LionChief Gateway Project (3-29-21 Update)

JD2035RR posted:

Ryaninspiron posted:

I was wearing my LC Gateway board with a battery all mounted to a lanyard.

That alone must have alerted his curiosity Can you elaborate or do you have any pictures of your LC Gateway Board fixed to your lanyard?

 

Congrats, nice to hear positive news!

Probably, at least I hope it did . There is not much to go into, I took the board that has been running my gateway code all along and used a screw terminal breakout board as a mounting plate for the Lipo battery. Then I also added a relay with a status light to show something physical getting triggered besides just the alpha-numeric display.

Eventually I will get some all in one circuit boards produced so I don't need to use off the shelf (more expensive) components anymore. This board of mine is like an early engineering prototype right now. It works but its ugly. Plus I still have unknowns about the limits of the Bluetooth radios with regards to multi loco control. I will know more once I get my second LC loco tomorrow.

The hardware I use is practically changing by the week these days. I already have a small pile of components that turned out to be incompatible with different combinations of the train, the remote, or the app so far. Adventuring into the unknown is fun but also not cheep!

Update 1-28-2020

Track power control for postwar via LC remote works! Video here: https://youtu.be/ZABna2tu9bE

I also picked up my new Union Pacific NW2 LionChief+ loco from TrainLand and am ready to start developing consists using the LC App and Remote.

Excellent news. Thanks!

Landsteiner posted:

Excellent news. Thanks!

Glad you like it.

I do have a bug to work out though. I haven't looked at the output with an oscilloscope yet but it seems my board likes fresh ac power straight off the transformer (aka a pure sine wave, not the chopped up version modern control boxes put out). I used the same technique as other transformer control boards, so it appears to not be too happy when you try powering it off another transformer's output. I am sure I will probably be able to work that out though.

For now it prefers direct transformer connections like Lionel's Powerhouse for example. It may also work as is with postwar transformers, I am pretty sure they also have pure sine wave outputs.

Time for a little progress report.
1. Still no contact from Lionel, I still need to send that email.
2. I managed to blow up one of my Bluetooth gateway boards during my track power project work. I can only figure some wire got crossed and severely overloaded the module. That set me back over a week. Still nervous to hook a new board back to the same circuit. Especially until I take some precise measurements. Post-War track power board will have to stay on hold until I do a little root cause analysis.
3. I joined a local train club, Train Masters of Babylon. Great people with a huge layout in a 4000 sq ft rented warehouse space. I already got to run my LionChief LIRR M7 at a public open house. Had a great time doing it. It was awesome to see the kids chasing my train along the subway line into a miniature Penn Station. I also got more ideas to try. Such as adding motorized doors to my LionChief M7 train. 
4. Motorized M7 Door project. Since my M7 comes with a lever to slide the doors open I figured I could add a motor to it and add control of it to the LionChief remote. Attached is a video of the preliminary results. I still need to add the Bluetooth control from the LionChief remote but it should be easy. trying to figure out a possible tether system to avoid dedicated Bluetooth boards for this in each passenger car though.

Let me know if I should open a new thread to show how I did it.

5. Thanks to some inspiration from running on the club layout I decided I wanted to make some ATC (automatic train control) system. Basically autopilot for LionChief. but it will be done to prevent actual train collisions on a large scale layout like the one at my new train club. No matter what control system the other person on the line is using, my train (though a Bluetooth gateway project connection to the layout block signal lines) will automatically stop in front of red signals and slow down in front of yellow ones. To try this out I bought several accessory activator FasTracks to create the block signal system on an oval track.(Perfectly the same size as a poker table it turns out). Soon I will hook up the same gateway board I already have been working on. This will allow me to prevent the collision of two trains on the same line running at different speeds.

6. I also would like to make a infared object triggered train speed syncronizer. It would either suggest or force an even spacing on two trains in on the same line. in suggestion mode it could simply act as a tool to assist drivers with spacing, but the force mode could also do it for you. I would just have to count the time since the end of one train to the start of the next to get a follow time.

Kinda like the adaptive cruise control ..on today’s vehicles. Great thread ! Love the doors !

Nessmuck posted:

Kinda like the adaptive cruise control ..on today’s vehicles. Great thread ! Love the doors !

