Like others, I have some VL items, but I didn't buy them because they were VL, but because they were something I wanted. That pretty much goes with all my train buys. If I want it, and I'm okay with the price, I get it.
Just a thought/question, if you take the ES4400 VL offering from a few years back, take off the metal body with detailed cab interior and removable roof, do the same with a recent ES4400 Legacy engine, and put them side by side what is the difference? If there is hundreds of dollars difference in price what are we getting with the VL?
I am done with high ticket items, I will still buy moderately priced item from Lionel. MTH...
Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
Yep.. ALWAYS the SAME cast of characters - one in particular - that criticizes Lionel pricing.
The solution, as Eliot stated ... DON'T BUY. Leave the rest of us alone - as long as we can afford it - to buy what we want. Much more pleasurable than reading the constant carping about Lionel by the same cast.
rthomps posted:Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
Yep.. ALWAYS the SAME cast of characters - one in particular - that criticizes Lionel pricing.
The solution, as Eliot stated ... DON'T BUY. Leave the rest of us alone - as long as we can afford it - to buy what we want. Much more pleasurable than reading the constant carping about Lionel by the same cast.
Just what would expect with a thread title like that?
rthomps posted:Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
Yep.. ALWAYS the SAME cast of characters - one in particular - that criticizes Lionel pricing.
The solution, as Eliot stated ... DON'T BUY. Leave the rest of us alone - as long as we can afford it - to buy what we want. Much more pleasurable than reading the constant carping about Lionel by the same cast.
Curious if you even realize that your responses have absolutely nothing to do with this thread?
The original question was whether people are committed to vision products. People are responding to that specific query with their rationale as to why they are or are not. Any response along these lines is perfectly valid. Yet you take issue with the response if you don't happen to agree with the rationale. If the OP was about whether people are committed to GGD or Koh products perhaps there would be similar responses.
What would a VL SD40-2 be like in comparison to a Lionel or MTH current offering? Die cast shell?
Paul
A Vision Line SD40-2 would require exact scale proportions as their recently released SD40's. Proper spacing of trucks, correct-size fuel tank and railroad-specific detail to name a few. Neither of Lionel's nor MTH's SD40-2's offer those.
I like my 2 VL products, (700E Hudson and Bigboy) but no longer can afford them so , no additional VL items for me but surely Lionel knows they have a winner and will continue to offer them via BTO.
Brent
I did get influenced by the Visionline mystique in ordering the new gg1
Bob C.
rthomps posted:Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
Yep.. ALWAYS the SAME cast of characters - one in particular - that criticizes Lionel pricing.
The solution, as Eliot stated ... DON'T BUY. Leave the rest of us alone - as long as we can afford it - to buy what we want. Much more pleasurable than reading the constant carping about Lionel by the same cast.
If you don't like what some of us are posting than why are you reading this thread? One thing i remember well. I mentioned prices to a hobby shop owner and how i was concerned over how people were being locked out of the hobby. His response was maybe they shouldn't be in this hobby. That hobby shop is no longer in business because he couldn't sell much. I hope i have not bothered anyone.
rthomps posted:Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
Yep.. ALWAYS the SAME cast of characters - one in particular - that criticizes Lionel pricing.
The solution, as Eliot stated ... DON'T BUY. Leave the rest of us alone - as long as we can afford it - to buy what we want. Much more pleasurable than reading the constant carping about Lionel by the same cast.
From my point of view, and I don't recall ever "complaining" before about prices as much as I am raising a concern of value. Price isn't the biggest concern for me, but like the question I asked a few posts ago....what are we getting for the additional cost of a vision line? I for one will probably order the next VL ES4400 or whatever diesel Lionel offers at that time, but it still doesn't answer my question about value. And again, I agree...can't afford it...don't buy it!!! So are people being smart consumers and demanding fairness or are they just complaining? And what really prompted me to respond initially is this absolute ignorance from the post you replied to that people shouldn't express their concern of rising prices or prices that are out of whack. The VL seems to fit that category in most cases. There are without question members who will complain about the price of a new catalog......($0.00) and it irritates me too, but when people practice their first amendment right, you can bet I am going to chime in and support that right whether it's the same old same old cast of characters or not. I don't do it much, but when I see this pompous attitude I get a little inspiration to post. Nothing I wouldn't say to anyone in person. By the way what are the chances you and this Eliot character who support these prices just click and buy without checking around for who is offering the best price on the item???? Wonder if you guys actually buy from an LHS and pay a higher price and taxes or if you shop around for the best price, free shipping and tax avoidance? I bet I know that answer.......
