How to fix pickup problem with 3rd rail engine

I have heard of some people adding a center roller on the tender if it is a steam locomotive!

Alan

First thing, check to see that both rollers are delivering power from the track to the motor. If one of the rollers has become disconnected, that would produce your symptoms. The easiest way to check is to lay the locomotive on its side or back (suitably padded/protected) and connect power to each roller in turn. 

On most brass engines, the wires from the roller pickups are connected to the reverse board or other electronics with wire nuts. These sometimes work their way loose and the connections come off. In fact, I have a brass Weaver engine right now that I need to take apart and reconnect a wire. 

If you do need to add a roller at the tender, it's no big deal. 

Are you sure that it is losing power from the center rail and not from the wheels?

I have found that improving the connection/number of wheels running on the outside rails is required in some installations.

My theory is that intermittent outside rail/wheel connections put a stop command into the control system.

  Adding a roller to a tender should alleviate the issue ever coming up on the loco again, even if you move to a different switch type one day.

  Making its mount slightly adjustable fore & aft would ensure its compatibility even further.

A few questions:

1) How far apart are the pick-up rollers? It is very important that the pick-up rollers be spaced at a greater distance than your biggest "power gap" at turnouts. 

2) What type of track do you have, as sometimes what you describe can happen with Atlas O turnouts.

3) Are both pick-up roller assemblies REALLY picking up power?

4) How do other locomotives operate through the same "trouble spots"?

Hot Water

The pickups are very far apart - the 2-10-2 is a big loco.  I did confirm that both rollers are getting power this morning to try to trouble shoot this.  I was hoping it would be that easy.  I use gargraves and Ross, so the track is pretty good.  No other locos have a problem in any of the five areas.  Because the power is dropping out on areas not involving switches it is not a spacing problem.  I did hear privately from one person that he had a similar problem with a third rail engine and changed out the pickup to a MTH roller. 

Anyone know how to figure out which MTH engine would have  similar roller and roller arm to try a swap out?

In my opinion, the Sunset/3rd Rail pick-up roller assemblies are superior to anyone else's, especially Lionel's. I have changed out the original pick-up rollers on at least three of my Lionel steam locomotive models, and replaced them with the Sunset/3rd Rail pick-up roller assemblies. 

I wonder if you may have one defective/intermittent pick-up roller. Either that, or some wheels are not making good contact with the outside rails. The latest Sunset/3rd Rail models now have electrical wipers on the back sides of some tender wheels. 

While you have it apart, take a look at the common (ground) and ensure it's good.  Your description of behavior is a classic loose common return-intermittent operation.

I always make sure I have two commons-one to the locomotive frame, the other to the tender, tied together, then connected into the ERR board.

Make sure the 'hot' and 'common' at the ERR board are connected securely.  Tether connnections good?

Did you have this issue prior to the ERR install?

Did you set the ERR 'feature' code?

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion Hot Water at least on older 3rdrail engines.  In my opinion at least the engines produced ten years ago(no experience with new products) the 3rdrail pickup rollers are the weak link in a otherwise great product. 

All my 3drail rail engines are over 10 years old and I've had trouble with every engine I've owned.  Being hand made, which includes the pickup rollers no two are alike.  The first issue I noticed is the spring is not heavy enough to handle the current or the rivets holding the two halfs together are very loose. I've had to solder small wire 24 gauge between the the two parts of the assembly so the spring doesn't get weak/deformed due to excessive current.  Another issue is the roller itself, most time there's too much play and I have to use a press or vise grips to lesson the side to side motion of the roller. Also make sure you have a good conductive oil in all moving parts.  

Don't know about current production but I hope 3rdrail is using pickup rollers on the tenders. Would be a real plus for a otherwise great product.

Yeah, 3rd Rail design and "quality" has been all over the map, always. I own them, but

they are always "the weak link". Some have lousy rollers; some are well-designed.

But, so what? Still a nice brass steamer that needs tweaking.

Tender pickup, for sure. Not a great struggle; common sense, patience, some spare rollers

off Mr Bay/Lionel website and fiddling. It will even be close to the electronics, typically.

I have a Weaver brass Little Joe. It's as long as my car. Has 2 pickups. Finds the "gap"

at the end of my layout - 3 switches in a row. A big "roller gap" (above minimum) won't always save you. Sometimes you just need 3.

This is an older 3rd rail engine.

Will putting a pickup on the tender and slicing it into the connector wire right before it attaches to the ERR board also provide power to the engine? 

David

On another note, it might not be the pickup rollers.  3rdrail had issues with ground to the outside rails.  At least one of my engines I had to remove paint from the frame and front and trailing trucks in key spots so you would get a good return path to the outside rails.  The drivers where just not making good contact somewhere.   But you have a big engine so more than likely that's not the problem.

I've added pickups to many tenders, usually for smaller steamers that have closely spaced rollers.  I put a PTC between the tender and the locomotive so prevent the tether from melting in the event of a derailment.  The hardest part is finding a roller that will work with the 3rd Rail tender trucks, they don't have provisions for rollers, I had to "roll my own".  I use a short stack of fiberglass sheet glued together and then secure a roller on the top at the correct spacing for the 3rd Rail stuff.

John can you post a picture of what your describing in your thread above!

Thanks Alan

I can't right now, as those engines weren't mine, and the owners have them back.  If I think of it, the next time I do a 3rd Rail locomotive, I'll post a picture.