If you were going to build a layout designed to run 14 hours a day...

It would cease to be a hobby then, wouldn't it?

You Might want to Contact Tom Groff the owner of the Choo Choo Barn , He certainly would be able to answer that as his Pubic layout runs that kind of a marathon.

 

http://www.choochoobarn.com/

 

3 rail

Railking Imperial Steamer and maybe a Railking Scale diesel, For track for something with rounded top, not rail shaped. (See the thread on track and wheel wear)

You don't want the noise of RealTrax or Fastrack.

And $5,000 is 2 inexpensive trains on inexpensive track using minimum transformer power with little to no scenery.

Double main30 X 60 is a LOT of track.

Does it really have to run that long?  Legacy Station in atlanta has an overhead G gauge setup.  Two parallel tracks with two trains running in opposite directions.  The customer, or their child, presses a big red button which sends the train on a 1 minute run, then stops. I think something like that would be more appropriate than a 14 hour non-stop run.

I think your thought is more realistic than what the client thinks!  

As difficult as it may be to confront the person, and to potentially turn away work at the same time, the best course is to correct the client's expectations at the outset.  If you indulge them, you will be blamed when the impossible doesn't materialize.  Then the client is unhappy AND you lose money and reputation.

No way is this a $5,000 job.

 

I'd walk unless you want trouble.

 

Gerry

Williams locos altered for forward only operation

 

3 rail K-line Shadow rail

 

Rolling stock monthly,locos weekly

 

Use Railsounds 4 added to dummies or the loco

 

Conventional automated with relays. Add timers so the train start and stop and do not run continuous, Not only is it unrealistic but it wears out the locos fast.

 

Cost depends on what is on the layout,could be done cheaper than 5 Gs or a lot more.I am not really fond of shelf layout due to noise and they are hard to get at,but they can be done.

 

Here are a few pics of the layout I am building in a 30X60 room. then it goes through a wall into another room about 30X30.  It has 5 main lines and a trolley line on 3 levels. Everything will be forward only automated with 3 trains per loop,except the one with the passing siding,which will have 4 trains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Soft start,stop relay board with whistle sequence circuit and time delay between trains. Train run 1 at a time on the loop with relays from a second board.

 

This relay board routes trains one at a time for 2 loops.

 

 

Here is how 2 run 2 trains per loop if desired

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=612&categoryId=

 

Dale H

Cant seem to get rid of this duplicate sorry

#1- Bail.

#2- If that's not an option, INSIST on triple or quadruple the price.

#3- If you're still on the hook, either go Williams for 0 gauge with tubular track, or LGB for G gauge with solid rail. These are the only brands that can handle the wear & tear

#4- No matter which way you go, this is not going to end well.

#5- See #1

Dale, that's quite an impressive project, and an interesting space!  Can you share more?  Will/is this location publically accessible? 

Nothing is impossible for the man who does not have to do it himself.

Couple of thoughts, FWIW...

 

I've done a handful of these commercial overhead deals.  One thing you want to be sure to consider is the safety of your patrons.  For which you will need to insure that trains that leave the track for any reason do not end up taking a free-fall onto a patron's skull;IOW, fencing, safety wire(s), wide shelving, speed control,...any or all of the above plus any other thoughtful consideration.  Believe me (first installation, reviewed by insurer after-the-fact) this must be done...and will add to cost/installation time.  And be sure that your work is approved by the customer and his insurer in writing.

 

The other thing is that someone MUST be desigated responsible for regular maintenance.  It sounds like this client may be interested in the trains only superficially, not wanting to have to spend another dime or minute maintaining them.  The trains themselves are not part of the stores saleable product.  I'm sorry, but this also sounds like a disaster-of-neglect in the making.  One of my clients had his G scale train installation run periodially (timer-controlled) during store hours, 6 days/week.  He 'assured' me that his staff would keep an eye on them, maintain them per my written instructions.  One year later I was called to the store...train dead on the tracks.  Most of the car axle bearings were shot...never lubed.  The employee designated to take care of the trains (running on a ledge in the huge showroom 16' above the floor!) had left the company.

If your client is unwilling to take responsibility for the maintenance of this operating display...that requires regular attention/cleaning/inspection/maintenance...he should either dump the idea, or be willing to pony up some budgeted money for hiring this service.

 

Thirdly, I doubt...I seriously doubt...that the owner and his employees will tolerate the constant noise of the train running continuously.  It's simply a form of retail water-boarding...of the employees.  One of the installations I did is in a CPA's office/lobby.  He will run the trains for clients and/or their kids, but when the closed-door discussion in his office begins with a client, the trains are turned off...period.  So, altering the operation to by-request-only can be a good thing for all...including intervals between maintenance. 

 

There's more, but that's enough for now.  I agree with Allan, though...the customer's own estimate is unrealistic. 

 

Good luck,

 

KD

 

I think Dale H is onto the cheapest way to go. Not sure if $5K will get it done though

Daniel

 

Just not sure yet what I am doing as I am not far enough along yet.

