The Vision Line products are very nice (with pricing to match) and are definitely a premium offering. I have a modern layout with diesels only so not much VL product for me (I missed the die cast ES44's, and I don't want one bad enough to pay today's selling prices). However, I might be in for some VL rolling stock or accessories someday (if they are ever made). Maybe even a diesel engine if it is something I really like and they offer another one. The VL items are not for everyone, but I am certainly glad Lionel makes them for those that do want them. It just adds more options to the already great selection of O gauge products we have available today.
Rich Battista posted:... I feel we are fortunate as O gauge hobbyist to have a manufacturer continually invest in and produce some of the best O gauge models ever! So I'm going to "get while the gettins good!" Because from the sounds of it, its not going to last long.
Bill_R posted:The high end market will always exist even though the air is thin ...
Lionel is filling a market, don't take it personal if your not in that market. its just business
And sometimes the market "sweet spot" changes, and manufacturers adjust their products accordingly.
Back in the 1990's Sony offered an ultra high-end car audio system as part of its Mobile ES line of aftermarket car stereo components. This was their XES offering. No expense was spared in its research, development, and production. And yes... it was priced accordingly for those blessed with the financial means to "afford" it. XES was pretty much an "If you need to ask the price, then it's not for you" type product. In short, between the components themselves and the labor to install an XES system in a high-end luxury car, one could easily spend close to the cost of a small economy car in those days. 
Yet industry insiders often spoke tongue-in-cheek that they doubted Sony ever even made profits with those XES systems. But in the mobile audio community, those XES systems were considered show-stopping "statement pieces", by which all other mobile audio components were measured. I had one, and I can speak first-hand of its unparalleled merits. XES was truly best in its class.
Where are Sony's XES products today? Well Sony's entire Mobile ES line was discontinued almost a decade ago. 
As the technology treadmill advanced, many of the XES industry-leading features had worked their way into the more standard offerings that -- generally speaking -- are now available as factory-installed "upgrade packages" directly from today's luxury car manufactures. Perhaps changes in the executive board room also had something to do with the disbanding of Sony's Mobile ES product line. Without somebody in an executive capacity to champion "money-no-object" products, those types of offerings tend to not last forever.
In all likelihood, XES -- along with Sony's entire Mobile ES product line -- served its purpose as "moment in time" statement pieces. But the world has moved on. So there's essentially no NEED for an XES or Mobile ES brand anymore. The WOW-factor had disappeared, and one could argue that today's best factory upgrade packages are "close enough" to XES. (But I'll still admit that for audio purists, nothing will ever replace the performance level of true XES components. In the XES heyday, you felt like you were riding with NASA components in the trunk of your car!)
That's pretty close to how I view Lionel's VisonLine products, which were essentially Jerry Calabrese's re-branding of what were formerly JLC products. To me, JLC and VisionLine are one in the same. I love the idea of what the JLC or VisionLine products stand for. I just can't help but wonder if the VisionLine brand has lost its relevance to those who can afford it or want it today. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford them -- that's not the issue. I'm just not WOW-ed by them (anymore). And Lionel's bloated pricing of products that don't have the "wow factor" anymore certainly doesn't help.
Look... I'm an engineer at heart. So I can certainly appreciate the technology behind Lionel's depleting coal-load feature on the VisionLine Big Boy. But it was a feature that didn't do anything for me, and most casual observers won't even notice it unless you run the thing in demo mode and point it out to them. Enhanced steam blow-down effects? And fabulous industry-leading sound effects? Now we're talking about cool features that model train enthusiasts as well as casual visitors can and do enjoy.
I want VisionLine products to actually stand for something ULTRA innovative. And if they can't be that, then it's time to retire the product line. I don't want VisionLine to be a label that Lionel slaps on a product just to increase the price by another $500 or more... and the latest VisionLine GG-1 almost falls into that category. Unless Lionel has some secret unannounced feature that they're planning on springing when the GG-1's are delivered, I'm not convinced a VisionLine GG-1 sits in the same league as a VisionLine Challenger. And then we have the Allegheny (from the 2016 Catalog), that's practically priced like a VisionLine product, but doesn't carry VisionLine features. 
Go figure... that certainly doesn't help matters.
David
I'm lucky enough to be able to afford them -- that's not the issue. I'm just not WOW-ed by them (anymore).Look... I'm an engineer at heart. So I can certainly appreciate the technology behind Lionel's depleting coal-load feature on the VisionLine Big Boy. But it was a feature that didn't do anything for me. Enhanced steam blow-down effects and fabulous industry-leading sound effects? Now we're talking about cool features that model train enthusiasts as well as casual visitors can and do enjoy.
