How to run engine on battery but control by DCS

The DCS signals are transmitted to the loco through the track. You will have to hook up the track to the TIU and have the track clean everywhere. That kind of defeats the purpose of battery power for the loco.

 The big boy will run on DC power as is. You won't have control of the sound features. So it needs to have the DCS signals to respond to. (It will also respond to DCC now.)

 So some people put the DCS TIU into a trailing car. The new DCS Explorer seems like a better solution for you as it also has built in wifi in a more compact unit with the basic DCS controls.

https://mthtrains.com/50-1035

I have not done any battery installs yet. Search right here on the forum for more.

Thank you for your input.

I guess what I need to know is how I could get a DCS signal to an engine with no power to the track. The proto 3 module in the engine does not have a radio receiver. It can only receive signals through the track. 

Paul

Engineer-Joe posted:

 

  The new DCS Explorer seems like a better solution for you as it also has built in wifi in a more compact unit with the basic DCS controls.

https://mthtrains.com/50-1035

 

???

Paul,

I guess what I need to know is how I could get a DCS signal to an engine with no power to the track.

AFAIK, you cannot do so.

I don't think the DCS explorer would be a solution. It puts the signal through track power plus it would also limit the usability of the DCC control. I want to keep all the usability, the Big Boy has over 25 DCC commands. The Railpro package will give me basic commands and sounds so if I wanted limited commands I would just do that. At the cost of the Big Boy it isn't worth it to downgrade the commands . I would only purchase it if I can find a way to keep the command system as is. 

You mentioned that some people put the DCS TIU in a trailing car. How do they get the signal to the engine? 

Barry,

Thanks. That is want I thought but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss something in my research. 

I was hoping that there was a solution because it is a nice engine.

Paul

Well, your title of the post is

How to run engine on battery but control by DCS

Then you state you'd rather control with DCC and Rail pro. 

Then you state you want to know about a trailing car with DCS.

I believe that the 2 wires that carry the battery power could also carry the DCS signal from the trailing car up to the engine. Again I do not run battery. I have never tried.

Paul,

I want to keep all the usability, the Big Boy has over 25 DCC commands.

You need to be aware that, while an MTH engine may be operated under DCS or DCC, it cannot operate under both at the same time. It's necessary to power down the engine, select DCS or DCC using an actual, physical switch on Premeir (and early Rail King) engines, or move a jumper on newer Rail King engines, and then power back up with only the desired operating system present.

This and a whole lot more about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

This and a whole lot more about DCS WiFi is all in MTH’s “The DCS WiFi Companion 2nd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Barry,

Let me ask you this. Could a TIU be powered by a battery and then direct wired to the engine? If that is workable then the track power would be bypassed. The battery connected to the TIU provides track power and the DCS signal.

Thanks

Paul

Paul,

Let me ask you this. Could a TIU be powered by a battery and then direct wired to the engine? If that is workable then the track power would be bypassed. The battery connected to the TIU provides track power and the DCS signal.

I suppose so, however, see my previous post.

Barry,

Thanks. I do understand that its a choice at power-up of the engine. I needed to know if I could get a signal to the engine without using track power. Since there is no radio receiver in the MTH engine I wanted to see what could be done before I decided to purchased a 1 gauge Big Boy. 

It seems if I powered the TIU by a battery and put it in a trailing boxcar and then direct wired it to the engine making sure to bypass the track power pick-ups that should work. At least it seems that would be a direction to go.

thanks

Paul

Hello??? Hello? Anybody there? Check one, two...…. Is this on?

Engineer-Joe,

I think I came with a solution. Thanks for the idea.

Paul

Maybe you could consider the explorer as you could use an old phone or device to control the engine with the FREE DCS app.

Otherwise you would have to purchase the DCS TIU and remote, just for one engine.

I already have two TIU and handhelds.

About 4 years ago,this would be when i first entered the hobby and had just purchased a full DCS system, i ran into a G scale hobbyist who had integrated a TIU board into a box car locomotive combination with some sort of battery set up(details sketchy). His set up required no track power..i was awed

I was surprised as well to learn that users put TIUs into cars. The economics of it for me didn't add up. I want to run large consists and not have to replace batteries that lose their charge and life. The stainless track prices back then were not so high.

Paul,

It seems if I powered the TIU by a battery and put it in a trailing boxcar and then direct wired it to the engine making sure to bypass the track power pick-ups that should work. At least it seems that would be a direction to go.

I'd also remove the engine's pickup rollers.

How were you planning to operate using DCC?

I was planning on DCS. I have an extra TIU and handheld.

Paul,

Yes, that is an option. But I think for now I will just do DCS since I have extra hardware.

Thanks

Paul

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Joe,

Maybe you could consider the explorer as you could use an old phone or device to control the engine with the FREE DCS app.

That would be difficult, since it would require a 120 VAC power source for the DCS Explorer.