Exactly. It came to mind when I was sharing a single loop line during an open house run session with another member of the train club. We had one close call and one very slight rear end collision resulting in a minor derail. It happened because we got a little distracted with a conversation, no damage, but I thought it would be cool to flip a switch and go hands off without stopping my train on a siding. Now that I have two LC locomotives I can test this out at home. I plan on using that same little loop track I set up to test it out. My goal is to have my M7 space itself evenly apart front and back from another freight train on the line.

And thanks, I also plan on syncing the door closing action up with the door closing sound made by the announcement button.

@Ryaninspiron, can you share what you learned about the BLE protocol being used, such as what you are sending along to the 0xE20A39F4 , 0x08590F7E service and characteristic combination?

bmoran4 posted:

@Ryaninspiron, can you share what you learned about the BLE protocol being used, such as what you are sending along to the 0xE20A39F4 , 0x08590F7E service and characteristic combination?

A very loaded question. At the moment I am trying to do some bridge building with Lionel but I'm also trying to get their exact feelings on the project. As some others have mentioned I want to avoid triggering an MTH style reaction to all this. 

In my opinion sharing is caring. Now considering that they have opened up the TMCC and Legacy protocol in the past, I do not yet see a reason why they might avoid the same treatment for LionChief.

I also would like to avoid the technical deep dive on this thread since things would get way too technical for most members to follow. BLE has a lot of tricks to it.

For now I am focusing my efforts on doing things that are supposed to be impossible.

Next priority on my list is dual locomotive control from the LionChief app. This has been delayed due to a bit of a communications issue between two of my modules. I am trying to keep all of this on a microcontroller level to avoid any computers including the raspberry pi. 

I am also adding Bluetooth control to the e-unit, couplers, and lights on a postwar locomotive from 1954. I figured it would be a neat idea to leave the original e-unit installed but trigger it with Bluetooth independently of track voltage.

My only suggestion to not lose sight of the relatively more important (at least in my mind ) goals.  Using the universal remote to talk to TMCC/Legacy locomotives is number one. Unifies the product line over the last 25 years.   Getting the universal remote and the app to talk with non-command (prewar and postwar, MPC) type locos would be the second priority.  Unifies the product line over the last 120 years.   Adding speed control to LionChief only locos would be number three.  The other items are lesser priorities (although good fun and worth doing at some point).

OMG, this is great, a super job, my friend, well done!    Feels like it's starting to turn into Legacy & LCS like features ( and then some) for LionChief.  Way cool

Landsteiner posted:

My only suggestion to not lose sight of the relatively more important (at least in my mind ) goals.  Using the universal remote to talk to TMCC/Legacy locomotives is number one. Unifies the product line over the last 25 years.   Getting the universal remote and the app to talk with non-command (prewar and postwar, MPC) type locos would be the second priority.  Unifies the product line over the last 120 years.   Adding speed control to LionChief only locos would be number three.  The other items are lesser priorities (although good fun and worth doing at some point).

Thanks for keeping me in line lol.

Getting the LionChief remote to speak to TMCC locomotives will be easy enough because the train club I just joined has a legacy system. Unfortunately according to my reading I will need to acquire an LCS SER2 module to do legacy control since the port on the back of the legacy base only supports up TMCC level commands. At least according to what I've read.

I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned.

Also now that I have a LC+ locomotive, I can see that the firmware has a few more neat features I can take advantage of in the LC+ remote. For example I could repurpose the built-in volume control as an accessory selection tool while in drive mode via my gateway.

Casey_Jones posted:

OMG, this is great, a super job, my friend, well done!    Feels like it's starting to turn into Legacy & LCS like features ( and then some) for LionChief.  Way cool

Why thank you very much, That's what I am going for. 

"I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned."

Absolutely can, no problem.  Legacy locos can be controlled by the original 1996 TMCC command base and cab-1 .

Ryaninspiron posted:

Landsteiner posted:

My only suggestion to not lose sight of the relatively more important (at least in my mind ) goals.  Using the universal remote to talk to TMCC/Legacy locomotives is number one. Unifies the product line over the last 25 years.   Getting the universal remote and the app to talk with non-command (prewar and postwar, MPC) type locos would be the second priority.  Unifies the product line over the last 120 years.   Adding speed control to LionChief only locos would be number three.  The other items are lesser priorities (although good fun and worth doing at some point).

