How much power do I need?

Work in progress......I currently have one line 150' counting sidings (switched on off) second line 80'. Each one has a 180 brick via a TPC 300. It allows me to flip back and forth Legacy/TMCC or conventional, one or the other not both at once. It also allows a few functions of MTH engines.

Nothing else is powered be either brick. All auxiliary is a separate power source. It's not been tested with two trains on either line at one time yet.

A lot depends upon the current requirements of your locomotives etc. If 10A per loop (Or power district.) will suffice, then a 180W Powerhouse coupled with a Legacy PowerMaster per loop (Or power district.) should be ideal. If you need more than 10A per loop (Or power district.), then a TPC300 or TPC400 instead of a Legacy PowerMaster would allow you to use 2 transformer bricks on each.

Use of TPC or Legacy PowerMaster units would allow you to run either loop in conventional mode if desired. Using a Legacy PowerMaster would also give you very good protection against short-circuit or overload damage, as well as very simple installation.

You don't say whether you have a need for power for accessories, or any planned expansion that may need more power. If you do, then a ZW-L may be a good option as this will also give you some spare capacity for future needs.

bt430-

A 180w powerhouse should be enough to drive the two engines with plenty of power to spare. I'm curious to know what's causing the postwar ZW to fail, as typically these units are built to last.  Regardless of which power supply option you choose, I'd still recommend adding a 14 gauge bus wire with power feeds every 6-8 feet to minimize any voltage drops across the layout to minimize power losses caused by bad connections.

-John

IMHO....Always buy more power than you are going to need. It's far better to have plenty to spare. When the time comes for expansion you'll already have the needed power. 

I run all prewar, both Std & O-Gauge. I'm using three Lionel Z and one MTH Z4K. My trains do use a lot of power, however, if I need more it's there.

Plan ahead just not the present.

One brick will do just fine. The benefit will be a fast acting breaker to protect the electronics.

Hard to beat the 180 watt PoHos with the fastest-acting breaker--an electronic breaker.

The Poho's breaker for protecting the transformer against overcurrent surges plus a TVS on each power district to clamp voltage spikes, is the best protection sans very expensive units.

Power and protection is the PoHo answer and if you want more power and, the flexibility of Command/conventional operation from the handheld, the TPC serves.

Photo shows Pohos/TPCs linked for two separate 180 watt power districts.

Try a brick and this cable, 6-12893, then you don't have to cut the original cable. Wire it direct, as you don't appear to run conventional trains. You should be able to get in for $100 or less. (they're on the bay)If you don't like it, you can recover your money and buy the ZW-L.

I agree with Moonman, if you're running command only, the PH180 is the choice here.  They have the best breaker of any commercial transformer that I've seen, and a pair of them for 360 watts of power will only set you back $200 or less.  I'm not sure why you'd want to spend three times that amount if you don't need the capability of the ZW-L.  Put the extra $400 into some needed stuff for the RR, I'm sure you have a list.

If you do go for the 180W brick option, I'd still suggest that you include Legacy PowerMasters (1 per brick.). Not only will these give you the ability to run conventional trains from your remote, but they add an extra level of protection to your trains in the event of an overload or short-circuit. The PowerMasters have the latest in circuit protection features and this is much better than just relying on the (,albeit very fast,) breaker in the brick. They are simplicity itself to connect. Just plug the brick in, and connect 2 wires to the track. They only take moments to program too.

Is there a Y cable that allows one 180W brick to connect to two PowerMasters?  I ask because 1 180W brick is more than enough to run two conventional locomotives, and I'd like to control a dual loop with a handheld and run both trains independently.

This is the only set I know of from Lionel, but it looks like it is backwards and for different equipment than you are using. Maybe you could adapt? TMCC Cable Set I'm not familiar with Powermasters, only have the PH-180's going to DCS-TIU here.

Gunrunnerjohn has previously posted the required the parts to make a PH-180 adapter plug, you can also get them here PH-TIU for use with a TIU (you may have to scroll down to Transformers & Remote Controls section to find it). Maybe you could adapt the banana plugs to use with the Powermasters or remove and use the other end somehow?  

If you are only running TMCC/Legacy command control, then you could just use one PowerMaster connected to both loops.

This would mean that you couldn't really run one loop as conventional, and the other under command control though.

As for a cable to connect one transformer brick to two PowerMasters, I don't know of a ready-made cable that will do this. But I think that you could use the TMCC TPC cable set (6-14194) and connect the two single leads to the end of the Y cable in order to accomplish this. (Effectively making a X cable.) Then you would just connect your transformer brick to one of the female connectors on the Y cable, and the two male connectors to your PowerMasters.

It would really be better to have one transformer brick for each PowerMaster though.

Unless you want conventional capability, the PowerMasters are totally unnecessary.  The PH180 bricks will do the trick fine.  I'd probably add a TVS across the track feeds, but I trust the breakers in the PH180 bricks.

Hi John.

Although I agree that having a PowerMaster is not strictly necessary, I would still advise anyone to strongly consider having one. The circuit protection is first rate on these, and operates even faster than the breaker on the PowerHouse brick.

