How does WBB smoke compare to Lionel and MTH?

WBB smoke units are far from spectacular, if that's what you're asking.  They use Seuthe smoke units, basically a heating chamber and not fan-driven nor do they use a plunger to generate puffs so it tends to just come out as a stream.  Smoke volume is anemic at best, and tends to "splatter" more than Lionel or MTH.  You only want to use Seuthe-compatible smoke fluid like what WBB supplies, or JT's products.  Other brands of smoke fluid can clog the unit.

The word anemic comes to mind.  They are very old fashioned, as John Korling said, not piston puffing it out, no fans blowing it.  So it tends to drift out when the loco is not moving or do a bit better (be drawn out by air flow draught) when moving, but it is nothing like the really good MTH or Lionel units (mid and high end units).  Some Lionel and MTh starter sets have pretty good smoke, by the way. 

MTH is the champ, followed by Lionel fan driven smoke units.  WBB isn't even on the same planet.

John, just wondering here. Why is mth's smoke units better than lionel? They both are made and designed about the same it seems. Is it that mth uses two resistors as apposed to lionels one? if so they must have a patent on that aspect of the unit or you would think lionel would have added two by now.Or does mth use a bigger fan motor? just thought maybe you would know.I also agree that mth is slightly a notch better! The smoke seems thicker and whiter comming out than even in lionel's recent smoke units. Dito on sueth units also. They are ok for stationary things like buildings and such, but should not be in steam engines! Come on bachmann get with it!!

I really can't say, the designs are basically identical.  All I know is that my MTH stuff consistently will smoke me out of the room.  Some Lionel stuff is pretty good, but it just doesn't come up to the MTH smoke units.

 

I don't think it's the motors, they look the same to me.  It could be the two smoke resistors give them added heating surface, I can't say.  I wonder if anyone has stuck two resistors in a Lionel unit to see if that makes a difference?

My mth locos can only run one at a time due to the immense smoke output. I have no lionel fan units. I have the lionel "puffing" units and my post war locos put out more smoke then it does. I think the wbb ones are similar units to the lionel starter set units

I had to install a bathroom exhaust fan in the ceiling of my train room just for the MTH units. Also LGB smoke fluid works fine in Bachmann Seuthe units also.

I think that WBB smoke units work better than the ones in Lionel starter sets. A disadvantage is that Seuthe units spit out smoke fluid.

I bought a Lionel RTR set that had a 0-8-0 that really smokes well, so some starters do smoke nicely.  The disadvantage of the Seuthe units is annoying but if you are carefully not to overfill them this seldom happens.  Unfortunately, that is annoying because you always underfill it and are having to refill it frequently.  

 

As to the MTH units smoking better, I've often wondered if the reason is that MTH wires a higher and constant voltage feed to their smoke units.  Someone here might know . . .

Some time ago, someone posted the PS/1 MTH smoke unit schematic here.  Here it is again.  You probably have to click on it to expand it enough to read.

 

I can't remember where, but I remember reading an article a few years back comparing MTH and Lionel smoke units. It said MTH smoke units operated at a higher temperature in order to vaporize whatever MTH uses in it's smoke fluid. The article strongly suggested not using Lionel smoke fluid in an MTH smoke unit because it was more volital. Using MTH fluid in a Lionel smoker was also discouraged. as the lower termperature wouldn't vaporize it properly, so the unit could gunk up.

 

I got curious after reading the article, and did some temperture measurements of the top of some Lionel and MTH fan driven smoke units, and sure enough the MTH units were generally hotter than the Lionel units. I wrote down the numbers at the time, but didn't save them. I do remember it was a significant difference.

 

 

MTH was using LVTS smoke fluid and bought then out many years ago with all there inventory. I'm sure there using the same formula to produce new batches. I found that the LGB smoke fluid is the easiest to wipe off with no oily residue after running one of my Williams steamers with Seuthe smoke units.

I use JT Megasteam in all of them, and MTH still wins.   Note that I do get acceptable smoke from the fan driven Legacy stuff, it's just not quite up to the volume of smoke MTH puts out.  FWIW, there are a couple of MTH locomotives that I can't run the smoke for long periods, it creates a haze that's hard to see through!

Do you have DCS installed on your layout?  The PS2 units have adjustable smoke volume that you can manage with the handheld.

I have a couple of PS/1 locomotives that were converted to TMCC, I don't have the same level of control with those.  Yes, I have DCS, and the PS/2 locomotives are not an issue.

Williams--what smoke? If you see any appreciable amount of smoke check you boards and motors.  You don't buy Williams for smoke. You buy them for their robust operation. If you do use smoke fluid in Williams like the ohers have said use only Williams or LGB smoke fluid.

 

Al W.

As near as I can tell what makes one fan driven smoke unit produce more then another when all componet issue are equal is the voltage level driving the heating element.

That is why Lionel starter sets only produce smoke when the AC voltage is high. In the MTH engines they have a constant voltage board that keeps the element voltage around 6 VDC no matter what speed the engine is running in.

 

See Johns drawing above.

I think the dual elements in the MTH smoke unit have a lot to do with the superior output. The wick is sandwiched between the two elements, guaranteeing a lot of direct contact with the heating element. That said, Lionel units since they started RS5 have had the smoke output controllable from the handheld remote control, and when bumped up to High they put out plenty of smoke. My Hiawatha Atlantic was the first Lionel engine I ever had with decent smoke. The older units will produce pretty good smoke if you do the modifications shown in the Mike Reagan video. I've done a couple and they work well. 

 

The Seuthe smoke units actually smoke pretty well at higher speeds, as the additional airflow generates more smoke. However, air currents can affect where it goes. I've seen smoke streams alongside the engine rather than above it, because an air current was pushing the smoke down. A drawback of the Seuthe unit is that it has to be refilled at very short intervals. 

That's the reason I had a bathroom exhaust fan installed in my train room and it also makes it smell like cedar outside when i'm running the trains