Thanks for keeping me in line lol.

Getting the LionChief remote to speak to TMCC locomotives will be easy enough because the train club I just joined has a legacy system. Unfortunately according to my reading I will need to acquire an LCS SER2 module to do legacy control since the port on the back of the legacy base only supports up TMCC level commands. At least according to what I've read.

I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned.

Also now that I have a LC+ locomotive, I can see that the firmware has a few more neat features I can take advantage of in the LC+ remote. For example I could repurpose the built-in volume control as an accessory selection tool while in drive mode via my gateway.

Legacy will respond to tmmc commands but ideally you would want to use the legacy protocol on legacy locos and the TMCC Protocol on TMCC locos. You can send either information through the SER2 or with the WiFi module and the free LCS LE monitor. The thing we haven’t figured out is to get a legacy command initiated from a 3rd party won’t update the speed graph on the cab-2. I think someone said the iCab app would but I personally don’t have the app to verify. If that is true then it’s capable of updating the Cab-2 via serial commands but not sure if the command needed. 

Landsteiner posted:

"I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned."

Absolutely can, no problem.  Legacy locos can be controlled by the original 1996 TMCC command base and cab-1 .

Thanks, glad to hear it.

zhubl posted:

Legacy will respond to tmmc commands but ideally you would want to use the legacy protocol on legacy locos and the TMCC Protocol on TMCC locos. You can send either information through the SER2 or with the WiFi module and the free LCS LE monitor. The thing we haven’t figured out is to get a legacy command initiated from a 3rd party won’t update the speed graph on the cab-2. I think someone said the iCab app would but I personally don’t have the app to verify. If that is true then it’s capable of updating the Cab-2 via serial commands but not sure if the command needed. 

I have done a little research into the 9 bit legacy commands and it seems that if I can talk to the base with 9 bits of data then I should have no problem sending legacy data directly. I'm not sure if it makes sense to worry about sending Legacy format commands from an LC remote since I would already be short on input buttons. I wonder if I am sending TMCC commands to a legacy locomotive via serial, can you still send legacy commands from the cab-2 remote at the same time? Does the locomotive have to switch modes or anything when going between TMCC and Legacy commands? 

As for updating the speed on the cab-2 then I would say if the iCab app can do it, then it can be reverse engineered at least.

After pulling an all nighter, I got the dual Lionchief  locomotive code running. Using my gateway it is now possible to run multiple(up to 20 in theory) locomotives at once from the Official Lionchief remote app.

Video update coming once I get some sleep.

Wahoo!   

looking forward to the video!

It works! Dual locomotive control from the LionChief app is up and running!

I also figured out synchronization of speed at least at the low end. Arguably a very useful feature.

Theoretically I can do 20 LionChief locomotives like this. No idea how many will work in reality. 

Video below.

youtu.be/mYDu9uKFSws

Let me know if you guys like it.

Just saw the video,  nice work

Is their Anyway you can control each loco independently?   For example, even on a bedroom/spare room layout, you may have a switcher working a siding and a passenger train running around an outer loop at the same time, each going at different speeds and directions.   Also and horns, bells, and crew talk independently?  Kinda like the BlueRail app,   Or is that a Lionel app re-write?

Thanks 

Casey_Jones posted:

Just saw the video,  nice work

Is their Anyway you can control each loco independently?   For example, even on a bedroom/spare room layout, you may have a switcher working a siding and a passenger train running around an outer loop at the same time, each going at different speeds and directions.   Also and horns, bells, and crew talk independently?  Kinda like the BlueRail app,   Or is that a Lionel app re-write?

Thanks 

 

I absolutely can and that is no problem at all. I will build it into the LionChief app via my LC gateway. That's literally the next thing I'm working on at this moment.

I am thinking of automatically hitting the horn on the loco that is currently selected via some sort of button combination.

I only did it this way to demonstrate my new speed match feature. This is also separate from the automatic adaptive cruise control project I mentioned earlier.

As soon as I have separate locomotive control setup for the app and remote (when running multiple locos). I am going to do some major work on an internal post-war LC upgrade module. For now I'm going to have it utilize the e-unit (as is) for reverse selection.

