December 7, 1941
1) New York Central inauguration of the new light-weight streamlined Empire State Express, with two unequally streamlined Hudsons.
2) Pearl Harbor.
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If only the Hudson's survived the scrappers torch.
"A date that will live in infamy". Stirring words by a great man.
The fact that not a single Hudson survived the scrappers torch is a crime. After the war, railroads were still sitting pretty. They made tons of money. You would think that their own history would have meant something. There have always been railfans, but the New York central just didn't think enough of them to hold onto one piece of history. Even if the piece had sat in a museum setting, never to run again, what would it have cost them ?
Since the NYC was already having serious financial troubles by the early to mid 1950s, the scrap value in hard cash derived from any and EVERY steam locomotive was VERY important to their bottom line.
I suspect, then, that all the money they earned off the war effort dried up by then.
Don't think I would use the term "dried up" but many railroads were left with LOTS of worn out equipment, a large physical plant, and VERY high property taxes, well into the 1960s.
Hot Water posted:Don't think I would use the term "dried up" but many railroads were left with LOTS of worn out equipment, a large physical plant, and VERY high property taxes, well into the 1960s.
Hm, hadn't thought about that. Then the highways came along and finished the railroads off. I believe railroad taxes were used to fund the highways and airports. I could be mistaken however. I usually have this discussion with my uncle who was a truck driver. He claims the railroads were subsidized. I cannot be certain but i think it was passenger service only that received federal dollars.
Dan Padova posted:Hot Water posted:Don't think I would use the term "dried up" but many railroads were left with LOTS of worn out equipment, a large physical plant, and VERY high property taxes, well into the 1960s.
Hm, hadn't thought about that. Then the highways came along and finished the railroads off. I believe railroad taxes were used to fund the highways and airports. I could be mistaken however.
Correct.
I usually have this discussion with my uncle who was a truck driver. He claims the railroads were subsidized.
Absolutely, positively NOT!!!!
I cannot be certain but i think it was passenger service only that received federal dollars.
Nope. Only via U.S. Mail/postal contracts, and when the U.S. Postals service stopped using the railroads, in the early 1960s, then passenger service REALLY went into the toilet.
I took this shot at an airshow several years ago and later placed the text into it, as it's appropriate for today, I think:
Regarding:
"I usually have this discussion with my uncle who was a truck driver. He claims the railroads were subsidized.
Absolutely, positively NOT!!!!"
I might be mixing apples and oranges here, but the Illinois Central (with the assistance of Abraham Lincoln) was a recipient of the Railroad Land Grant, which in my understanding IS a form of subsidizing.
I would also be very surprised if no other railroad, especially in the west, did not take advantage of the Railroad Land Grant program.
Charlie
Land grants could be considered a form of subsidy. Lots of railroads received them. Consider the land grants were a political mechanism used to open new territory for settlement (and taxes). In Michigan, much of the northern lower peninsula and a lot of the upper peninsula offered land grants to the railroads. However, much of the land was returned as useless and only able to raise mosquitoes. It was not a great bargain. Durant with the Union Pacific meandered all over on his way west in order to lap up land grant land, however.
Anyway, to me a subsidy is a supplemental income to keep a business solvent. It's a continuous thing; the land grant was a one-time event. So, yes the railroads had a single "subsidy" while trucks, boats, planes have continual, and large, operational subsidies. Don't forget to roll in the taxes on railroad property. PRR built Penn Station, imagine American Airlines building La Guardia.
My humble apology for meandering so far off of the original topic but to get back, IMHO the Central had the snazziest looking locos and rolling stock; the P-Company had the brawniest no-nonsense roster (sans the Qs and Ts). The war took its toll on all of the roads. The postwar era changed things forever.
Hot Water, thanks for the information! The Empire State Express is gone (and so many other named trains) but will continue to live in the minds of the railfans.
My father, now 101 years old, is a Pearl Harbor Survivor, serving on the Lt Cruiser Honolulu. As luck would have it, they were in the shipyard and took a couple of near hits, rupturing a couple of tanks. See: 2013 story http://www.presstelegram.com/g...bers-japanese-attack
CHARLIE and GTW,
You are correct about land grants being subsidies, back in the mid to late 1800s. The general discussion I was having with Mr. PADOVA was related to the post WWII era, and well into the 1960s/1970s.