I think Joe is suggesting the OP's battery (DC) would plug into the Explorer.  The Explorer would reside on a boxcar/flatcar/whatever.  The Explorer would connect to the engine's DCS-electronics.  The engine's track-power pickups would be removed/disconnected.

I don't think the dimensions of the Explorer as published on the MTH site (25x35 mm) is correct but I'd think the Explorer is substantially smaller than a TIU and presumably easier to mount on a piece of rolling stock.  Not clear if using the DCS-handheld-remote itself is an absolute "must-have".  That is, if using DCC control that would NOT be via the DCS-handheld-remote either.

Stan,

My bad - I was thinking a tranny to power the explorer. In reality, it would only need 18 volts or so, AC or DC, in any form.

However, running a 2-way WiFi radio as well as an engine, would, I expect, draw down a battery rather quickly.

Regardless, the DCS Explorer limits the operator to  6 amps draw, 3 engines and a paucity of engine features, and excludes all of the engine's soft keys.

As far as size is concerned, the Explorer is a little larger than a WIU and a lot smaller than a TIU. I expect that it would fit on a flat car as a bit of a "wide load". If it could be taken out of it's case, it might even fit on edge in a box car, especially a hi-cube box car.

Yes, to your point I think the "paucity of engine features" using the Explorer (vs. TIU) would be a show-stopper for a lot of guys.

If someone has a photo, I'd like to see how guys actually fit a TIU on/in G-gauge rolling stock.  Are the banana-jack connectors removed?  Is the battery on one car and the TIU electronics on another car?  Etc.

If one is of the "less-is-more" mindset, another approach would be to use the DCS Remote Commander.

A DCSRC which like the Explorer also has a reduced/limited DCS command-set could easily fit in/on a G-gauge car and possibly even with the car carrying the battery.  And a DCSRC can be had for about $20 vs. $100 (?) for an Explorer.

Of course, the DCSRC uses an Infrared (IR) line-of-sight handheld remote.  BUT, as I learned from an earlier OGR thread, there is an interesting modification that converts the DCSRC to wireless-RF operation.

So you replace the battery in the DCSRC handheld remote with a so-called "RF Battery".  No wiring/modification to the DCSRC handheld remote!  When you press a button on the IR remote, the RF battery sends out the command (Speed, Horn, Bell, etc.) as an RF signal.  An RF receiver (the purple dome) receives the RF signal, converts it back to IR, and that then drives the DCSRC receiver.  No wiring/modification to the DCSRC receiver either!

I'm not aware of anyone who has implemented this for RF-wireless battery operation of a G-gauge engine.  But if a reduced DCS command set is acceptable, perhaps this method might be less expensive out-of-pocket.

It was pointed out in an earlier post, but should be emphasized again: DCS requires the track for signal delivery to the loco. The loco decoder can be powered by a battery, but why bother if you still need a clean track connection? Freedom from the track connection is one of the primary reasons that battery powered direct to loco systems are gaining popularity.

Stan, yes the tiu is stripped down and just the main board is used. I haven't heard of anyone using just a portion of the TIU though.

BOB WALKER posted:

It was pointed out in an earlier post, but should be emphasized again: DCS requires the track for signal delivery to the loco. The loco decoder can be powered by a battery, but why bother if you still need a clean track connection? Freedom from the track connection is one of the primary reasons that battery powered direct to loco systems are gaining popularity.

If the engine receives the signal thru it's track's power pick-ups and is wired directly after modifying, how would the board know the difference? Hook the signal up directly to the engine and it does work. The track is just a medium to transport the power and the signal. It can be provided directly.

Engineer-Joe posted:

BOB WALKER posted:

It was pointed out in an earlier post, but should be emphasized again: DCS requires the track for signal delivery to the loco. The loco decoder can be powered by a battery, but why bother if you still need a clean track connection? Freedom from the track connection is one of the primary reasons that battery powered direct to loco systems are gaining popularity.

If the engine receives the signal thru it's track's power pick-ups and is wired directly after modifying, how would the board know the difference? Hook the signal up directly to the engine and it does work. The track is just a medium to transport the power and the signal. It can be provided directly.

You beat me to it

What you do is remove the TIU internals from the case of the shell.  You take your battery power and attach them into the input of Fixed one via a switch to turn the battery off and on.

A hopper car works well for this.  As your battery packs go on the end and the TIU guts can fit in the center at a diagonal angle.  You then run the output off the TIU through a 2 pin harness into the tender.  The wires get attached to the track voltage wires. 

Exact wiring depends on where the PS-2 3V board is.  Bottom line this is done and if you keep wiring consistent, you can use the hopper on any other modified engine to battery power a DCS engine with a DSC Signal.  No track power required.  G

Too further that. I have my G scale engines set up with a rechargeable battery that comes with a on/off switch and a charging port. I can use that set up and have the on off and charging port set up that the hoppers load insert doesn't need to be removed. Access will be from the outside of the hopper. The battery can be charged easily when the car is off the track. The battery provides about 1 1/2 -2 hours of power. 

thanks

Paul

I'm starting to get the picture.  It seems the 2 keys to success are: 1) disconnecting the banana power jacks, and 2) diagonal mounting of the TIU board only (no case).  The TIU board width itself appears to be about 4-1/4" (without the power connectors).

