Adventures in TMCC & Legacy... Trying to master the 455Khz track signal. I've built the test car, and it is finally working..

Sorry to laugh at your predicament Elliot but I busted up at the sound of the exasperated sigh when you hit the off switch. Hopefully some of the smart guys (GRJ, RJR, etc.) will weigh in and help get things solved for you.

S

Is it just the TC&W thats trying to run away? What about the others? Will they run properly when addressed?

It could be a weak antenna with the TC&W loco. What make is it?

What version legacy are you running 1.3, 1.4 etc?

That's OK Scott, I went through that exercise 4 times prior to shooting that. At least it was still doing it with the camera on. It was nice to be able to time the duration of the event. Previously, I would just flip the switch, hear the trains moving, and quick flip it off. I didn't have trains as well isolated, so I never left them on long enough to really see what happened.

I still haven't figured out where the track power came from, and then 10 seconds later it goes dead, likre it was supposed to.

What is powering you track to allow it to shut off power at 18 seconds?

Rick, the TC&W is a converted Railking with an ERR board. Matt Makens did the install, and I'm pretty sure he lengthened the antenna when he did it, since he had been doing that to a bunch of other locos for me.

There was another engine that wanted to take off, a little further up that track off camera. That was a Lionmaster SD whatever. That was the engine that was used for the first run around the upper deck, and had signal problems in a few spots in that video. The rest were lights only, but where did any of them get their power?

I may still be on a really version of Legacy, I'll have to run down and look. Why does 1.4 sound familiar?

Are you powering the legacy base and the layout at the same time?

Its recommended that the base be powered first so it can get the signal to the track so the engines don't drop into conventional. Given the massive size of your layout I'd probably power the base up and wait a few seconds to power the track.

Is there some a loco or something "bridging" power from another block? The base shouldn't have anything to do with power to the track.

I'm confused about the power question? If your putting power to the track  most TMCC/legacy locos will have lights that come on.

Only the most recent legacy offerings actually stay completely dark until addressed. 

Since you are able to video and I might say very well, to help solve this problem, just video all your connections from the legacy base to track, transformer and what type of engines you operating (legacy, TMCC or conventional) and show all wiring you have to the wall switches etc. The more detail you can give the better the answers will be to help solve this problem.. 

RickO posted:

Are you powering the legacy base and the layout at the same time?

Its recommended that the base be powered first so it can get the signal to the track so the engines don't drop into conventional.

Is there some a loco or something "bridging" power from another block? The base shouldn't have anything to do with power to the track.

 

I've thought that powering the base first may be the answer. Right now bases and track power up on the same switch. That would mean trying to put the power supplies on a delay circuit.

I don't think there was any possibility of trains bridging power to that track. Those 3 supplies cover just the upper deck. I just rewired the lower deck supplies to minimize the number of transitions. Transitions occur at turnouts, a natural center rail break.

There shouldn't be any power there, that zone was unplugged.

Dale Manquen posted:

What is powering you track to allow it to shut off power at 18 seconds?

Dale, I wish I knew. It was acting as if there was a giant charged capacitor that drained after 10 seconds. But there are no capacitors, and the unplugged cords are in the picture above.

woody posted:

Since you are able to video and I might say very well, to help solve this problem, just video all your connections from the legacy base to track, transformer and what type of engines you operating (legacy, TMCC or conventional) and show all wiring you have to the wall switches etc. The more detail you can give the better the answers will be to help solve this problem.. 

Actually Woody, the stills above do show all the connections. I use the classic single wire from the base. When I just use my TMCC base, everything is fine. I hook up the Legacy, and nothing but trouble. That's why it's been on the shelf for the last 4 years.

There is no conventional possible on this layout. Binary control, on or off, no in between. There are about 30 engines on the rails, wide variety, all diesels except my Challenger. Mostly Lionel, some Atlas, and a few conversions.

I'm  guessing you tried a different wall outlet for the Legacy base power adaptor? 