Marc C posted:rthomps posted:Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. ...
Yep.. ALWAYS the SAME cast of characters - one in particular - that criticizes Lionel pricing.
The solution, as Eliot stated ... DON'T BUY. Leave the rest of us alone - as long as we can afford it - to buy what we want. Much more pleasurable than reading the constant carping about Lionel by the same cast.
From my point of view, and I don't recall ever "complaining" before about prices as much as I am raising a concern of value. ...
So are people being smart consumers and demanding fairness or are they just complaining? And what really prompted me to respond initially is this absolute ignorance from the post you replied to that people shouldn't express their concern of rising prices or prices that are out of whack. The VL seems to fit that category in most cases. ....
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.... Give this man a prize!!! He GETS IT!!!! 
I'd suggest that all this "complaining" is merely "perceived-to-be-complaints" by the few folks who would purchase an item blindly regardless of price. And even at that, they'd likely shop around a bit.
Somewhat funny they're obviously missing the point that the question of value is often being raised by people who CAN afford the high prices but CHOOSE not to pay those prices when the value isn't there -- relative to what we've obtained in the recent past for a given dollar amount.
It's really that simple.
David
Committing to anything in life 'no matter what' seems a bit extreme to me. I do relate to getting excited about certain product lines, like Lionel's scale Polar Express items, which although pricey, are unique and really revive the excitement and joy of running electric trains.
If Lionel ever makes an model in a road-name in the Vision Line that I like I would certainly consider it. Thus far, the Vision Line lineup seems to have been made up of the usual O-gauge perennial favorites, Hudson, Big Boy, and GG1, except for the first couple of releases where they made 2 unique never-before made steam engines - that Santa Fe steamer was a real looker. Fortunately for me and no doubt many others they've made some nice steam engines with Legacy features in road-names that I run - and that were offered for far less cost than Vision Line items, and still had most, although probably not all, Vision Line features.
I just remembered, I did buy the Grand Central Terminal - which I recall was a Vision Line item. That is truly a unique and remarkable model.
"I don't recall ever "complaining" before about prices as much as I am raising a concern of value."
I don't think the remarks are related to posts such as your own. We each have a different value equation, and simply stating "I don't see the extra value in the extra cost" is a valid, civil and intelligent response. However, responses that read, more or less "those who disagree with me are possibly fools who have more money than brains and don't care about price" and/or "Lionel is screwing us on price when they obviously could be making these newly tooled locomotives with more features at a price I like better" are what some of us are reacting to. Not to mention that those sorts of comments are rude and cluelessly dismissing the opinions of others that the higher prices are primarily the result of new, expensive tooling, new technology and changes in the supply chain costs. And questioning the honesty and decency of those at Lionel, who are personal friends in some cases. The contrary opinions to the high moral dudgeon achieved by others have more factual basis. Thus the endless chest pounding, rending of garments, whining and insults to intelligence are that much more irritating 
. Sort like being in as day care center with no supervision.
""perceived-to-be-complaints" by the few folks who would purchase an item blindly regardless of price. "
Game, set and match to the critics .
"I bet I know that answer."
Just for the record, I have some knowledge of the two gentlemen in question. They are both extremely smart, well educated, thoughtful, mostly tolerant of others and their differences , and would not hesitate to loyally purchase from a good merchant with great service at a higher price if that opportunity was available. They, like many others, are getting tired for being rebuked and ridiculed, not to mention condescended to, for their enjoyment of Lionel's premium priced products.
It's not like there aren't alternatives. If you want bargains, the secondary market abounds with them. If you have patience, you will probably be able to pick up a Vision Line loco some years later at less cost, if that is your priority or preference. Or you can buy quite similar models from a competitor who is still using 10-20 year old tooling and a different command/sound package, usually at somewhat lower cost. I feel just fine about anyone who chooses either approach, but refrains from letting us know how little you think of those who choose to buy a Lionel Vision Line loco at premium price when it is first produced.