Custom wiring allows me to control the e unit separately from the motor. I should also be able to check the position of it in software. I mostly think these units are cool piece of engineering and would really be a waste to take them out if it's working. But also they offer a interesting solution to a complicated problem. Plus if I let the e-unit do its thing I don't have to spend any effort designing a circuit to replace its functionality. Plus it's interesting to use Bluetooth to control a electromechanical device like that. I do love blending new and old tech.

I'll also add light and electric coupler control via LionChief.

As for legacy control with a LionChief remote, I still need to get some Hands-On time with the legacy base at the train club and I haven't gotten the opportunity yet.

This is a very commendable achievement for LC operation. The only other similar multiple engine approach I know of is the multiple throttle screen in the BlueRail Trains app.

BOB WALKER posted:

This is a very commendable achievement for LC operation. The only other similar multiple engine approach I know of is the multiple throttle screen in the BlueRail Trains app.

Thanks, it means a lot to me to hear that. I'd say I came a long way these last few weeks. I still have more ideas to try. One upcoming idea is to add control of servo accessories to my LC gateway board and additional moduals. I have some 8 and 16 channel i2c servo drivers that would allow almost infinite expandability. I already added servo powered doors to my LIRR M7 LC train.

I just had the ultimate stroke of madness. For my own personal mad science experiment, I decided I want to make a bluetooth consist of my postwar 1954 Alco AA locomotives #2032 AND the 2016 LionChief Plus matching B unit. http://www.lionel.com/products...unit-diesel-6-82304/ 

The craziest part is that it may require me to involve a universal remote in hotspot mode just to get the RF link. That is in the case that this B unit is from the pre Bluetooth LionChief world. I'm not sure (I think the locos only gained Bluetooth in 2017). I would like to avoid having to reverse engineer the older RF LionChief protocol as well.

To make this all happen I would add a DIY LC+ board to the postwar locos, and then I would use my new synced drive mode to run them as a consist. I would combine a MagnaTraction Pullmor motor with a modern dual traction tire dual drive motor LC+ B unit. Imagine the pulling power! I could probably haul full scale bricks around .

I would have to develop a module that also allows me to establish common speed settings but my DIY LC+ board would also easily allow 255 speed steps if I want to. It will use the same chopped waveform technique the ZW-L uses. (I already used that method on my track power module documented in video here https://youtu.be/ZABna2tu9bE 

Anyway this is an example of the crazy ideas I get looking at the train store's inventory! I considered just buying new LC+ Alco AA units but I certainly do not have that kind of money to spare, and plus besides what do I really gain besides fancy sounds? My 1954 locos have ElectroCouplers already, and soon they will have LC+ Bluetooth control. 

I would love to be adding the LC remote control of Legacy locos but I still have not been allowed to tap the serial port on my club's Legacy base. Also not owning a legacy loco adds more delay since I would need another member to lend me theirs.

@Ryaninspiron, As stated in my email to you, I have the Legacy bits (both hardware and software) you need and willing to help out.

bmoran4 posted:

@Ryaninspiron, As stated in my email to you, I have the Legacy bits (both hardware and software) you need and willing to help out.

That reminds me I forgot to send my response to you, I will get back on that.

And thanks, we will be in touch.

Interesting hack. It will be interesting to see how interested Lionel is in this. My suspicion is Lionel is operating on the old IBM model, where they have tiers of products that are incompatible with each other, so if you want more you have to upgrade to an entirely different line, including buying new software packages and tools and such. So if you for example are running LC or LC+ engines, today if you decide to switch to legacy you basically either keep operating those engines under LC controller, or run them under conventional control via the legacy powermaster. The thought being  that once you buy the legacy command base, you would upgrade to legacy versions of the LC engines and spend more $$$$ on them for the convenience of running them in legacy mode.  It would be great for those who have LC and conventional engines to be able to run them from the LC remote, and it would also be great if people have the TMCC/Legacy command base to be able to talk to LC/LC+ engines they have or buy, be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

bigkid posted:

Interesting hack. It will be interesting to see how interested Lionel is in this. My suspicion is Lionel is operating on the old IBM model, where they have tiers of products that are incompatible with each other, so if you want more you have to upgrade to an entirely different line, including buying new software packages and tools and such. So if you for example are running LC or LC+ engines, today if you decide to switch to legacy you basically either keep operating those engines under LC controller, or run them under conventional control via the legacy powermaster. The thought being  that once you buy the legacy command base, you would upgrade to legacy versions of the LC engines and spend more $$$$ on them for the convenience of running them in legacy mode.  It would be great for those who have LC and conventional engines to be able to run them from the LC remote, and it would also be great if people have the TMCC/Legacy command base to be able to talk to LC/LC+ engines they have or buy, be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

Thanks for the feedback.

If we look where it got IBM (bad for consumer subscription business models way beyond simple software support maintenance fees, and buying companies like the weather channel to stay relevant) I am personally hoping that Lionel will choose to build brand loyalty instead. Performing good will gestures with it's customers such as allowing a bridge like this to keep people like myself growing the collection without a bump in the road. For example my LC locomotive does not even offer convention control. (I am working on a Bluetooth based fix for that as well). I think it's silly to maintain desolate islands of isolation between product lines and I get the feeling Lionel is changing away from that as well, Simply based on the existence of LC+2.0 at least.

Even with the ability to run the LC locos with a legacy remote should not act as a deterrence from buying a legacy version, The features and build quality/detail improvements seem to me like good enough reasons to buy the same model in Legacy. It's the same force that pushed me to get the LC+ locomotive over the LC one, better speakers, better motors, ElectroCouplers, and all metal chassis/wheel trucks. Now I want an LC+2.0 loco because it has the promise of going to Legacy. Legacy still offers a degree of control way beyond LC. I can appreciate that extra control. I may not be able to afford it today, but at least I would like to be able to use one remote to control all my existing trains. Especially if I do make that relatively big leap into the deep end of the pool know as Legacy. I just shouldn't be punished by choosing to upgrade.

When I bought my first train a several months ago I picked Lionel because theirs were the first model trains I ever saw as a child. I got an attachment to them as a brand. now lately I personally like to by from brands make choices I agree with. Especially for the customers with some technical know how. A reason why I now like to avoid buying from a brand like MTH, they are actively preventing the expansion of their own hardware.(lawsuits and the downright refusal to open the TIU to connection from other devices.)

If Lionel makes the right moves, I know I would be a lifelong customer to them.

This is getting REALLY interesting and showing a lot of promise, I look forward to seeing the updates.   I can appreciate the detail that legacy offers, but...I'm not in that tax bracket. I really like the idea of an LCS version for the LC, LC2.0 crowd as it provides more play value IMO.  

Casey_Jones posted:

This is getting REALLY interesting and showing a lot of promise, I look forward to seeing the updates.   I can appreciate the detail that legacy offers, but...I'm not in that tax bracket. I really like the idea of an LCS version for the LC, LC2.0 crowd as it provides more play value IMO.  

Thanks! And I know, similar position with legacy right now. LC+ is more my speed right now. Legacy definitely seems like the destination, one when you want everything to work as realistically as possible.

 As an upcoming features preview, here is my workbench for my future post-war to LionChief+ conversion project. (1954)

Notice the perfectly sized circuit board sitting where the horn battery usually sits in the Alco A unit. All that's left is to solder the components and put some finishing touches on the code. (And make a mounting bracket for the board.) I already replaced all the old mold covered wire with some new silicone insulated 20 gauge. I also added a dedicated e-unit power wire.

Have been following your posts and I am excited to see your progress.  I have believed ( as d oes Lionel and  MTH) that the key to attracting new members is integrating the smart phone with train operation.  I see you have gone beyond simple train functions and can control accessories.  I also believe that as great as Legacy and DCS are , the price point is way too high for entry level hobbyists.  I am sure that manufacturers don't want to cut into their legacy product with a low cost alternative  but I think it could be made up in volume.  Consider that you can buy a remote controlled drone with camera function for under $50.  I have written several articles for my local club on this subject. I am attempting to explain the fun factor involved in wireless control and why that is the future of this hobby.  I  don't have the knowledge to reverse engineer LC+ but if you put out some basic instructions or sold a kit , I am sure there would be a lot of interest.