Additionally, you gain the ability to reset the breaker via your remote, remove the risk of warp-speed locomotives if you turn the power on before your Legacy/TMCC base. Also you gain the option to run conventionally from the remote if you so desire.

For the fairly low cost of the new Legacy PowerMasters, you get a lot of benefits.

There are so very many of you on here who know all about the command control systems!  I know next-to-nothing and still operate conventionally via wireless through an MTH 4000 system.

One day I will break down but I'm waiting until the manufacturers can come up with one remote that can control all features on both Lionel and MTH.  That day may be closer than a lot of people realize.  At least I hope.   

Yes there are. I have learned just about everything I know here. I just learned the value of a Powermaster myself, thank you N.Q.D.Y., that was a very good explanation of why I might need one. You should help Lionel with their descriptions!   Didn't know they were fast breakers that are resettable for the remote. I have DCS, but have been waiting on a Legacy system for quite a while so don't know much about all that stuff yet.

Like I said, one 180W brick is enough to run two conventional locomotives, one on each loop, and I'd like to run each loop independently.  It's going to be for an around the room near the ceiling layout.  I want to do a dual main, one train on each and be able to control them separately, and it would be a waste of money to buy two 180W bricks when one works both loops just fine on the floor.

I try not to need a reset so often that I have to do it from the remote.

bt430,

   1st I do not think your ZW is dying, probably cost you less than $60.00 to have it repaired, I would have it fixed, and like Pappy says,you might want to increase your power supply by adding another one.  Always have enough power to expand when ever needed.  Here in the Pittsbugh, Pa area you can pick up another ZW or KW for reasonable money, especially a rebuilt one.  I have never been big on bricks, I like good transformers for powering my engines and my layout switches, use the 10 Amp Scott type breakers with them.  If you play it smart you can probably set yourself up with a repair on your ZW and another transformer for less than $180.00, having the power you need and then some to expand with.

PCRR/Dave 

I run DCS, TMCC, and Legacy, I have ~ 2 1/2 loops at ~100' per.  One 180 brick per TIU/loop works fine for up to 3 engines per loop plus a few passenger cars.  The biggest factor is how many passenger car are run.  If I have too many, 10 plus, I get some trips.  Led's are great for this, low draw.  No ZW or or Z4000.  For the one or two conventional I use the variable TIU channels.  The Lionel 180 breakers are great.

Dan 

So, I was wondering could 1 180w power brick handle two loops and a yard inside and run two to three trains (two engines with passenger cars) and run the command control switches on a 8 1/2 by 18 feet layout? This is a Tmcc run layout.

I think you need to consider additional power.  Passenger trains, especially if you haven't converted to LED lighting, are power hogs.  When we run our modular layout, having two passenger trains on one loop frequently tripped the breaker of the PH180.

All my passenger cars have led lighting. Does that make a huge difference?

If you want the ultimate circuit breaker, POWERSHIELD  PSX-AC.    Do a forum search for "PSX" to see previous threads.  Charlesro has them for $44.95.  Under "Legacy & Trainmaster", last item.

Dan

Good advice here, these are very nice breakers. Got some last year. Very fast, lots of options built in to the board, remote reset, alarm, indication leds, etc.  Some additional parts are required for the options if you choose to use them.

Wasn't aware Charles Ro had them, I think that is a bit cheaper than mine were also.

HUGE!  The power consumption goes from 40-60 watts for a typical consist to 3-4 watts typically.

Pine Tree Junction,

   As John advises LED's make a huge difference, even so I would still invest in another transformer expanding your power.

PCRR/Dave

Hi Joe,

The Legacy PowerMaster short-circuit/overload protection is much improved over the TPC 300/400. Instead of being a simple breaker, it employs an advanced protection system that reacts instantly to protect your trains. I was so impressed with the Legacy PowerMasters that I have retired my TPC units and replaced them with Legacy PowerMasters.

If you wish to run one loop in conventional and one in command mode, then you need to ensure that your loops are in different power districts (The centre rails must be isolated from each other.) and use a separate TPC/PowerMaster for each. Then connect an 18V power source to each TPC/PowerMaster. (Either 180W bricks, or outputs from your Z4000)

Even with the set-up that you have at present, you don't need to run a feed from your transformer directly to the track for conventional control., You could simply switch your TPC to conventional mode and use your remote to control the trains in conventional mode.

But if you have each loop controlled by its own TPC or Legacy PowerMaster, you have the option to run either loop in conventional with the other in command. I can't prove this, but my experience has been that the Legacy PowerMasters give an even smoother control when used in conventional than the TPC units do.

Nicole:

I am in the benchwork phase now. Once I get to the track I am going to purchase a Legacy Powermaster for the second loop. So I will have a TPC400 on one loop and the powermaster on the other loop then the experiment begins!!

No problem buying new stuff but it is usually possible to rebuild your ZW for very little money and use it for accessories. 

 I'm no expert but I think you can also run it thru the powermasters and get the advantage of fast breakers. Don

Dewey,

are the PVC pipes just for cord carriers to make things

neater??

If that's the case, great job, it looks very organized.

Sounds like the breaker is going bad. That's an easy fix provided there are not other issues like worn out rollers and rectifier disk.