Well said David. I always enjoy reading your insight.
Marc
Typical marketing. Certain "advanced" features usually work their way lower in the product line so the peons can get the "wow" factor. That gets a bigger return on engineering and tooling costs plus it is easy. Happens often. Maybe one reason Sony dropped the system was $$. They haven't done too well lately. As for technology- I have read and heard that the can motor that all these toys depend on was developed for the space program. I think there is a limit with what you can do with "advanced features" on a toy train that runs around on a track. Eventually you would be in to live steam with positive train control. Did old JL Cowen have these problems ?? Probably , plus he had to keep his company going through two, almost back to back, wars.
jim pastorius posted:Typical marketing. Certain "advanced" features usually work their way lower in the product line so the peons can get the "wow" factor. That gets a bigger return on engineering and tooling costs plus it is easy. Happens often. Maybe one reason Sony dropped the system was $$. They haven't done too well lately.
Depleting coal load is a nice feature I don't need. Given a choice between it or lowered cost I would easily do without it. Same for the sensor track. For me, costly, silly & complicated !!!! I'll never use it. What feature I do like best besides great sound is user controlled steam chest smoke on the MR #261 Mountain. Love swinging bell and whistle smoke ( when it works). Also, I think Lionel should make dynamo smoke on all higher cost steam a standard feature. It's as common a sight on steamers as stack smoke..
Joe
the depleting coal load is of no interest to me but the other Big Boy features certainly are.
Bob C.
Robert Coniglio posted:the depleting coal load is of no interest to me but the other Big Boy features certainly are.
Bob C.
What "other Big Boy features"?
Vision line pricing is way out of line. Don't care what they do. The newest catalog with those prices is the reason I gave it back to a seller at a show after looking through it. Nothing for me.
Quite happy buying on the secondary market.
I do wish Lionel their luck in any future endeavors.
I tend not to buy high end products, even when I can afford them. So I'm likely to drive a Honda, not a Tesla; buy LC+ locos, not Vision Line. But I will spring for a business class ticket on a 8-13 hour flight, because you cannot get that level of comfort and service for less money. It's very, very pricey, but I like to arrive not feeling like I've slept on the floor of a Yugo and can lay down and minimize the chances of an errant blood clot. The Honda is just as safe and reliable as a Tesla, and that's all I need. Same for the LC+ and Vision Line.
But I am delighted when I see a Vision Line or similar loco at a train show, and I hope Lionel continues to work at the high end to develop novel technologies and improved locomotives, both aesthetically and functionally.
Getting agitated about increasing prices one cannot or does not wish to afford just decreases the internal diameter of your coronary arteries and incites pity in others. Jealousy is even worse 
.
The stuff Tesla is doing is going to improve automobiles in general, in all likelihood, and what Lionel is doing is going to improve toy trains in general, in all likelihood. Predicting doom and gloom is a time honored practice, but largely pathetic and erroneous, since no one knows how it's all going to turn out. Maybe Vision Line will turn out like the postwar Electronic Set (ugh) or like TMCC, which changed the entire marketplace (yay). We shall see. Most likely somewhere in between.
HOT WATER
The other features in the Big Boy to which I reffered were the smoke and the sounds and the overall engineering that went into the thing.
Bob C.
Robert Coniglio posted:HOT WATER
The other features in the Big Boy to which I reffered were the smoke and the sounds and the overall engineering that went into the thing.
Bob C.
OK, but the "blow down" is not prototypical, and the "engineering" does NOT reflect any of the eight UP 4000 class locomotives that have been saved and are on display around the U.S..
Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
O.K., I ain't buyin'. All of this stuff is too rich for my blood.
"How Many Are Commited To Lionel Visionline Products No Matter What?"....you ask?
Tally my vote in the 'Nay' column.
....and I don't drink the Kool-Aid, either.
Whaaaa? Are you suggesting some form of iconic altruism for the sake of this hallowed hobby??
Yeah, right.
KD
No. I want a new 700E because of what it portrays, not because of its VL nature. I'll pay a buck or two for it, absolutely, but not what is still asked.
For those old enough and automobile-oriented enough, I would be far more interested in the Plymouth Road Runner philosophy being applied to these things.
If you don't know what I mean, ask your father.
I was out when the UP centipedes were released for just under 2k... now I will just buy what I can for a fair price that I can afford.
The UP VLBB was the only exception.
I did not think the price for future products would equal it or exceed.
J Daddy posted:I was out when the UP centipedes were released for just under 2k... now I will just buy what I can for a fair price that I can afford.