Going a bit off topic but I wonder if this same approach would allow a DCSRC to fit in an O-gauge battery-powered setup.  Without the power jacks the DCSRC board itself is about 2-1/2".  If mounted diagonally, this could fit in an O-gauge boxcar.  

Hmmm. 

How about the IR receiver on the DCSRC?  Won't you have to access this to control the locomotive?  The TIU uses RF for the remote, so it's easier to handle that link.

That's what we've been doing for years...that is gut a TIU and mount it into a USA Trains 50' or 60' boxcar. I use 22.2V 10,000mAh LiPo batteries. Have 1 charged up while the other is in use. A USA T 60' boxcar is like 26" long so plenty of room. Also have used baggage cars.

Usually leave the track pickups in tact just wire thru a 3 position toggle switch so can choose between rail power/off/ fused battery power...That way can run on about any layout.

Been thinking about trying out the Airwire Convrtr 60 which is basically a mini DCC booster command station & radio reciever board. Set the PS3 decoder into DCC mode  and wire the Convrtr to it with 2 wires. Downfall is have to use the Airwire throttle.

http://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_...ries.php#convrtrinfo

gunrunnerjohn posted:

How about the IR receiver on the DCSRC?  Won't you have to access this to control the locomotive?  The TIU uses RF for the remote, so it's easier to handle that link.

Good point.  So I have a plan A and a plan B!

Plan A.  Using the DCSRC Infrared (IR) link as-is, I believe the IR sensor component in the DCSRC receiver can be re-positioned or extended to reside on the roof or some other exposed portion of the boxcar or rolling stock.  As shown in photo, the IR components looks "easy" to work with in that its 3-terminals are readily accessible.  What's interesting with the IR method is coincidentally solves a common complaint about the DCSRC line-of-sight remote.  Apparently the natural tendency is for the user to aim the handheld remote at the moving engine instead of at the stationary DCSRC receiver!  Since the DCSRC receiver would now be moving and reside one car away from the engine, this works to advantage.

Plan B. Modify the DCSRC handheld remote and base-receiver to operate on RF.   The concept was shown earlier using an off-the-shelf IR-to-RF converter system that was proven by another OGR user.  But at $30-40 perhaps this is a bit steep.  So I've added to my rainy-afternoon project list to see if it's practical to get the out-of-pocket down to, say, $5 or so.  This would only be for the DIY-enthusiast but would complement the advances in compact LiPo battery packs.  That is, I don't think a full-blown TIU can every be made to fit with an O-gauge DCS engine.  

I opened up the DCSRC handheld remote and crammed some modeling clay in the cavity as shown.  Then I closed the two halves of the enclosure and re-opened to see the clearance.  There is well over 1 cm of vertical clearance to add what would amount to an RF transmitter to replace the IR transmitter.

For next to nothing you can buy paired RF transmitter and receiver modules.  Here's a transmitter and receiver pair where the transmitter module (less than 1 cm tall) could easily fit in the unused space within the DCSRC handheld remote.  There's much homework to be done but I think there's a glimmer of hope.  Even if not for battery operation of a DCS engine, if this works out it could at least make the DCSRC itself more use-able by addressing the line-of-sight IR limitation.

That's pretty cool, and I think I even have a couple of those around that I bought some time back.   I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Casey Jones2 posted:

That's what we've been doing for years...that is gut a TIU and mount it into a USA Trains 50' or 60' boxcar. I use 22.2V 10,000mAh LiPo batteries. Have 1 charged up while the other is in use. A USA T 60' boxcar is like 26" long so plenty of room. Also have used baggage cars.

Usually leave the track pickups in tact just wire thru a 3 position toggle switch so can choose between rail power/off/ fused battery power...That way can run on about any layout.

Been thinking about trying out the Airwire Convrtr 60 which is basically a mini DCC booster command station & radio reciever board. Set the PS3 decoder into DCC mode  and wire the Convrtr to it with 2 wires. Downfall is have to use the Airwire throttle.

http://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_...ries.php#convrtrinfo

I have a question on your battery voltage. Will smaller size batteries work with this set-up. I currently have 14 and 17 installed. Is the 22.v a better choice to power the TIU and an MTH Big Boy?

Paul

Why limit your self to the DSCRC.  When you can get the full DCS installed.  G

GGG posted:

Why limit your self to the DSCRC.  When you can get the full DCS installed.  G

Because I don't see how you can mount a TIU in O-gauge.  The guys have reported it practical to mount the TIU in G-gauge so that's a done-deal.