Info needed for front to rear wheel spacing between a super motor and build a moter

Ron, hard to make out what you mean here... "drivers" usually is used to mean the drive wheels.  However, that doesn't seem to be the way you are using the word?  No right or wrong here, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. Do you mean gears?  You say you have a super motor, and you want to know the distance between the axles.  Why not just measure the one you have?

Also, be aware that there are two versions of the super motor, one has a longer wheelbase (axle to axle) than the other.  Interestingly, the frame for the #8 locomotive was made to fit the earlier, short wheelbase version of the super motor.  When the newer version of the super motor came out, with a longer wheelbase, the #8 frame was not re-tooled.  The result is that the journals on the side of the frame line up with the centers of the axles of the old, short wheelbase motor, but the journals in the frame do not line up with the axles of the newer super motor.  Lionel never fixed this, so all the later #8 locos look a little funny, the trim on the side of the frame does not line up with the drive wheels.

david

hojack posted:

Ron, hard to make out what you mean here... "drivers" usually is used to mean the drive wheels.  However, that doesn't seem to be the way you are using the word?  No right or wrong here, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. Do you mean gears?  You say you have a super motor, and you want to know the distance between the axles.  Why not just measure the one you have?

Also, be aware that there are two versions of the super motor, one has a longer wheelbase (axle to axle) than the other.  Interestingly, the frame for the #8 locomotive was made to fit the earlier, long wheelbase version of the super motor.  When the newer version of the super motor came out, with a shorter wheelbase, the #8 frame was not re-tooled.  The result is that the journals on the side of the frame line up with the centers of the axles of the old, longer wheelbase motor, but the journals in the frame do not line up with the axles of the newer super motor.  Lionel never fixed this, so all the later #8 locos look a little funny, the trim on the side of the frame does not line up with the drive wheels.

david

What i have are the wheels from a steam loco and would like to add the outside driver rod that connect the front wheel to the rear. I have the later super motor but donot have a build a motor for comparion

 The super motr was never used in a steam loco, but the build a motor was. If you have a lolo with a build a motor could you measure. The distance between the center of the frnt axle to the rear.

Okay, when you say "drivers", I think you're talking about what are called the side rods.  This is beginning to come together.  You have a set of steam drivers (wheels) with the lugs for side rods, and you believe these wheels were made for a build-a-loco motor.  You want to use these wheels on the super motor in your #8 loco, and you want to know if you can get side rods to fit once the wheels are mounted on the super motor axles.  Do I have it right?

If you are sure that you have a late, long wheelbase super motor, then it has the same wheelbase (axle to axle) as the build-a-loco motor: they are both about 3-1/4", if I remember correctly. The earlier super motor was about 3" wheelbase.  So side rods made for steam build-a-loco motors like the 384, 390, etc.  should fit. You will want to check the thread size of the tapped hole in the drivers (wheels) to match which set of side rods you use.

I think your larger concern is going to be getting those build-a-loco wheels to work with the drive gears on the super motor. I'm not sure they are interchangeable, but this is where my experience gets a little thin. Anyone?

Another concern would be whether there is enough clearance inside the frame of the #8 for side rods mounted on the outside of the drivers (drive wheels). It wasn't made for them, and there might not be room.

By the way, although there were no steam locos that used the super motor, there was a Lionel locomotive with the super motor that did use the steam-type wheels and side rods. This was the #42 dual-motor electric loco.  However, I think these were the older short-wheelbase motor, so the side rods would have been shorter, but again my knowledge gives out here: did the last of the 42's have the later super motor? 

The Ives 1764 standard gauge New Haven box cab also used side rods... so don't worry about them being the "wrong" wheels, there is more than one precedent for electric locos using side rods, as long as you can get the rest of it to work.