Additional factors really handicapping the big Eastern railroads (NYC and PRR) were shorter hauls (less lucrative then the western carriers long, almost trans-continental hauls) and much greater expenses related to terminal switching. Toss in very high labor costs, resulting from excessive manning, caused by intransagient unions/brotherhoods and even mandated crewing costs (NY state mandated 6 man crews on freights; as soon as PRR freights reached the PA border, they dropped off a man). And, heck, I will bet the eastern states taxed the property of "those rich railroads" more heavily (as noted, above), then western roads.
By the time the Robert R. Young proxy war for control of the New York Central was over in 1955, the Central was in pretty beat-up condition. Anything and everything that could be monitized, was. So, hasta luego steam locomotives and anything else un-needed and with scrap value. In fact, the Central, in the last years of steam operation, left off cylinder head and steam dome covers, in a rather pointless display of frugality.
Lest we forget...
George
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As the Japanese general put it.... " I fear we have woken a sleeping giant.."
Yes, may we, as a nation of God fearing people, never forget this Day of Infamy. Many of the "Greatest Generation" fought for our Freedoms, some gave the upmost. My father, in both Europe and Pacific, never would speak much of his experiences in the Corp of Engineers. My father-in-law served in Europe as a tanker, have one pic of him peering out of lower hatch in skull cap and goggles on head, several pics of my father when in Pacific. My father lost two cousins on the Arizona, documented. Just one reason for his signing up at age 16, stretched the fact of his age.
God bless them all......
Jesse
My grandfather was on one of those ships of men waiting to invade Japan in August 1945. Luckily for my family 6 more aunts and uncles were born that otherwise... He went on to be part of the occupation forces under Mac. Another lucky happenstance of history for me, since my father was born in 1902 he was too young for WW1 and too old for WW2 otherwise I wouldn't be here either.
My grandfather didn't serve in WWII, but he did serve in the army in Germany for reasons I don't know. He drove a Jeep out there. He told me about seeing Dover's white cliffs from the battleship, and about East and West Germany. He also told me some railroad stories:
First of all, he said that the trains ran like clockwork. If a train was leaving at 6:00, you'd miss it if you got there at 6:01. He also said that the crossing gates were timed too, sort of. He said that the gates had a crank to lower them, but they were unattended. He said that a young boy would ride up on a bicycle, crank the gate down, and seconds later, the train passed. Then the boy would raise the gate, hop on his bike and ride back home. And that same operation went on at every gate.
I found those stories very interesting. My grandpa is alive and well.
My grandfather is still alive and well today, although a bit slow on his feet. He served in Patton's Army, but was back in the rear as support. Never fired a shot. But he did meet my grandmother in Paris in 1945...who is also alive and well and slower than she used to be. They celebrated their 70th wedding anniversary this past May. I have to dig it up, but I've got a great picture of my grandfather standing on the front of a locomotive in Hamburg in 1945 or 1946.
Tom Brokaw nailed it on the head when he referred to this group of people as America's Greatest Generation. Based on two encounters with some "Millenials" over the past few weeks, I think that title will be theirs to keep for the foreseeable future.
Watched a number of excellent documentaries on Peal Harbor last night. Amazing stuff. Much sincere thanks to all who have served....in WWII and since then.
George,
Do you know the name of the ship shown sailing out of the harbor in picture number 8? Looks undamaged to me.
Dave
ncdave posted:George,
Do you know the name of the ship shown sailing out of the harbor in picture number 8? Looks undamaged to me.
Dave
Didn't the Nevada make it out from Battle Ship Row and out to see, thanks to some incredible engineering work....and blood, sweat, and tears?
The Nevada sustained at least one major torpedo hit, FWIW.
Berkshire President posted:ncdave posted:George,
Do you know the name of the ship shown sailing out of the harbor in picture number 8? Looks undamaged to me.
Dave
Didn't the Nevada make it out from Battle Ship Row and out to see, thanks to some incredible engineering work....and blood, sweat, and tears?
The Nevada sustained at least one major torpedo hit, FWIW.
I believe that the ship pictured is a cruiser. The Nevada was heavily damaged and tried to escape. But had to be beached before she sank blocking the channel.
Berkshire President posted:ncdave posted:George,
Do you know the name of the ship shown sailing out of the harbor in picture number 8? Looks undamaged to me.
Dave
Didn't the Nevada make it out from Battle Ship Row and out to see, thanks to some incredible engineering work....and blood, sweat, and tears?
The Nevada sustained at least one major torpedo hit, FWIW.
Actually, the U.S.S Nevada did make it out of Battle Ship Row. By a lucky happenstance, She had all her boilers on line at the time of the attack. The OOD, an Ensign, ordered the lines cut and Flank Bells, and was about to enter the mouth of the harbor, when the Japanese saw her. She was swarmed, and about to sink, when the OOD ordered her grounded at Hospital Point. She was the only Capital ship to sortie that day.
