The only constructive comment I can make on this subject is to always include an exhaust fan, with an on-off switch, in the design of your train room. It reduces the probability that your spouse will be bothered by the smoke while also reducing the possibility of ill effects.
@Landsteiner posted:Everyone will just have to make their own choices and risk assessments, since there are no data whatever.
And being there is no data we revert to ‘be reasonable and courteous’. I think your detailed analysis covers it well! Thank you.
"Yo! Finally! A thread we can dig, man! Now, if only there was a 'Mary Jane' flavor! High-Rail would be whole new feature-realm!"
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Just kidding, of course. Ours is a smoke-free house...period. 
The flip side of all that smoke is that it doesn't totally dissipate...it deposits!!...over your engines, rolling stock, lineside structures/scenery, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah.
And yet, the worst 'smoke' problem wife and I encountered was in tearing down a huge room-size layout for a widow. Her husband had added a room onto the house...IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the kitchen. We're talking 'open-concept', 'flow-through' home design, folks. So EVERYTHING was coated with cooking oils/smoke debris...made that much more interesting by a curious mixture of steam/smoke pills and oils from years of choo-choo poo-poo...as evidenced by the bottle line-up left sitting on the control panel. (In retrospect, I wish I'd taken a photo of that!) So, aside from the pulmonary aspects of Pullmor puffing power...and beyond...the crud-coating is hard to ignore in the long haul. Dust, alone, is bad enough. Dust added to the oily residues??...OMG!, not for me/us!
But, TEHO. 'Whatever keeps your boat afloat', they say.
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@IRON HORSE posted:My air purifier does that, too, at 600 cf per minute, like a commercial grade bath fan. It also enhances the look of smoke coming from my engines by pulling the steam from across the room into it. I like the look of that, and the smoke isn't in my face.
Can you do a video for us.
25 (or so) years ago, the Toy Train Mailing List had an ongoing discussion on Lionel smoke pellets and smoke fluids. One of the contributors, Dr. Chip Miller, a chemist at a research facility, analyzed the pellets and determined that they were Terphenyl. At a Friday morning York TTML breakfast, he gave the attendees packets of the white powder with a caveat of "don't let LEOs catch you with it". I believe Dr. Miller's identification of the Lionel chemical led to the re-manufacture of pellets. This article is a description of Lionel's smoke pellet development and Dr. Miller's identification of the chemical.
MTH delivered it's (IIRC) first diecast articulated engine in 1996 - the Railking Challenger - with a motorized smoke generator that replaced the Seuth units used previously. The new MTH unit generated billows of smoke. I first ran this engine at a holiday show and quickly ran out of smoke fluid. Once the fluid bottle distributed with the engine ran out, one of the other show operators, a musician who used smoke generators, brought in a gallon jug of his smoke fluid which worked great. Of course the MTH instructions demanded only MTH smoke fluid (unavailable at the time) so I was interested in what the musician/theater guys used to generate smoke. The chemical is usually propylene glycol. In TTML discussions, Dr. Miller said that a propylene glycol mist was used to prevent infections in labs (here is an NIH paper on the subject). Dept 56 smoke fluid is scented propylene glycol. So, assured that propylene glycol mist is not a health risk I started using readily available Dept 56 fluid as a substitute.
Highly refined lamp oil was recommended by some in the years before MTH began shipping their own smoke fluid. A bottle of lamp oil can be mineral oil or kerosene. A smokestack fire from vaporized kerosene is not something to want under an xmas tree layout and this forum had warnings against using lamp oil.
Mineral oils are the basis commercially available smoke fluids. Mineral oil flash points vary (they are higher than kerosene) as well as the persistent of the oil particle cloud. I hope that a "food grade" mineral oil is used. They are scented to disguise the fact that the cloud is vaporized oil particles. Your sensitivity may vary.
At shows, my clubs use smoke fluids from several manufacturers. We host up to 1,000 guests a day and the ventilation of the venues is sometimes inadequate. We like to have all the sight and sound features of our trains active. Some guests have to get away from the layout when several steamers are operating so when we see this happening, we turn the smoke down, or off, to let the air clear.
At home I usually turn smoke off so I don't have oil particles settle on everything. (I have too many dust collectors as is).