For me it was not the price or what it did it was the fact it was locomotive that were never done before, And I believe that's what is missing from the VL of now. I bought everyone of the first VL locos not because they had different sound or smoked differently but because they were pieces lionel never done before and everything else was a bonus. Now the VL has gotten boring, Nothing to excite the masses when the GE evo came out I said no one would pay that money for a diesel and I saw it and said wow that's never been done, Just like the 2-10-10-2 its a awesome piece, How many SD-40 or Dash 8 are they out there, There are plenty of Hudson's and Big Boys and Challengers and GG-1, So for me its about something different something no one would have expected lionel to produce, If that ever happens again then I would buy again but until then I will run my first set of VL locos and enjoy
Landsteiner posted:... They, like many others, are getting tired for being rebuked and ridiculed, not to mention condescended to, for their enjoyment of Lionel's premium priced products.
... I feel just fine about anyone who chooses either approach, but refrains from letting us know how little you think of those who choose to buy a Lionel Vision Line loco at premium price when it is first produced.
And as a former President would often say, "Well... there you go again!" 
Wouldn't have expected anything less than the usual pot-stirring you bring to these discussions. We've been over this territory before, Landsteiner. You conveniently stir the pot, misinterpreting posts that differ from your views. And then close each post with a smiley as if it makes it all right. Sorry I can't be that hypocritical.
Where in this thread do you see ANYBODY suggesting folks who pay Lionel's VisionLine prices are being looked down upon? You really need to stop injecting this concept every time a discussion of prices surface on this forum. If you feel good about defending Lionel's pricing policies -- whether because of tooling costs, R&D expenditures, overseas supplier issues, or most likely your last point... namely you have personal friends at Lionel (which most of us figured was the case all along) -- that's perfectly your prerogative to do so. But please stop injecting this distorted notion that folks who question Lionel's abrupt price increases are also looking down upon folks who buy high-priced products in general. Everybody here spends their hard-earned dollars however they choose. However, that's not gonna stop other folks from questioning why the new "standard Legacy diesel locomotive MSRP" is now $650. Left unchecked, in a couple of years we'll see $850. And some of us simply don't see the value there, and won't buy them. If you do, that's great. And if enough people do see value, then Lionel will continue onward. If enough consumers push back, then Lionel will get a different message. Not rocket science.
Sorry if you don't like when some of us compare prices across the marketplace and objectively question abrupt price increases -- most often by Lionel, but other importers on occasion too. We're not COMPLAINING about high prices when the product has commensurately high value. Rather I'd like to think consumers today are more street-savvy than we were decades ago. Did you hear us question 3rd Rail's $2000+ eight-car El Capitan train? No. Did you hear folks question Atlas-O's recent 12-car CZ sets for $1550? Heck no.... that's a terrific DEAL. However, I did question Atlas-O for introducing a paint-scheme surcharge for one road-name of newly announced tank cars recently. Did we question 3rd Rail's recent D&RGWL-131 for $2K? No, it's a beautifully executed, highly detailed BRASS locomotive worth every penny.
Did I say Lionel's VL Big Boy price of $2700 MSRP was cause for raising eye-brows? YES... because the exact same time Lionel catalog'd the Big Boy at $2700, they also catalog'd a non-VL Y-6b for SUBSTANTIALLY less. And I didn't think VisionLine justified an almost $700 difference in MSRP ($600 difference in street-price) for similar-class, articulated die-cast locomotives. Y-6b's could be had for under $1400 pre-order, when VL Big Boy street-prices were tagged at $2K.
Using another non-VL pricing analogy, dealers were forced to hold to a $2K MAP for Lionel's 115th Anniversary silver-plated Berk while the black P/E Berk sold for $1050. Was silver-plating worth $1,000 extra? Of course not. Consumers voted (by not purchasing), and now dealers can't even sell them "on sale" for $1700 at shows.
Still another non-VL product, this year's Allegheny, carries a pre-order street-price of $1850, which is $450 more than the y-6b's $1400 pre-order price just two years ago. Yet I wonder how much of a loss I'd take if tried selling a mint Y-6b on the forum today? 
So yes, Lionel's pricing is all over the map these days. And it's a challenge to decipher VL from non-VL locomotives just from the pricing alone. Go figure.
If you have friends who work at Lionel, that's fine. But don't let that cloud your views of folks providing objective commentary across the board about market pricing. And once and for all, please stop equating those of us who call out a ridiculous price-increase ... as being synonymous to "looking down" at those who decide to pay those prices, 'cause that couldn't be further from the truth. We're all probably guilty of paying more than we should have for something. 