That is definitely a cruiser, a light cruiser I would say. Can you read the number? If so, you can identify it. I can't see the number.
She's a Brooklyn-class, so it could be Honolulu.
It's amazing how many Americans think that Pearl Harbor started WW2 for everyone.
China had been at war against the Japanese since 1937 and Europe had been at war since 1939 by the time the Japanese launched a massive series of attacks on not only Hawaii, but also Wake Island, the Philippines, Malaya, Guam and Midway Island (and some other places). An Australian light-bomber group attacked a convoy of Japanese ships just hours before the Pearl Harbor attack, with heavy losses.
FDR’s famous speech to congress the next day led to a declaration of war against Japan, and then later against Germany and Italy. but the vote to declare war was not unanimous.
Most of the ships damaged in the Pearl Harbor attack were later repaired and went into action in the war but two battleships still remain where they were docked 75 years ago, today. The location of the remains of the USS Arizona is well-known today due to the memorial placed over top of the hull. But around the side of Ford Island, the WW1-era battleship USS Utah (which was used as a remote-control target ship by 1941) still rests in place close to where she was sunk. They'd tried to right her as they later did for the Oklahoma, but it only drug the Utah closer to Ford Island, so they gave up, torched off everything above the water line, and left her there.
p51 posted:It's amazing how many Americans think that Pearl Harbor started WW2 for everyone.
China had been at war against the Japanese since 1937 and Europe had been at war since 1939 by the time the Japanese launched a massive series of attacks on not only Hawaii, but also Wake Island, the Philippines, Malaya, Guam and Midway Island (and some other places). An Australian light-bomber group attacked a convoy of Japanese ships just hours before the Pearl Harbor attack, with heavy losses.
FDR’s famous speech to congress the next day led to a declaration of war against Japan, and then later against Germany and Italy. but the vote to declare war was not unanimous.
True, but only one person voted against the measure!
p51 posted:It's amazing how many Americans think that Pearl Harbor started WW2 for everyone.
China had been at war against the Japanese since 1937 and Europe had been at war since 1939 by the time the Japanese launched a massive series of attacks on not only Hawaii, but also Wake Island, the Philippines, Malaya, Guam and Midway Island (and some other places). An Australian light-bomber group attacked a convoy of Japanese ships just hours before the Pearl Harbor attack, with heavy losses.
FDR’s famous speech to congress the next day led to a declaration of war against Japan, and then later against Germany and Italy. but the vote to declare war was not unanimous.
Most of the ships damaged in the Pearl Harbor attack were later repaired and went into action in the war but two battleships still remain where they were docked 75 years ago, today. The location of the remains of the USS Arizona is well-known today due to the memorial placed over top of the hull. But around the side of Ford Island, the WW1-era battleship USS Utah (which was used as a remote-control target ship by 1941) still rests in place close to where she was sunk. They'd tried to right her as they later did for the Oklahoma, but it only drug the Utah closer to Ford Island, so they gave up, torched off everything above the water line, and left her there.
All true! Nor do many know that the U.S. actually fired the first shot on December 7, 1941....although it took decades to prove as such.
Two shots were fired on a Japanese mini-sub by a ship on patrol prior to the main attack at 7:55 a.m. The Captain and crew always claimed that the second shot struck the sub and sank her. Several decades later, the mini sub was found about five miles off shore.....with a hole in the hull exactly where the Captain claimed.
I think many people are unaware that we actually downed 29 or 30 Japanese planes that day. While it was clearly a lopsided battle, we didn't go down without a fight.
Whenever I see someone driving a Mitsubishi automobile, I kind of snicker to myself and wonder if they realize that the company that built their car also built the Zero Fighter in WWII.
First of all, please don't take offense at this posting, but it was, to me at least, a fascinating fact that lept off the page to really surprise me.
I was reading an article in a numerology magazine, the folks that take numbers very seriously, about the meaning of certain numbers in different societies. Things like how number 7 is considered lucky to us, but 13 is unlucky and that these numbers vary between cultures. For example, the number 8 is very meaningful and lucky to the Japanese... there were 8 petals on the Emperor's symbol (although it looks like 16 to me) and there were other examples of their use of 8 as a lucky number including this statement, "and it was among the reasons the Japanese picked Dec. 8 to attack Pearl Harbor!"
Whoa, what? December 8?! Then it dawned on me, they're on the other side of the international date line so it was the 8th. While Dec. 7th is the day of infamy in our memory, in Japan, that was yesterday. Made me stop and think.