Well, I briefly saw the cab light blink in the BNSF. Shaky signal. Disconnect the track wire and try a jumper from the track post directly to an outside rail.

it is better to power up the base first. It should go through some startup blinks, then a green light and blue Legacy lit.

What is the power source?

One thing I find odd.  A Legacy or TMCC engine when first powered, if it wakes up in conventional, should just start up in neutral.  I'm not sure why one would be trying to move forward unless power is cycled.

Gregg posted:

I'm  guessing you tried a different wall outlet for the Legacy base power adaptor? 

Actually, I haven't. But I know the outlet is good, because I wired the entire house. Beside, the TMCC base has been working off the same outlet for years.

At this point Rick's suggestion of the time delay between signal power up and track power up seems most plausible. I think I'll pull the other 3 plugs from the second set of supplies. Then everything better stay dark. Then I can selectively power up, and see if I only get lights, no sound, no movement.

MartyE posted:

What is the power source?

One thing I find odd.  A Legacy or TMCC engine when first powered, if it wakes up in conventional, should just start up in neutral.  I'm not sure why one would be trying to move forward unless power is cycled.

If theres no track signal they take off when powered up at 18v

RickO posted:

MartyE posted:

What is the power source?

One thing I find odd.  A Legacy or TMCC engine when first powered, if it wakes up in conventional, should just start up in neutral.  I'm not sure why one would be trying to move forward unless power is cycled.

If theres no track signal they take off when powered up at 18v

It seems I am incorrect.  I guess that is only for the first time on a conventional layout.  It was my understanding they came up in neutral.  My apologies.

There appears to be a lot of possible variables here.  If I am following everything properly, the Legacy System has never worked properly for you.    If this is the case, I would set up a test circle/track with its own power supply and test the legacy system there.   If there is still an issue, I would test another train just to confirm and a different power source.   If there is still an issue, then it would appear to be a problem with Legacy unit.

But if the test circle unit works, I would retest using the primary power outlet used for your layout.

If still good, I would attempt to get a power feed from your primary transformer.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the 'Y-Cable' only.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the TMCC Base

With this approach, it will help you identify what works and what cause the system to fail.

Hopefully it turns out to be something simple like a bad connection or "Y-Cable", instead of something with your layout since it looks like you have a complex layout.  But since it worked with your TMCC base, this seams odd.

Two additional test:

If you just hook up the Legacy Base - Leaving the "Y-Cable" and TMCC base disconnected, does that make any difference.

Also you may want to try hooking the TMCC-Base up only - to see if your original configuration still works.

Just my two cents.

OK guys, here's what I found out when I ran downstairs for more testing.

I found two manuals in the file, one for 1.3 the other 1.4. I want to say it came with 1.4, but when I registered it, Lionel sent me the 1.3. If I remember correctly, 1.4 had just come out, and this one had it. So, that's that.

Now for the power situation. I have 6 power supplies located on 2 panels. One on the north side of the room and one on the south side, each with 3, 20A transformers. Actually, they are made up of 3, 6.3V transformers connected in series. This the south panel. The north one is exactly the same.

There are 2, 12 gauge ground wires connecting the panels directly. The command bases are located in the center of the room, away from the power panels. The bases and the power supplies are controlled by a single switch near the entrance to the layout, which you saw in the video.

I unplugged all six supplies, then flipped the power switch. The command bases came on, and I waited about a minute, then I plugged in the first supply on the south side. Trains on that part of the layout were sitting on isolation tracks, and all was quiet. The second supply covered a part of the layout with no trains, still good. The third one, which is contiguous with power districts from the north panel, fired up a bunch of trains, and this after at least 3 minutes of Legacy base power up. I repeated this process on the north panel, trains were flying everywhere. I started to remove the offending engines. I couldn't get to the 10 second threshold without having a disaster. I finally gave up.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem to matter how long the base is powered prior to applying track power. I also know that I have a previously undiscovered and unwanted electrical connection that will have to be found.