When you're in this hobby long enough, it happens.
So may I suggest that you keep your comments focused on the topics themselves, rather than criticizing select folks whose thoughts differ from yours. You obviously have done -- and continue to do -- a consistently poor and inaccurate job representing our/their thoughts anyway. And the last I checked, nobody is asking for your "help" conveying our thoughts. We're perfectly capable of holding a discussion without unnecessary pot-stirring.
And in case you're waiting for it, I won't be ending this post with a "smiley" emoticon.
David
" few folks who would purchase an item blindly "
Amongst the constant stream of self-congratulatory hot air you are blowing, you think this is not a condescending or pejorative comment? Once again, you are oblivious to your own condescending tone, rudeness and arrogance. It ain't my problem, as much as you'd like to paint it as such. And it has nothing to do with having acquaintances (not friends) at Lionel. It has to do with your uncollegial, bullying behavior.
Landsteiner posted:" few folks who would purchase an item blindly "
Amongst the constant stream of self-congratulatory hot air you are blowing, you think this is not a condescending or pejorative comment? Once again, you are oblivious to your own condescending tone, rudeness and arrogance. It ain't my problem, as much as you'd like to paint it as such. And it has nothing to do with having acquaintances (not friends) at Lionel. It has to do with your uncollegial, bullying behavior.
My, my! Someone sure didn't take their medication today. Personally, I think ROCKY MOUNTAINEER is usually spot on. But that is my opinion.
Landsteiner posted:" few folks who would purchase an item blindly "
... you think this is not a condescending or pejorative comment? ....
Funny... why did you only excerpt that clause? And not include the sentence that followed in full context, where I also said... "And even at that, they'd likely shop around a bit."
Oh wait... I know... as do others here... that only excerpting the smaller quote out of context helped to better embellish your disregard for what I was really saying. Give it a rest, man. This is NOT supposed to be how threads evolve here... and it sometimes results in threads getting deleted altogether... which is unfortunate, since folks took time to offer their thoughts on something that was important to the OP.
David
I have gotten much good input on this topic and I thank all serious posters.
Bob C.
here is something to think about why the VL has gotten stale and boring is because when the JLC series came out what was in that series of locos scale GG-1 and a Big Boy when the century club series came out what was in it oh a GG-1 and now VL.. When the first series came out wow something remarkable they were different never done before now lionel has gotten back to its old habit of "we cant think of something new" lets make another GG-1 or Big Boy, so for me I will wait until someone new comes to work at lionel and say "lets do something different lets think out of the box" and maybe just maybe we will all buy again
I love the detail and roll/coupling quality of the VL rolling stock. When I find some at the right price -- FSOT forum or eBay -- I buy it. Take a look at the detail on the LVL PS5 gondola. I recently found one new for $30 + shipping. I have a pretty large collection of engines and RS after 5 yrs in the hobby. I haven't found much that I wanted that I couldn't afford from the right source. If someone wants to spend $2000 on an engine good for them. If no one does then Lionel will figure it out and adjust. The great thing about the hobby is that you can tailor your engagement to any price point you want. Would I love to drive a Ferrari? Yes. Can I afford one? No. So I'm happy with my truck. Maybe we could have a Flame Wars forum for everyone that enjoys that kind of thing.
"By the way what are the chances you and this Eliot character who support these prices just click and buy without checking around" . . . . . . . . . Marc C
I have not read much in this thread since it devolved into the realm of nonsense. I am not a big aficionado of science fiction or soap operas and I am much too busy to engage in a debate about who knows the most about the pricing structure of the Lionel Corporation. I do, however, LOVE being called a character. A "character" is someone folks enjoy talking about and the word makes me think about Dick Tracy, the old cartoon private eye. Wow, now I'm a character. I think I will need a some sort of "icon" in addition to "Scrapiron Scher." Let's see . . . . . I need an image that represents the type of person who derides the "know it alls" who want to say anything about anything at any time and never be called whiners or complainers. They want to be called experts, I think. These experts will reveal the true word of hobby. I really do love it !!
George Bernard Shaw once said:
"There is no dearth of mosquitoes who, at the drop of a hat, are willing to reveal to you the word of God."
Attachments
Images (1)
Not sure what this is all about. If Lionel offers a VL product that dovetails with my rather narrow interests, I'll buy it, quite probably regardless of price!