The UP VLBB was the only exception.
I did not think the price for future products would equal it or exceed.
If they make a Turbine Veranda, it will IMO.
Robert Coniglio posted:
HOT WATER
The other features in the Big Boy to which I reffered were the smoke and the sounds and the overall engineering that went into the thing.
Bob C.
OK, but the "blow down" is not prototypical, and the "engineering" does NOT reflect any of the eight UP 4000 class locomotives that have been saved and are on display around the U.S..
Wouldn't attempting to make the model 100% prototypical with all features true to life push the price past anything that anyone would be willing to pay? I realize the MSRP was high the way it is but.....the blow down not being true to the real thing?? The fact that they were able to incorporate that into the model is enough for me. I didn't buy one but that doesn't mean its not impressive.
As a 2 railer, I don't understand the premise of the subject of this thread. I understand the words, just not the logic or thinking. Why would anyone want to support one manufacturer system to the exclusion of all others?
In most scales, N, HO, O we rely on the NMRA standards and recommendations to insure that all mfg equipment is interchangeable. And it works. This is true of trucks, couplers, track gauge, and control systems. Yes, the throttles of various systems can't be interchanged, but the locos with their electronics can be. So there is lots of competition and new sound and control products are always coming out. And we can mixx and match them to best meet our hobby desires.
Hot Water posted:OK, but the "blow down" is not prototypical, and the "engineering" does NOT reflect any of the eight UP 4000 class locomotives that have been saved and are on display around the U.S..
I am not trying to be a smart astronaut but at the 23 second mark what is that called?
bigdodgetrain posted:Hot Water posted:OK, but the "blow down" is not prototypical, and the "engineering" does NOT reflect any of the eight UP 4000 class locomotives that have been saved and are on display around the U.S..
I am not trying to be a smart astronaut but at the 23 second mark what is that called?
From what I remember from what HW posted before, the VL BB blow down is different from what the real engine did. I think it was that blowdown
isn't correct for the Wilson separator which exhausts steam out of the top, forward of the cab, and exhausts dirty/sludgy water/steam out of a chute under the Engineer's side of the cab.
prrjim posted:As a 2 railer, I don't understand the premise of the subject of this thread. I understand the words, just not the logic or thinking. Why would anyone want to support one manufacturer system to the exclusion of all others?
In most scales, N, HO, O we rely on the NMRA standards and recommendations to insure that all mfg equipment is interchangeable. And it works. This is true of trucks, couplers, track gauge, and control systems. Yes, the throttles of various systems can't be interchanged, but the locos with their electronics can be. So there is lots of competition and new sound and control products are always coming out. And we can mixx and match them to best meet our hobby desires.
As a person with an IQ over 20, I don't understand the premise of the subject of your post. I understand the words, just not the point. The query here is about whether people are star-struck by a pricey designer branded toy - Vision by Lionel. Didn't see anything about exclusionary practices or Vision not having commonality with other 3-rail equipment.
I don't buy vision line just because it's vision line. I only buy it if I like it. For me, the vision line does not disappoint. I only have two vision line engines and they are both fantastic. My son has the big boy and I have the centipedes. I enjoy all of the features these engines have.
As for price, it is what it is. Don't expect Wal-Mart prices on feature packed engines. Trains last a long time and are fully repairable. You can't say that about most of today's products. I've been looking at New kitchen appliances. Average life expectancy is ten years now on a two thousand dollars refrigerator. That's just insane. Cell phones last about two years and they have issues. Our society has become a disposable one. I am glad that trains buck the system and can still last a long time. To me it's worth every penny.
the Lionel Big Boy is supposed to model the locomotives as originally delivered not as they are now configured. at least that is my understanding of it all.
Bob C.
Robert Coniglio posted:the Lionel Big Boy is supposed to model the locomotives as originally delivered not as they are now configured. at least that is my understanding of it all.
Bob C.
True, but that premise only applies to the appearance of the front pilot deck with the cooling coils. All the UP 4000 class locomotives came with the same Wilson Sludge Remover blowdown systems.
Joe Fermani posted:Trains last a long time and are fully repairable.
With respect, I rather disagree with this. These electronified marvels are trouble-prone.
The "fully repairable" claim is debatable. Of the 13 engines I have bought, five have required repairs in the first year of ownership. Getting them repaired is neither simple, nor inexpensive. Shipping alone is expensive. One I gutted and replaced all the electronics myself after a "professional" repair "broke again" two days after I received it back from the manufacturer.
Replacing the electronics is not for the faint-of-heart! Not everybody's cup of tea.