 

As for the cost of the layout,all we know so far is 2 loops of track in a 30 X 60. Perhaps I got it wrong but it is overhead so mostly track and not really a lot of area.  The shadow rail track really is not that expensive,RMT sells it.  There is scenery and then again there is Jim Policastro type scenery so it is hard to estimate a price,time and labor. On a shelf type layout there would not be that much room for a lot of it.

 

As for motive power there is Williams at maybe $150 per loco and also lightly used PS1 units or about that. Gut the electronics if they go bad and install a bridge rectifier and run the thing till it drops.

 

One train per loop with a pushbutton timer to run it for a few minutes,not at all that expensive,neither is Plasticville and it makes an interesting layout.

 

When I was 14, I used to walk to work,before and after school and again in the evening and then on weekends. On the way I crossed a railroad crossing with 7 tracks which was also a switch yard. There was a little caboose diner by the track. When you went in to eat a train ran around the perimeter as you dined. This layout was not at all elaborate or expensive but is what made me interested in trains and I used to talk to the RR workers. Of course then I could not afford trains then and the money I made went to help the family. I do not have big bucks now but do have a bit of time and resources. I can tell you that train layouts I think are still attractive to children of all ages,including me. I think something interesting could be built for a reasonable cost if expectations are not too high and the owner also contributed in the building. I would build a perimeter with room for expansion later if it caught on.

 

Dale H

 

 

"To Dream The Impossible Dream"....A simple layout (16' X 20') built right will cost every bit as much & more. And that's with simple scenery and buildings.

I appreciate all of  your responses.  Anyone else?

Perhaps you could bring the client down to earth by pricing out his original idea with costs itemized for track, trains, overhead shelving, scenic features, installation labor, plus weekly maintenance expenses. I know I wouldn't enjoy trying to install all that mileage of overhead shelving with track.

 

Then you could suggest a simpler option of what could be done for $5000 or less - possibly a self-contained train table with a couple independent circuits and scenery, operated on demand by push-button controls.

 

Lots of good input above. The noise of constant operation would get old real fast. And if someone isn't there to check and maintain it on a regular basis, it could quickly become a fiasco.

$5,000 is a joke.

 

Have you see the price of lumber these days?

 

Sheet lumber, dimensional lumber, screws and wire alone could easily run $1500 and you haven't bought the first piece of track.

 

Take Art's advice and B A I L.

One vital cost factor of course is your labor, and none of knows how you'll bill for it, whether a flat rate for the entire job or on an hourly basis. As for construction materials if your contractor friend purchases those raw construction materials at a contractor discounted price they'll be less expensive than what the average hobbist on this forum would pay. As for track since you'll be buying such a large quantity all at once you can probably wrangle a nice quantity discount or maybe even luck out with track sales such as RMT frequently runs for its track. Cost of scenery depends on what the buyers has in mind. For an around the ceiling 2 dimensional background printed on a printer that utilizes both continuous roll paper and a CIS continuous inking system, cost won't be nearly as much as some might think. As for motive power, snag a couple of conventional Williams units on blowlout pricing, add some basic cars and you'll likely spend considerably less than $1,000. So can this be done for less than $5,000? Albeit it'd be tight going depending on your labor, a no-frills setup of this size with materials totalling in the $3,500 to $4,000 range (including a decent transformer) could be accomplished on a $5,000 budget. BTH IMHO the majority of regular posters to this board are atypical and do not have no-frills layouts. So when those naysayers chime it can't be done, remember from where they're speaking.

 

Is the RMT track compatible with 0-27 track or the higher profile 0-31 track?

Please remember this little poem,"5K-No Way". Then read all the above for down to earth ideas.

Pay close attention to KD's advice above this sort of thing can happen. A four inch high plexy glass rail will provide the safety you wont and and still allow the trains to be seen. I even saw one shelf layout in G-Scale that ran on a Plexey Glass base so as provide a better view of the trains.

How ever you do it please remember that the open shelving is a very bad idea. It warps and allows lubrication to fling allover the customers and product below. Use solid shelves, I really like the clear plastic effect. But that brings us back to my little poem; "5K-No Way"!

 

As for you Dale H, you never fail to amaze me. Beautiful work buddy, keep us posted on how the layout progresses.

I have built many layouts , what you are going to do is 25k not a penny less. No scenery , just track and the platform installed , it is not to easy working on an overhead layout , hanging it , leveling it .Going up and down on a ladder is way different than working on the ground . In fact I would build some type of movable scaffold to move along as you work above and include that in the price.

 

I would show the guys these posts to your questions and let the customer buy the trains , so when they break he can buy replacements.

 

Non train enthusiasts , who have layouts custom built , seem to think warranty is forever.

 

Bernie

Steve, it matches standard 0-31, it is the same height.

As already said, show the shop owner this thread.