Keep up the good work Art

Art Lites posted:

Have been following your posts and I am excited to see your progress.  I have believed ( as d oes Lionel and  MTH) that the key to attracting new members is integrating the smart phone with train operation.  I see you have gone beyond simple train functions and can control accessories.  I also believe that as great as Legacy and DCS are , the price point is way too high for entry level hobbyists.  I am sure that manufacturers don't want to cut into their legacy product with a low cost alternative  but I think it could be made up in volume.  Consider that you can buy a remote controlled drone with camera function for under $50.  I have written several articles for my local club on this subject. I am attempting to explain the fun factor involved in wireless control and why that is the future of this hobby.  I  don't have the knowledge to reverse engineer LC+ but if you put out some basic instructions or sold a kit , I am sure there would be a lot of interest.

Keep up the good work Art

 

 

Thanks for the detailed response, I'm happy to have earned your feedback. Comments like this are pushing me to dedicate more time to this project. And I hope Lionel sees things that way too. a path to more features in LC, and not as some threat to legacy.

At the end of the day I have not actually changed the core features of LC or LC+. I cannot force specific  announcements/CrewTalks to happen, and I can't just add features like a Mars light to LC locos.(at least without replacing all the electronics). If people want those features they get Legacy, it's pretty simple. If they are happy with what they get features wise on LC but want to do more with their locos, they should be able to get the LC gateway. The ability to do more/integrate more functionality would be a good reason to buy even more LC/LC+ locos.

If I am extremely lucky this could end up becoming an official thing. No matter what, I would love the community to benefit from this concept. I certainly have been putting a lot of time into this. Trust me though, I am just as excited about what I am doing as everyone else seems to be. I love it. Hopefully it can be a win-win situation for everyone including Lionel.

Anyway thanks for the encouragement.

A new progress update on my postwar upgrade project. The train motor control board is now soldered together and the initial  testing is proving positive.

I had some fun using the pen on my phone and for the technically minded folks out here watching I have added some notes explaining the layout of my postwar motor controller. It is very simple and it will rely on the e-unit for direction control for now (but that is a decision I made for fun). My e-unit works so I am keeping it in.

As you can see by the picture I had some fun with it. Basically everything is labled.

As of the early hours this morning I had a breakthrough on my postwar speed control code. I have not checked my work with the o-scope yet, but it appears to work much more accurately now whether you use chopped wave power from a control box like the CW80 / ZW-L or pure sine like from the PH180.

I technically can get about 1024 speed steps too. This will help when matching speeds to LionChief locos for my crazy consist plans.

Also for @Landsteiner I am scheduled for work with a Legacy system this Saturday morning. hopefully things go well.

I did a sort video demo of my custom hardware controlling that postwar loco. (Not Bluetooth yet)

https://youtu.be/I-9FbBxk7Hw

I still need to add some more hardware for ElectroCouplers and light control though. The Bluetooth code portion of this is almost ready.

Looking good!

Can't wait to see it with the Bluetooth control 

Nice work, as usual! Put me down as a beta tester for one of the postwar conversion boards 😉 I really like that you retain the e-unit.  I would probably install the board with a switch to run conventional or via the board, like LC+ does now.

Just thinking ahead a step or two here...

Will there be a way to update your board if Lionel comes out with an app update that changes how data is sent from app/remote to engine? I’d hate to see an LC app update negate all of your progress so far. 

Casey_Jones posted:

Looking good!

Can't wait to see it with the Bluetooth control 

 

Thanks, and that will be done soon. should be ready this weekend. Mostly going to be based on my LC Gateway Code.

I'm glad I got this portion of the hardware straightened out first. I had an issue where I tried using a relay to trigger the e-unit with a relay but it ended up drawing too much power from my board. So I ended up building another solid state solution from scratch. (As a bonus, the custom solution actually takes less space anyway.)

And as we can see from the video, a section of my e-unit drum is dirty so I would like to fix that too. I already tried cleaning it with alcohol once but it seems the fingers of the e-unit itself might be dirty. Maybe some super fine sandpaper can solve that.

After I get Bluetooth up and running I have to build an e-unit position detection circuit to know if the train is currently in forward, reverse, or neutral. This will be critical.