Thank you for the answer hojack.
The wheels with the counterweight and threaded part for the side rods were already mounted on the super motor and running.
I looked at another one of my #8 that is complete and as you stated there may be a clearance problem between the frame and the lugs/side rods. I will try to find the side rails and lugs for the motor I have and if they fit, I will use them, if not I will leave as is.
I have another #8 electric and that super motor has about a 3.00"span between the axles and the other one I m working on has a 3.25" which is good.
The 3.25" one has the metal plate that goes over the gears to hold then in place and acts as a bushing for the armature and looks like the super motor described in Olsens library. The 3" does not have this metal plate to hold the gears but does have a nut to hold this gear in place. This gear drive both gears on the wheels and also is driven by the armature but has the super motor name plate on the bottom. This motor is not listed in the Olsen's library. This one maybe the earlier version as the gears on the wheels are almost as large as the flanges on the wheels and the shell has strap lights instead of cast.  plus the wheels do fit nicely to the frame journals though. Just trying to learn as I go.

The early "large gear" super motor  has  a shorter wheelbase (2-7/8"), and a single duplex idler gear.  Later super motors have a longer wheelbase (3-3/16") and 2 smaller duplex idler gears.  Bild-a-loco motors have the longer wheelbase (3-3/16") and 2 smaller duplex idler gears, though the gears are arranged slightly differently.  There is no clearance for side rod screw heads. on the 8.  I know... I tried!

Ron, if those wheels came on your super motor, it is likely that it came from a 42.  You should be able to find the side rods for it.  But I think getting the side rods to fit under the #8 frame may be the issue.

Rob, thank you for coming to my assistance, I had the locos right in front of me but my dyslexia was kicking in and I was reversing them: I have corrected my earlier post in the interest of consistency.

David, you are welcome of course!  In looking closer, the #8 has a modified frame for the later small gear super motor, unfortunate;y the side rods still won't work as the  frame was not widened at all.  Looks like Flyer Wide Gauge has frame width that could accommodate side rods....

Thank you Rob and Hojack. The wheels that are on this newer super motor are Bowser so it has been re-wheeled and the fellow who did this rebuild only had the wheels with the counter weight and threaded hole for the drive rod. As you both stated there is no room for the drive rods and the bolt to hold these on would add to the problem. Also the frame skirt does hang over the wheels so they really are not that visible.  I also was thinking of turning down the bolt head to make it thinner for more room, but there is not that muck clearance.
What I will do is to use the Steam loco wheels that I have (do not want to pay a additional $40.00 for the correct wheels at this time).

Thank you both for the info and I learned a bit about the super motor old and new. This information is not in any books but from folks like your self. I will add this info to my Standard folder.

You are welcome.  I think that some of this kind of information is in the new Greenberg Standard Gauge book.

Rob English posted:

You are welcome.  I think that some of this kind of information is in the new Greenberg Standard Gauge book.

I have the older standard gauge book and not to much is given like the prewar O gauge book. The O gauge book breaks down all the engines by year and each engine describes what year that engine was used. But the best information I get is from this forum, imagine if a book was out on prewar standard gauge Lionel with all the information that all the forum members have in their heads, wow!

I do not know how I caught this standard gauge bug but I can not shake it. Started out about a year ago and I accumulated a lot of stuff.
Trying to do things on a low budget and it seems to be working. I just keep on sticking with the 100 series cars, 35/36 passenger cars and the only engine that I m looking at are the #8 as these items are usually nicely priced.

Bruce Greenberg put a lot of detailed information in his book.  You should check it out.

SG is fun.  You might take a look at 33,38, and 50 locos.  They are still reasonable and those made after 1924 have super motors.

Rob English posted:

 In looking closer, the #8 has a modified frame for the later small gear super motor, unfortunate;y the side rods still won't work as the  frame was not widened at all. 

I always thought it was strange, since Lionel did modify the 8 frame for the later motor - they had to, the motor mounts are different - why they didn't change the journal spacing at the same time.  Funny little quirk.

Greenberg's new Lionel SG book does have a spiel on the #8 frame, wish I had that back when I first was doodling with 8's:   I thought I was going nuts, I had an 8 frame and an 8 cab and an 8 motor, and they did NOT go together!

Ron, I think you are going about this exactly the right way.   Finding the parts and putting them together is as much fun as running them!