I look askance at these uber costly engines as I have come to learn first-hand just how undependable they can be.
MartyE posted:bigdodgetrain posted:Hot Water posted:OK, but the "blow down" is not prototypical, and the "engineering" does NOT reflect any of the eight UP 4000 class locomotives that have been saved and are on display around the U.S..
I am not trying to be a smart astronaut but at the 23 second mark what is that called?
From what I remember from what HW posted before, the VL BB blow down is different from what the real engine did. I think it was that blowdown
isn't correct for the Wilson separator which exhausts steam out of the top, forward of the cab, and exhausts dirty/sludgy water/steam out of a chute under the Engineer's side of the cab.
but who gets that technical with a toy train?
Some people do. It's a choice. No one should be chastised for the choice they make as some things that are important to some are not to others and that's ok.
BIGDODGETRAIN
for a price of 2700 dollars Lionel should get technical
Bob C.
So, now the super VL engines and their like are officially toys so we can over look certain discrepancies in their features like the wrong blow down and refueling them through the stack. When convenient look the other way. Interesting how that all works=sort of like our politicians.
A question. Has any three rail locomotive, regardless of price, ever been a perfect scale representation of the prototype? I think I know the answer, but I'm no expert. Not that I really care. I care about perfection (almost impossible to achieve, of course) in science and medicine, and airline pilots, but am not concerned with perfection in toy trains. Nonetheless, I am curious if anyone can make the case that an ideal and perfect model has been made by anyone, let's say 3rd Rail, Right of Way, MTH, Lionel, etc. Don't bring up Kohs or the Smithsonian's model shop unless you are prepared to defend the price .
reading his thread I would say that ,in general ,members take the Visionline promise with a grain of salt.
Bob C.
jim pastorius posted:So, now the super VL engines and their like are officially toys so we can over look certain discrepancies in their features like the wrong blow down and refueling them through the stack. When convenient look the other way. Interesting how that all works=sort of like our politicians.
Seriously? How do you add smoke fluid? The VL BB at least gives you the illusion of the coal load being depleted and refilled. In the real world trains don't even use smoke fluid. There is a trade off. Sorry but that commen just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you comment.
I think that there has been some good input on his thread and thanks to all the members posting
Bob C.
MartyE posted:In the real world trains don't even use smoke fluid.
I believe it was called "Bunker C."
Rusty
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I buy what i can afford and if i am sure i want it. But what bothers me is how many people are being locked out of this hobby because of the prices of this stuff. I really wanted the Allegheny but it is to expensive so i passed. To sum it up i am not in no matter what.
I am afraid that prices will only continue to rise on a steady basis from now on.
This is by no means an inexpensive hobby. With new freight cars between $50 to $100 and with diesel locomotives $350 to $600 and the like. I switched from HO to O scale a few years back and looking at the HO items they have risen considerably in prices also. The way I do it is with the huge lead times on items I just put money away each month to pay for whatever I order.
Mark Mcclung posted:... The way I do it is with the huge lead times on items I just put money away each month to pay for whatever I order.
Of course, that's exactly what some of the importers are counting on. 
It's much easier to slap a higher price-tag on items, when we don't need to pay for them while drooling over the catalog. And even if we don't like the price, the importers are hoping we'll just "get accustomed to the high price" by the time the product is delivered.
It's almost a reverse-way of thinking about how mortgages work. If you REALLY knew up front that you were gonna pay $700,000 (with interest over 30 years) for a $400,000 house, you might not be so quick to sign up for that 30-year mortgage. Or how about this analogy... you're in the market to buy a car, and the first question the salesperson asks you is "What size car payment can you afford each month?" At that point, you've lost all your negotiating power, 'cause they'll get you into a deal that fits your monthly payment goal... but the price you ended up paying for the car is probably a terrible deal overall. 
All I'm saying is that these huge lead-times for our toy trains make it much easier to pre-order something, but only later realize that we could have paid substantially less after the fact. We're seeing this in spades right now with many of the 2015 BTO items -- not so much VisionLine, but the other high-end products. Dealers are offering discount sales galore -- hoping to move their BTO "extras ordered on spec" at prices substantially lower than some of their best pre-order prices.
David
I don't desire to every Vision Line loco Lionel offers. I did purchase the Big Boy. One articulated is enough for me. I also ordered the GG-1. I never owned a GG-1, so this was an opportunity. I have the ethanol tanks and the PFE's. I ordered the 2nd run PFE's. But no, not committing to everything. ...Robbie
I would never commit to ANYTHING especially a toy, no matter who sells it. No matter the price etc.
