably.

My dad worked in a generating plant as a boiler mechanic, I'm amazed he survived the brutally hot days.

During the deadly heat wave in Chicago in 1995, there were 739 heat related deaths over 5 days.  The coroner was so backed up, they had to store the bodies in refrigerated trailers.

With Chicago's mid to upper 90's and high humidity levels due today, I'd rather be spoiled.

Rusty

I ,remember working in a warehouse that wasn't air conditioned back in the early 70's.  Not even the break room.  It wasn't fun.  Even the place I retired from, the shop isn't air conditioned.  Fans only move hot air around.  On 90+ days, productivity dropped noticeably.

My dad worked in a generating plant as a boiler mechanic, I'm amazed he survived the brutally hot days.

During the deadly heat wave in Chicago in 1995, there were 739 heat related deaths over 5 days.  The coroner was so backed up they had to store the bodies in refrigerated trailers.

With Chicago's mid to upper 90's and high humidity levels due today, I'd rather be spoiled.

Rusty

Sounds a lot like the Falk Corp in Milwaukee during the drought in the 1990s. No air conditioning, we opened the overhead doors and as many windows as would open, we had fans to move the hot air over us. After 8 or 10 hours in the shop we would head home and spend the rest of the daylight hours watering our freshly planted shrubs and trees at our home. Thankfully we had air conditioning in our home, we could sleep at night.

It was rough but we survived, hot and humid here today, feels like is 105 F.

Ray

They were REAL MEN!! They had RESPONSIBILITIES and they took care of them. Almost all had a well defined sense of right and wrong. They were tough as nails and could kick the living crap out of what seems to pass for a man these days! Uh-oh there I go again. Have a great weekend, Scott.

scott5011 posted:

They were REAL MEN!! They had RESPONSIBILITIES and they took care of them. Almost all had a well defined sense of right and wrong. They were tough as nails and could kick the living crap out of what seems to pass for a man these days! Uh-oh there I go again. Have a great weekend, Scott.

Not to mention, throughout my "learning years" at the end of the steam era, i.e. the late 1940s through the late 1950s, I could count on only one hand the number of over-weight Engineers and/or Firemen I met and learned from. There VERY few "fat guys" in engine service during the steam days.

scott5011 posted:

They were REAL MEN!! They had RESPONSIBILITIES and they took care of them....

Agreed.

We are becoming a nation of overly safety conscious wimps.

Kelly Anderson posted:

 

  The famous boomer Earl Knoob who worked here for a couple of years declared to me that summer in Strasburg was more miserable than Texas, and he would know, having spent several years at the Texas State RR, which is in the more humid side of the Lone Star state.

I have pictures that I should show that show how he felt being on #90 in the summer versus #475. 

Also you need to take in to account that back then they didn't have A/C so they where use to exstream heat better than any of us are. We got soft you may say because of modern conveniences. 

It was completely different back then, from what it is now.  Yes I know some ran as late as early 60's But even then A/C wasn't a item in most houses, more like just a few. Now it more common for those who lived in the south ( I'm guessing also places like CA., AZ, NM, etc ) 

I think they wiped their foredheads with those red handkerchiefs they had in their back pockets and kept on working.

Seriously, covering exposed parts with cotton clothes as mentioned above helps, the guys did that when I worked in the pipe Plant and they had to stand next 2200 degree pipe to put the plugs in for the mandrel to make Seamless pipe.   they work winter helmet liners down over their ears too, drank lots of water and took salt tablets.  

The water crock on a steamer I think was common.   I have a model of PRR Mogul and it has a casting of a "cooler" or crock with a spigot/spout on the top of the tender deck at the cab end.    It was just a metal can without insulation most likely and also appears to be 3-5 gallons.

Houston forecast for today.  94 with heat indices could reach 105.

UP 844, UP 3985, SP/AFT 4449, and AFT 610 have operated here in such conditions.  Plus AFT 4449 was on an Amtrak special, and there was steam in the cab from broken flues after 4449 went through a crossover switch too fast because the ICG pilots forgot to tell the 4449 engeneer the day before.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Houston forecast for today.  94 with heat indices could reach 105.

UP 844, UP 3985, SP/AFT 4449, and AFT 610 have operated here in such conditions.  Plus AFT 4449 was on an Amtrak special, and there was steam in the cab from broken flues

Sorry but, that is NOT correct! We a little "steam in the cab" from a leaking stay bolt cap, located directly in front of the Fireman. That was corrected easily, once we located exactly which one it was.

after 4449 went through a crossover switch too fast because the ICG pilots forgot to tell the 4449 engeneer the day before.

Not quite true either.

Kelly Anderson posted:

It’s not at all unusual to drink over two gallons of water while on duty, and not pee once.

 

Absolutely true. It goes in your mouth, and comes out through your pores.

I had to hang a candy thermometer in our cab--the thermometers you get at the hardware stores only go to 120 degrees. Hot Water is right--it gets up to about 140, typically.

When we shut down our oil burner, all the latent heat in the firebox and boiler seeps back into the cab. Our cab is fairly enclosed, so it gets VERY hot after shut down. Our engineer once left his radio in the cab about and didn't remember until maybe 5 minutes after I shut the cab doors. He opened the cab door and retrieved the radio, and looked quickly at the thermometer--it had risen to 210 degrees!

LOTS of fluid and salt tablets! At TVRM, we used Gaterade, Lemonade and ice water. You pretty much sweated out the liquid, and did not have to relieve your bladder very often! When the outside temperature was 95 degrees, it was well over 110 in that cab with a HOT coal fire! Usually, some heat exhaustion symptoms would set in after the sixth round trip when we had to service the engine! Handling that heavy Alemite grease gun was a chore after a day of firing!

Seems no one has mentioned the general living conditions during the steam era. It isn’t like they got off work and got into their air conditioned cars and drove to their air conditioned houses to kick off their shoes and relax in front of the TV.

Locomotive workers acclimated to the heat as ambient temperatures rose into the summer months. Also, the typical worker was a much lighter body weight than we are today. They would be naturally better suited for adaptation to higher temperatures. Not to mention it was a much tougher generation, which made for a much tougher man.

I heartily agree with your statements! I was 44 during the 11 weeks of summer in 1984 when I hand-fired ex Southern Railway #722 and it was physically exhausting! We did six 6-mile round trips, with a turntable on one end of the line and a wye with spring switches on the other. Jumping on and off to align a switch or to check the points or to couple the engine back on the train after turning added to the labor. 36 miles was really nothing compared to main line running at track speeds back in the day, but it was still a workout! Those guys in the steam period really earned their pay!