FJ
That is also true of many German firms.
Berkshire President posted:Whenever I see someone driving a Mitsubishi automobile, I kind of snicker to myself and wonder if they realize that the company that built their car also built the Zero Fighter in WWII.
Yes, VERY interesting. One summer day, I was driving back to the office from lunch, and ahead of me was a small Japanese car with a special state of Illinois "Pearl Harbor Survivor" license plate. I couldn't believe my eyes! I pulled up beside the car, and said loudly enough for the lady driving the car to hear, "you sure have some nerve driving THAT car carrying THAT license plate!!!!". She rolled up her car window, and turned right at the next street.
palallin posted:She's a Brooklyn-class, so it could be Honolulu.
Good job! I think you're right. I have some of my father's Navy Pre-flight training materials (ship and plane identification) but it's not handy.
Good catch p51! Few people remember that the target ship Utah (BB-31) also capsized.
George
palallin posted:She's a Brooklyn-class, so it could be Honolulu.
Do not believe the Honolulu (dad's ship) got underway while attack was going on, boilers were cold and shore connections were cut as attack was going on. Unfortunately, dad's memory has faded this past year, however, my brother wrote a memoir of dad's WW2 experiences, I will check with him tomorrow. Dad turned 101 in July.
The other items that were undamaged were the oil storage tanks and the submarine pens.
BTW, Arizona's sister ship, Pennsylvania, was in the dry-dock at the time of the attack. I believe she was either lightly damaged or escaped any damage.
George
Berkshire President posted:p51 posted:It's amazing how many Americans think that Pearl Harbor started WW2 for everyone.
China had been at war against the Japanese since 1937 and Europe had been at war since 1939 by the time the Japanese launched a massive series of attacks on not only Hawaii, but also Wake Island, the Philippines, Malaya, Guam and Midway Island (and some other places). An Australian light-bomber group attacked a convoy of Japanese ships just hours before the Pearl Harbor attack, with heavy losses.
FDR’s famous speech to congress the next day led to a declaration of war against Japan, and then later against Germany and Italy. but the vote to declare war was not unanimous.
Most of the ships damaged in the Pearl Harbor attack were later repaired and went into action in the war but two battleships still remain where they were docked 75 years ago, today. The location of the remains of the USS Arizona is well-known today due to the memorial placed over top of the hull. But around the side of Ford Island, the WW1-era battleship USS Utah (which was used as a remote-control target ship by 1941) still rests in place close to where she was sunk. They'd tried to right her as they later did for the Oklahoma, but it only drug the Utah closer to Ford Island, so they gave up, torched off everything above the water line, and left her there.
All true! Nor do many know that the U.S. actually fired the first shot on December 7, 1941....although it took decades to prove as such.
Two shots were fired on a Japanese mini-sub by a ship on patrol prior to the main attack at 7:55 a.m. The Captain and crew always claimed that the second shot struck the sub and sank her. Several decades later, the mini sub was found about five miles off shore.....with a hole in the hull exactly where the Captain claimed.
I think many people are unaware that we actually downed 29 or 30 Japanese planes that day. While it was clearly a lopsided battle, we didn't go down without a fight.
Whenever I see someone driving a Mitsubishi automobile, I kind of snicker to myself and wonder if they realize that the company that built their car also built the Zero Fighter in WWII.
The ship you mention is the USS Ward. DD-139, Wickes Class. Also, another little known fact,( I only read it once so I may be mistaken ), is that the carriers were sending their Air Wings ashore and flew right into the middle of the attack, like the B-17's. Unarmed and low on fuel.
Absolutely great thread........
And, in our own way, we did NOT forget December 7th.
The ship that appears to be underway is indeed a cruiser. It is a class similar to the Boise. They were light cruisers.
Upon review,the ship in question is a member of the Brooklyn Class of light cruisers. There were 7 built in the late 1930's. A distinguishing feature of this class of cruisers is that they had 5 turrets,each having 3x6in. guns. These turrets can be seen in the photo.
The USS Phoenix,a Brooklyn Class cruiser,was transferred to Argentina(Belgrano),and was sunk during the Falklands War.
Norm
Ship under way is not the Honolulu, cruiser in photo had 4 gun turrets (8"?) while Honolulu had 3 turrets and a seaplane catapult and crane on the stern. My dad got the boilers fired and made steam during the second wave, but with no orders, the Honolulu did not leave port on the 7th.
G3750 posted:Lest we forget...
George
The ship in question is the USS Phoenix, CL-46