So far, they have not. I doubt they ever will. Not their fault. I'm a very small market!
A VL version of this behemoth would get my attention, just "fer instance." Likely? Hardly.
wAttachments
Images (1)
Scrapiron Scher posted:"By the way what are the chances you and this Eliot character who support these prices just click and buy without checking around" . . . . . . . . . Marc C
I have not read much in this thread since it devolved into the realm of nonsense. I am not a big aficionado of science fiction or soap operas and I am much too busy to engage in a debate about who knows the most about the pricing structure of the Lionel Corporation. I do, however, LOVE being called a character.
Well put Eliot, Well put. I may need to frame your reply. I did rather enjoy the read. And coincidentally the character you spoke of is the exact character I thought of when I read you initial response. DICK......Tracy that is. Myself, more like Capt. America. Defending the rights of others to share their opinion without recourse. I am also impressed that you realize you are not an expert. Next time you decide to belittle the opinions of others so early on in a thread, opinions that others take the time and thought to respond to, I'm quite certain you will think twice. If not.......well I think you know who will be there. However we have a couple things in common, we both like Lionel, we both like and can afford Vision line products, and we both have a great love for the worlds greatest hobby. So without further ado, I bid you a fond weekend with trains, family and the things that really matter in life. I hope to post with you again sometime.
Your Friend always,
Marc
Marc C posted:Just a thought/question, if you take the ES4400 VL offering from a few years back, take off the metal body with detailed cab interior and removable roof, do the same with a recent ES4400 Legacy engine, and put them side by side what is the difference? If there is hundreds of dollars difference in price what are we getting with the VL?
I would also be interested in knowing all the differences between these two. They would be interesting to know about. Although I still would most likely opt for the Legacy engine and not the VL, I really can't say for sure until that choice is available and comparisons were made.
rtr12 posted:Marc C posted:Just a thought/question, if you take the ES4400 VL offering from a few years back, take off the metal body with detailed cab interior and removable roof, do the same with a recent ES4400 Legacy engine, and put them side by side what is the difference? If there is hundreds of dollars difference in price what are we getting with the VL?
I would also be interested in knowing all the differences between these two. They would be interesting to know about. Although I still would most likely opt for the Legacy engine and not the VL, I really can't say for sure until that choice is available and comparisons were made.
OK, I'll have a go at responding because I have, and treasure, the VL version and was very interested in the later issues (there were at least two I can remember) of ES4400s (or ES44ACs).
1. In 2011 Lionel catalogued a number of die cast ES4400s. Judging from the manuals and what I remember seeing of them, these were VLs in everything but name because they had all the sound and smoke features of the VLs, which were truly "visionary" (if that's the right word) because of innovative idle, shutdown and start up sequences and co-ordinated smoke output aside from other operating features. That was reflected in the MSRP, which was only about $30 less than the earlier VL versions. What they did not have were the VL chasing charging lights, a feature which MTH has done to death on several of their versions.
2. The comparison I think the first poster quoted above is inviting because of the price difference he mentions is between the VLs and the 2014 ES4400s. These are not die cast and have none of the VL sound, light and smoke features except (according to the manual) the idle mode sounds. I don't think that they have the cab/opening compartment detail either. So for the most part it's standard Legacy sound, smoke and lights.
The VLs were a bargain at the street price and as far as I am concerned have infinitely more play value than the more recent offerings. Also, mine worked straight out of the box and have been dependable runners over the years with no issue I could not resolve by simple routine maintenance.
No need to ponder this matter deeply. I'm in for Vision Line locomotives because they are fun!
2. The comparison I think the first poster quoted above is inviting because of the price difference he mentions is between the VLs and the 2014 ES4400s. These are not die cast and have none of the VL sound, light and smoke features. I don't think that they have the cab/opening compartment detail either. It's standard Legacy sound, smoke and lights.
Excellent! Thank you! Now were headed down the right track. (Pun intended) Initially I was told that the VL engines only offered a metal body, a detailed cab interior and a few more rivets here and there. That's where I was blown away by the difference in price. Now I took that with a grain of salt because I never had seen a side by side comparison. So is it safe for me to infer that the Vision Line engines have better sound, probably from a better quality speaker and sound set, then that of standard RS5 Legacy engines? And a better smoke unit that corresponds to a more realistic output? I would guess Lionel is probably putting in higher quality drive motors to accommodate super realistic slow speeds? Which I think they are the best slow crawlers in the industry even on the Legacy platform. Appreciate you sharing your experience.