All those yellow things don't happen to be Polyfuses that could cause a delayed shutoff as they heat up, are they?

Dale Manquen posted:

All those yellow things don't happen to be Polyfuses that could cause a delayed shutoff as they heat up, are they?

Excellent eye Dale, they are, and that would explain the shutdown after 10 seconds. They are a 6A version, so a few engines running at the same time in one power district would trip them. That's one part of the mystery solved. Thanks, totally slipped my mind. Fresh eyes on the problem really help.

Are you still doing house calls? I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that there may be too much layout for the signal that the base is putting out. Matt Makens took the base home to test it and said it was fine, ran his trains perfectly. I'm dealing with over 3000' of track, and it may just be too much.

BradK posted:

There appears to be a lot of possible variables here.  If I am following everything properly, the Legacy System has never worked properly for you.    If this is the case, I would set up a test circle/track with its own power supply and test the legacy system there.   If there is still an issue, I would test another train just to confirm and a different power source.   If there is still an issue, then it would appear to be a problem with Legacy unit.

But if the test circle unit works, I would retest using the primary power outlet used for your layout.

If still good, I would attempt to get a power feed from your primary transformer.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the 'Y-Cable' only.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the TMCC Base

With this approach, it will help you identify what works and what cause the system to fail.

Hopefully it turns out to be something simple like a bad connection or "Y-Cable", instead of something with your layout since it looks like you have a complex layout.  But since it worked with your TMCC base, this seams odd.

Two additional test:

If you just hook up the Legacy Base - Leaving the "Y-Cable" and TMCC base disconnected, does that make any difference.

Also you may want to try hooking the TMCC-Base up only - to see if your original configuration still works.

Just my two cents.

Sorry Brad, somehow I missed your post in the flood of replies. I like your scientific approach here.

Let's consider the test circle passed. As I just mentioned in my reply to Dale, Matt did that test and said it was good. TrainroomGary suggested that I send it to Lionel for repair, but I'm skeptical about that, as I suspect that they too would say it's fine. This has happened with a number of my engines as well, simple track test out fine, my layout crap.

I have never tried Legacy base only. That's an easy one, yank the cable and power up. Going back to TMCC has always worked, that's easy too.

Moonman posted:

Well, I briefly saw the cab light blink in the BNSF. Shaky signal. Disconnect the track wire and try a jumper from the track post directly to an outside rail.

it is better to power up the base first. It should go through some startup blinks, then a green light and blue Legacy lit.

Yeah Carl, I saw that too. I think it was just a result of the TC&W pushing on it. More of an incidental glitch than indicative of a new issue. We both know that I have signal issues under just TMCC on a good day. BTW, I did do a test run this afternoon prior to my Legacy foray, and I have the lower level signal problems pinned down to some specific spots. A glimmer of hope.

It took me a few rereads to get what you had in mind with the ground wire, but I get it now. Interesting, and another easy experiment.

Elliot,

  I find this a very interesting topic........ hope the remedy is located in a short period.  You stated the third power supply on the South panel is contiguous with districts from the North panel, correct?  Just a thought, but with this arrangement between panels, what about any back feed of power between the power supplies of South/North panels and related trackage ?  How much assist would it be should you meter the power feeds from the various power supply circuits and check for spikes, occilations, etc. ?

Just thinking...... sometimes a dangerous thing...!!

Jesse 

Yes Jesse, that's what I'm going to have to hunt down. It shouldn't be too difficult though, because the north and south panels only meet in a couple small spots. I just need to see if the feeders are on the right districts and are not somehow overlapping. Fortunately, I just reorganized the south panel and the north one was done some months back, so now they match my master list. Before I try to delve into diagnostics, a visual inspection may reveal the problem.

The only tool I have is a meter, no scope. Actually, a car with a light may be all the tool I need to find this. Just by plugging in one supply at a time, if there is an overlap, that should expose the location. Very low tech.