@Darrell posted:I found this in about 2 seconds:
This is an MSDS sheet, Material Safety Data Sheet for MTH smoke fluid.
Not addressing the health aspect but my wife has an scent tolerance concern.
I have side stepped that issue by using UNSCENTED versions of MTH and MEGA.
@BobbyD posted:what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners? How do they get the scent out? Have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day, went to a restaurant with a group and they asked for cooked on the grill hot dogs. When his arrived with some minor charring he said it causes cancer and he avoids it. They all stared in disbelief.
Those air "fresheners" give me a major headache.
Your friend sounds like a wacko, but probably a lovable one.
@BobbyD posted:...what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners?
When I'm not looking, my wife plugs them in. When she's not looking, I unplug them. And we don't talk about it. 😅
@Mike CT posted:This is an MSDS sheet, Material Safety Data Sheet for MTH smoke fluid.
Yes, someone asked if one existed.
What was the base for the original Lionel SP pellets. They seemed to have hardly any smell when I was using them In the 1950's.
@Patrick1544 posted:What was the base for the original Lionel SP pellets. They seemed to have hardly any smell when I was using them In the 1950's.
This detailed history was posted earlier: https://www.trains.com/ctt/beginners/smoke-pellets/
@Patrick1544 posted:What was the base for the original Lionel SP pellets. They seemed to have hardly any smell when I was using them In the 1950's.
M-Terphynel or however it is spelled.
Anybody remember putting aspirin in Lionel stacks?
Folks all this is great information and leave it to Arnold to come up with these off the wall topics. All kidding aside we only live once so enjoy life while we can and let them locomotives smoke in the end it most likely make a "HOOT" any way!!!! Me I keep the all set at the low range due to smoke dictators in the basement train room going off.
Since the MSDS says it’s mineral oil. Would using Mineral Oil from the pharmacy be the same as unscented
At the local club layout, the smoke attracts the children and drives away the HO modelers. I would call it a win-win.
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:Anybody remember putting aspirin in Lionel stacks?
That's one I've never heard. So, what did an aspirin in the stack produce, Mark? (aside from pain relief for the engine…)
I can only offer anecdotal evidence: it affects my asthma much, much less than the heavy perfumes most women and many men wear nowadays. Toy train smoke--even the scents I have encountered--hardly creates any effect, but the perfume--like cigarette smoke--sends me stumbling from the room coughing. I'll take Oil-fired over Channel No. 5 ANY day.
@redrockbill posted:That's one I've never heard. So, what did an aspirin in the stack produce, Mark? (aside from pain relief for the engine…)
Smoke that didn’t cause headaches?
Actually dropping in an uncoated aspirin in a PW engine gave smoke indistinguishable from Lionel smoke pellets, and a bottle of aspirin was cheaper than a bottle of smoke pellets. Since aspirins were ingested, I can’t imagine vaporized acetylsalicylic acid would be in any way toxic.
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:Smoke that didn’t cause headaches?
Actually dropping in an uncoated aspirin in a PW engine gave smoke indistinguishable from Lionel smoke pellets, and a bottle of aspirin was cheaper than a bottle of smoke pellets. Since aspirins were ingested, I can’t imagine vaporized acetylsalicylic acid would be in any way toxic.
Heat and atmospheric moisture will hydrolyze acetylsalicylic acid to acetic acid and salicylic acid. I would be concerned the corrosivity of these organic acids would have a negative effect on heater wiring and diecast zinc and cause the kind of damage one sees around the wiring and smokestacks of pellet-smoke steamers. This damage would likely be exacerbated in regions with consistently higher absolute humidity, such as the southeastern states.
My father was thrifty; we used aspirin. I still use aspirin when I, infrequently, run postwar lokes. Haven’t noticed any deleterious effects.
@yardtrain posted:Can you do a video for us.
I'll try but my layout is currently under construction. I took a video awhile ago but I'm having a hard time finding it. Thanks for your interest.
@palallin posted:I can only offer anecdotal evidence: it affects my asthma much, much less than the heavy perfumes most women and many men wear nowadays. Toy train smoke--even the scents I have encountered--hardly creates any effect, but the perfume--like cigarette smoke--sends me stumbling from the room coughing. I'll take Oil-fired over Channel No. 5 ANY day.