Dave, I plan to, but first, I am going to show it to my friend.  I'm not involved, financially, thankfully.

 

Perhaps I can talk them out of it.

 

My first thought when I heart of it was, "This is foolishness."  But, I decided to tag along for awhile, to see if they realized what they were up against, and then gently lower them down.

 

Thanks for the info on the RMT track.  If they decide to go ahead with this, I'll recommend Gargraves stainless.

That would be my recommendation, as well, since Large Scale (G gauge) trains have been used for that type of commercial display over many years with good success (supermarkets, hotels, restaurants, former Great Train Stores, botanical displays, etc.)  The trains are also much easier to see in an overhead application.

Ditto on G gauge as the best choice. Our local Wegmasn's likewise has a G gauge diesel running above. Much easier to see and tracks solidly so no concern about needing a plexiglass barrier along edges in event of derailment. Local store manager said they've never encountered a derailment since store opened.

Joe's Train Station in Feasterville, PA also has G gauge running on track suspended from the ceiling and kids love it when it's running.

IMHO, G is the way to go. 

Glen Junction Restaurant in Glen NH has had two G scale loops running on around the wall overhead layout since 1985. On a simple wood shelf. Right down the street from Storyland. They are on sone type of delay. One runs while the other rests. And my kids never grow tired of it, so it gives parents on vacation a little fast break at breakfast. (Bad joke I know. LOL) Maybe you could call and ask them about maintenance, details etc. and get your "buddy" the contractor to do all the bench work. After the "client" pays about $5500. for shelving, he will think your $3,500-$4,500. is a fantastic deal.. You should be able to get a real nice brass engine for that money. G scale can cost about half O scale, according to my G scale friends "advocates". And it will fill out the space better with some simple scenery around a centerpiece like a wooden 10 foot long Howe truss bridge, a covered bridge ( probably not prototypical, but easier than a tunnel) and two stations to have a reason to stop and rest the engines. I agree with others that based on my costs not including labor for my mostly used layout that $5,000 is not going to get anything but a large starter set in O gauge. And I am frugal (cheap) FMH

My comment about the noise issue.

 

Years ago, prior to his death, my best friend and train buddy John, had a layout that we put up at Christmas in the Columbus City Hall. It ran from the day after Thanksgiving until New Years's. It was a 4x8 with a plexiglass cover and 1 loop of track with a K-line diesel and 3 cars. It was activated by a motion sensor with a timer and the train ran for about 45 seconds. John worked at City Hall and could keep an eye on it.

 

Adjacent to the area where it was located, there were a couple of offices where a number of women worked. Every year they always complained about the noise the train made. At the time my brother-in-law was the mayor, so the train stayed. 

 

The sound of trains running is not music to everyone's ears.

My first thought when he approached me was, "This ain't gonna happen."

Neither my friend nor the client no anything about model railroads.

I decided to throw in, just to try to save my friend from his folly.

I'm gonna say for a budget, say $50,000  for the build, then 5,000 per year for maintenance.  I don't think that I will be too far off.

 

Hire someone to maintain it and $5,000 will go pretty quick.

 

A 30' by 60' is pretty grandiose. He could go with something much smaller, possibly to define an area. 

 

For a shelf or hanging layout definitely G gauge. It is bigger, less expensive, criteria of 2 rail track.

 

For a layout that is highly interactive with children I think a 10' by 5' along the the lines of a postwar dealer display would be well suited. It could be made more interactive with buttons to blow horn in front of crossing and drop crossing gates and raise them etc..

Well, they might have to.  Remember, I'm trying to talk these guys out of their folly.

It shouldn't cost anywhere near $50,000 to build, and it definitely won't require $5,000 a year to maintain.

          I fully understand you not wanting to take on a project of this magnitude but why not just tell your friend and the store owner exactly that along with a realistic appraisal of the costs involved? The owner might still be interested in doing this even the budget calls for more than what he originally thought and hoped for.

          In these times with train displays in stores diminishing every year I give the store owner credit for looking into adding one in his store even knowing his reason for wanting it is merely a way of possibly bringing more kids into his toy store.

          The way I see it, even if unknowingly, he nevertheless is exposing youngsters to toy trains who might otherwise never be exposed to them. To me that's a good thing for our hooby and something to be encouraged rather than be killed with scare tactics of unrealistic high price estimates. And who knows, if the display proves really effective, the store owner might even add toy trains to his sale inventory.

          You being a train enthusiast, if you personally aren't willing or have the time to devote to this undertaking, perhaps you could steer him to an area train club who's members might be able and want to do it for him. That way you're off the hook and just maybe a few future toy train enthusiasts might be added to our ranks by this "folly" as you see it.

Allan, it doesn't help me much just to tell me that I am wrong.  How am I wrong?  How much do you think that it will cost to build and maintain?  The client knows nothing about toy (model) trains, so if this project has a chance of lasting beyond the first few weeks, he will have to hire out the maintenance.  How much will that cost?