I love a good techno-mystery. Just not on my layout. In fact I know that my own layout has "leakage" in places between blocks but fortunately not enough to cause a problem. If it did I would be in a lot of trouble because I neglected to document my layout wiring with a useful schematic. While I know that there are useful on-line tools available for modeling a train layout as a circuit, I would be willing to pay for one that is model train specific. Especially if it had a feature that could estimate signal integrity for DCS and TMCC/Legacy.

It may have something to do with the fact that Legacy requires signal on both outside rails and you have all of yoru outside rails isolated to run the detection circuit and no signal is being transmitted to one rail effectively cutting your signal in half. I used that exact legacy base to successfully run trains on my 16 X 58 layout for a weekend with no issues. try connecting your detection rails to the legacy base and see if it works

That's an interesting theory Matt. I don't know if you ever noticed, but on the entire lower level, I have installed .1u capacitors at all the gaps. Those are specifically to allow the signal through, without actually "polluting" the rail with ground, so it can still be used for detection.

Of course, it was the upper deck where all the chaos occurred. I never installed the caps, because things were running very well under TMCC. That's a big project to go back and solder up all those caps. I'm hoping the solution lies elsewhere.

OK So I'm not totally crazy.  I checked with Rudy who contacted Jon...

He stated that yes the R2LC, R4LC boards do start in FWD after a long power interruption after the initial neutral start up in conventional but the RCMC board will start in neutral after a prolonged power interruption all the time.  This changed was made because of the feedback from this forum.  I have yet to find a manaul though that states this.

Good to know that Marty, but for my purposes, I need to get some signal out to them so they stay put when I turn the layout on.

Marty, What's a RCMP board?   The way I understand it... A TMCC engine will start up in neutral conventional  one time only if it  had been   previously run in command mode.   After that TMCC engines in conventional   always  start in forward but.. what's a RCMP   board.

I only have one outside rail connected to my Legacy 990 system and it works just fine here. I was going to use the other rail for controls and signals as you are doing. Of course your layout and Matt's layout are much, much larger. Mine is only 6'x16' with 2 loops of Atlas track and some spurs & sidings. It was wired for DCS, Legacy was added later by connecting just the one wire to my TIU output commons. Probably not much help here, but just thought I would mention it. Wish I had more to offer in the way of better help.

Scope the output of your Legacy base and make sure youre getting the full 1 volt sine wave. I think I was supposed to do that

I think I might grab  an  Old Lionel transformer,Legacy base & cab-2 . 2 sections of track,  a engine and test at the workbench or upstairs.    Everything else off.

Matt Makens posted:

Scope the output of your Legacy base and make sure youre getting the full 1 volt sine wave. I think I was supposed to do that

Yep dude, you're the one with the scope. I ain't got one, and I'm not sure I would know how to use it anyway.

full 1 volt sine wave  ???

I see 6.3V peak-to-peak for my Legacy Base with no load on the Track output.

Gregg posted:

Marty, What's a RCMP board? 

It's the new Legacy electronics package, but it's an RCMC.

Elliot,

   Hay buddy are you running DCS also or just TMCC/Legacy?  If you are running DCS also simply connect the Legacy drop to the out Black Channels on the TIU and make sure you use the opposite outside rail for, your main Legacy drop.  My Multi level layout runs perfectly using Marty F's technique for Legacy/DCS, I know your layout is a lot bigger, but it's worth a try.

PCRR/Dave 

Sorry Dave, no DCS. 100% TMCC.

OK guys, I've done a few of the tests you suggested.

The Rick test: power base, then wait to power track     fail

The Brad test: straight Legacy, no "Y" cable       fail

The Carl test: straight Legacy, "U" post direct to rail      fail

The Carl test, Matt variation: "U" post direct to rail with both outside rails tied together     fail

The more I try things, the more I'm leaning toward Dale's diagnosis of a weak output on the base. Although, some of these tests were done with the engine in close proximity to the Legacy signal source. Is it possible that I have something near the base interfering with the signal?

With a layout your size, I think you need a spare base, that would answer that question.