Interesting experience as an asthmatic. Thanks for sharing this. The scented smoke was the issue with asthma with my wife. So I run only unscented, but still keep it entirely isolated from her.
@IRON HORSE posted:Interesting experience as an asthmatic. Thanks for sharing this. The scented smoke was the issue with asthma with my wife. So I run only unscented, but still keep it entirely isolated from her.
My wife and children have asthma, I don’t but am sensitive to many chemicals.
As kids we loved riding the Redwood Valley Railway in the Oakland, California hills. One day about 1972 we each got a cab ride and got to fire the coal burning loco. I was thrilled and amazed at these shiny black rocks that burned and still love a bit of the smell of coal smoke!
I wonder if a scent similar to coal, oil or diesel burning locomotives is available, I don’t suppose any of the Dept 56 companies sell such a thing!
Once I get my garden railroad up again, I have found a source of coal and intend to use it! If not to fire the locos, at least as an ‘engineer warmer’!
To preserve the elements, I use mineral oil-based fluid in my PW and MPC-era steamers in which the heater cannot be turned off, per the instructions. In the newer locos with a switch for the smoker, I turn it off. For example, I just got a $1400 Legacy Veranda Turbine and I can't bring myself to put fluid in it and get oil all over the turbine and diesel exhaust ports. I know the fan-driven smoke units give a spectacular display, but I just can't do it.
I thought about this all day. You heat up mineral oil which converts the liquid into a gas......but instead of collecting the gas in another container (like say we were distilling EtOH from a water/ehanol mixture), we allow it to flow freely in the air.
The air is obviously cooler and it changes form back into a liquid but the gas is spread over a large area where we can't really see it changing back. Then, we discover it as the oily residue that builds up on the rails ( and, I imagine, other surfaces if we looked for it).
Peter
@palallin posted:I can only offer anecdotal evidence: it affects my asthma much, much less than the heavy perfumes most women and many men wear nowadays.
There seem to be two major chemistries in women's perfumes. One gives me a headache and the other makes me nauseous. Neither one makes me feel good.
@RoyBoy posted:There seem to be two major chemistries in women's perfumes. One gives me a headache and the other makes me nauseous. Neither one makes me feel good.
Hmmm... I thought it was women who get the headaches (or say they do), and when they put perfume on it, is supposed to make us feel good
@Russell - Idaho USA posted:Smoke ‘vapor’ is indeed a valid concern and I am surprised every manufacturer is not required to have an MSDS for it,
Do you have MSDS for everything in your home? Lighter fluid? Ivory soap? Comet cleanser? Shoe polish? Vinegar? Why would anyone need that for their home? We're not talking about Draino or wasp killer here, it's mineral oil, you know, the stuff you can take internally when you can't go. Most homes don't have a binder full of MSDS paperwork on everything they have in the house.
I think we've pretty much beaten this dead horse to a pulp on this and a number of other topics, plywood vs OSB, kitty litter ballast et al but like Jason Vorhees it will rise again in the future.
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If you have a medical condition that can be aggravated by it, THEN DON'T USE IT! ( valid concern, the only one actually )
If your spouse doesn't like the smell, THEN DON'T USE IT!
If you're paranoid about growing a third eye or a symbiotic twin, THEN DON'T USE IT !
We are all grown adults here and this isn't that complicated.
To paraphrase Linus Van Pelt "Some people can manage to take a wonderful hobby like model railroading and turn it into a problem!"
Jerry
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I think the purpose of Arnold's post was to better understand the nature of the stuff hobbyists (and their grandkids) are inhaling and being deposited all over their layouts. I think knowing is better than not knowing. And the extent of the responses to his post tells me that there is definite interest in knowing. If you don't want to know, then there's no reason to keep following the thread.
And it has been discussed ad nauseum here on the forum. No one is posting any new information on the subject just a rehash of a rehash of a rehash so in all reality it benefits no one. In fact none of the replys have any info on the medical effects of the smoke/fog on us humans so it provides no real info to anyone who is interested in the subject.
I really believe they need to have a forum topic called "Not This Crap Again" for just such things.