Marc
Marc C posted:Excellent! Thank you! Now were headed down the right track. (Pun intended) Initially I was told that the VL engines only offered a metal body, a detailed cab interior and a few more rivets here and there. That's where I was blown away by the difference in price. Now I took that with a grain of salt because I never had seen a side by side comparison. So is it safe for me to infer that the Vision Line engines have better sound, probably from a better quality speaker and sound set, then that of standard RS5 Legacy engines? And a better smoke unit that corresponds to a more realistic output? I would guess Lionel is probably putting in higher quality drive motors to accommodate super realistic slow speeds? Which I think they are the best slow crawlers in the industry even on the Legacy platform. Appreciate you sharing your experience.
Marc
I think you need to be careful about assuming anything partly because the whole Legacy system has changed over time (the main control boards and smoke units now are different from when Legacy was first introduced) and it's difficult to make generalizations. I think, based on my own experience, you need to look at it on a model-by-model basis.
The differences between the VL diesels and the cheaper models are certainly a lot more than extra rivets and a few extra details. That said, some of the VL features have made their way down to the main product line. I changed my original posting from the text you have quoted above when I checked the 2014 ES44AC manuals and found that they also have the idle/sleep effects used in the VL models.
Better sound? Yes by a variety of means including multiple/better quality speakers, better speaker placement and possibly most important of all speaker enclosures.
Smoke units - Lionel seems to have many more variations of these than any other manufacturer but yes, I think that the object was to create more realistic effects. (That does not always appeal to to those of us who use MegaSmoke even in diesels.) You need to play around with the Legacy smoke and EFX settings to get the output you want.
Slow speed control has always been good/better than MTH but I think that is a control system feature rather than different can motors.
I can tell you that the VL ES44 models were worth a lot more than I paid for them in terms of fun in in use.
You know, on a macro-level, the other thing that concerns me about the inexplicably ever-increasing prices being charged by Lionel is the insidious drafting effect it is having on the greater O gauge locomotive pricing structure.
The basic conventional diesel locomotives from WBB now, in many cases, have an MSRP of around $450. That's as much or more than an entire RK, fully DCS outfitted, command control rtr set. And, is every Legacy engine, most of which are old tooling (but some now with the whistle steam gimmick), really at a cost basis to Lionel to dictate a $1,500 plus price point?
Just seems like the drafting effect is slowly altering what "embedded hobby people" who pay these prices deem to be the "norm" while the general populace disagrees, perhaps the reason so many brick and mortar stores can't keep their doors open - fewer regular folks are willing to pay these prices to bring home a new train for little Johnny.
Peter
" perhaps the reason so many brick and mortar stores can't keep their doors open -"
I'd guess this is more about competition from internet retailers. Just as department stores like Macy's, Kohl's and other big box stores sales are down and Amazon and internet sales are up, hobby stores cannot compete with the prices of those who buy in volume and have lower overhead per unit sold.
Anyone who think it's only Lionel whose prices are increasing and they are leading others to increase prices hasn't checked out HO or N gauge locos with DCC and sound lately. Costs of good sold have increased dramatically in a marketplace that is stagnant or even shrinking. Nobody likes to hear that, least of all the vendors, but it's the obvious reality in toy trains, and even model railroading in general.
Landsteiner, you raise a good point and I agree that Internet selling has changed the landscape. The problem is, people love to use that statement as a silver bullet to explain away so many ills. The fact is, the difference in price between the brick and mortar guy and the Internet guy is negligible and cannot possibly be the sole cause of the brick and mortar guy losing business and closing his doors.
For illustration purposes, Lionel MSRP on the VLBB was $2,700. Regardless of the overhead costs the Internet guy is saving, he isn't going to be able to sell the VLBB at much less than the brick and mortar guy because they both have a similar cost basis. Meaning, neither can sell this item at say $1,000, which I imagine is still past the upper limit of what the the regular guy wanting to enter the hobby would deem a "stretch" price. In the case of the hobby shop, having too many things that people can't afford means not enough turnover to stay in business. In the case of the Internet guy, his item just sits week after week online and unsold. In both cases, the lack of turnover has to do with the increasingly higher costs at which the retailers can acquire and then, in-turn, sell these items, not their business model.