Jerry
@baltimoretrainworks posted:In fact none of the replys have any info on the medical effects of the smoke/fog on us humans so it provides no real info to anyone who is interested in the subject.
Sadly, this is true.
@West Side Joe posted:Sadly, this is true.
I will add though, I have appreciated the info here as I am not a regular on this forum.
To add my 1.7¢ (inflation you know), I love smoking locos, especially the newer fan driven units with steam leaking out other places too, though I don’t use them often because of the oily residue mostly.
I will be using the glycerine based solution we use on stage, pretty harmless to most anything, just adds a bit of humidity to the air generally…
Here are detailed instructions on making your own. https://stagebibles.com/how-to-make-fog-juice/
@Putnam Division posted:I thought about this all day. You heat up mineral oil which converts the liquid into a gas......but instead of collecting the gas in another container (like say we were distilling EtOH from a water/ehanol mixture), we allow it to flow freely in the air.
The air is obviously cooler and it changes form back into a liquid but the gas is spread over a large area where we can't really see it changing back. Then, we discover it as the oily residue that builds up on the rails ( and, I imagine, other surfaces if we looked for it).
Peter
Ethanol (C2H5OH), ??? may be the only potable alcohol??? Some say the scourge of the earth. IMO.
Ethanol has a boiling point, (temperature at which it changes state from a liquid to a gas), that is lower than water, allowing for separation of water and alcohol.
Like any other potentially harmful exposures, frequency, concentration and length of exposure are the key facets. I can’t believe any model railroad hobbyist(s), can spend enough time in and around toy train smoke to affect their health one iota.
People with reactive airways - different circumstance. Mild asthmatics MAY have no symptoms or a mild reaction. Moderate asthmatics MAY have no symptoms, mild symptoms or moderate symptoms. Severe asthmatics should use caution, and most know what their triggers are. I can imagine a severe asthmatic getting blindsided by walking into a club’s open house unaware he would be confronted with toy train smoke. In my limited experience, I have never heard of this happening. I welcome any poster to let us know if they’ve seen this scenario unfold.
@West Side Joe posted:I think the purpose of Arnold's post was to better understand the nature of the stuff hobbyists (and their grandkids) are inhaling and being deposited all over their layouts. I think knowing is better than not knowing. And the extent of the responses to his post tells me that there is definite interest in knowing. If you don't want to know, then there's no reason to keep following the thread.
@baltimoretrainworks posted:And it has been discussed ad nauseum here on the forum. No one is posting any new information on the subject just a rehash of a rehash of a rehash so in all reality it benefits no one. In fact none of the replys have any info on the medical effects of the smoke/fog on us humans so it provides no real info to anyone who is interested in the subject.
I really believe they need to have a forum topic called "Not This Crap Again" for just such things.
Jerry
Well, Jerry if you really believe what you say about this thread, then please take West Side Joe's advice and ignore the thread!
I submit that there is NOTHING WORSE on a forum than to complain about other people's threads! If you don't like what people are talking about, move on!
There are plenty of newcomers, folks that didn't even know that something could be hazardous, or those just interested in sharing their experiences (and/or reading other's) that provide valid reasons for discussing a topic again.
Granted, this is an oft requested subject and in a certain sense it is valid.
When you look at the upper right corner of the profile page you will see a large group listing of new members. I imagine many of them have not had an opportunity to inquire about what is old hat here.
For those of us who have experienced waves of similar questions posted we need to remember when we were just beginning.
Demographically, I have been told that the majority of us are in the North East US. Many close to train clubs, frequent train shows and train stores where cross pollination of information readily flows. However others can be hundreds of miles from such places, somewhat isolated.
One of the good/bad aspects of a on line forum is that questions can be posted and the author has a degree of anonymity.
Good because you can ask a question about something you may think you should know, thereby save face.
Bad because instead of a repeated flow of positive in put you are ridiculed. Things are said on line that would never be said face to face.
The horse is most assuredly DEAD, we can stop beating it!!
@Mike CT posted:Ethanol has a boiling point, (temperature at which it changes state from a liquid to a gas), that is lower than water, allowing for separation of water and alcohol.
Yup! That is it exactly....
As you know, Mike, I have spent my adult life dealing with small molecular weight, water soluble molecules......that can go through a dialysis membrane.
Peter
