Excellent analysis and thank you for all the photos!

Sounds like I may need to “void the warranty” on my engines when they arrive. Another forum poster reported getting a motor short fault code on their engine after powering it for the first time. Based on your analysis, it seems like pinched motor leads could be a common problem on these.

Wow! More quality build stuff! That blue wire laying right on the flywheel takes the cake....pathetic.

I don't know how anyone has the guts to preorder Lionel anymore.

@RickO posted:

I don't know how anyone has the guts to preorder Lionel anymore.

Well, so do I - but I have a Daylight pre-order coming sometime. Not impressed with the assembly but they may have rushed some of this production run out trying to make pre-Christmas delivery. I know that’s not an excuse.

Hats off to Dave for an impressive piece of engineering. Now all you guys have to do is get someone over to the factory to do some real quality control.

Good for you to do this Bruk. Maybe you know this already but if not could you verify with Dave if the new motor control board now has short circuit protection if the motor fails or in this case one of the leads shorts? Since they continue to use these Canon motors with their high failure rate it would be good to know if that will take out a board like it did with the RCMCs.

Pete

Gads, look at all those messy wires all over the place.  Why, a plate of spaghetti is more appetising!  Not for me guys.  I'll take a dish of "clean as can be" O scale live steam locomotives* anyday...LOL

No, the above statement isn't out of the Sunday funny papers.  Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Enjoy your model railroad adventure.  Remember, you're a member of The World's Greatest Hobby.  It doesn't get any better than this!

Joe

* Bassett-Lowke spirit fired is understood.

@Norton posted:

Hats off to Dave for an impressive piece of engineering. Now all you guys have to do is get someone over to the factory to do some real quality control.

Good for you to do this Bruk. Maybe you know this already but if not could you verify with Dave if the new motor control board now has short circuit protection if the motor fails or in this case one of the leads shorts? Since they continue to use these Canon motors with their high failure rate it would be good to know if that will take out a board like it did with the RCMCs.

Pete

I'd like to know that too. It should not be the case that you have to wonder whether to open up an engine before you even put power to it to see whether a wire has been pinched and a short is likely. As on recent form Lionel won't have a lot of replacement parts on hand, I'd be worried that if a control board was shorted there'd be no fix available any time soon, if at all.

Yikes, that is scary. Well, I didn't order one, but still is scary considering this could be any or all engines having any or all of the issues shown. Not good at all.

Isn’t that a $2k locomotive?  Sheesh.

That's a real shame. 

The engineers that developed these packages should be taking notes from master builder Bruk, clearly he’s had to re-design a few things, and obviously repair a bunch of things, ......not only should Lionel NOT void his warranty for opening it up and saving the day, they should give him the labor hours as credit on his next parts purchase ....or something!...good grief!....great work Bruk, .....disaster averted,.....well done!..

Pat

Question,    was there a failure causing you to open it up?   Or curiosity?

@Alabama Joe posted:

Question,    was there a failure causing you to open it up?   Or curiosity?

Bruk can no doubt answer for himself, but I think that the explanation is in his earlier thread found here:

https://ogrforum.com/...-4470-2031411-issues

Incidentally, I think that most or at least many of us benefit from these "look inside" postings, which were pioneered by @Alex M. Also from the input that comes direct from Dave O. at Lionel and Jon Z. (formerly of Lionel).

@Alabama Joe posted:

Question,    was there a failure causing you to open it up?   Or curiosity?

Curiosity,

Everything I get, I take apart. Its just how I am. I like to know what I’m working with so I can troubleshoot/fix it later. I also like to see how the “factory” lays things out.  

This goes for most things.

@Bruk posted:

Curiosity,

Everything I get, I take apart. Its just how I am. I like to know what I’m working with so I can troubleshoot/fix it later. I also like to see how the “factory” lays things out.  

This goes for most things.

Thanks for the reply.    

Wow what a breakdown! It's amazing what they cram in these expensive locomotives now. Guys they just need to get better on the execution end of things.

The pinched wires and the bad crimp are pretty clearly a rush thing. The board mounting too close to the drive might be a design issue.

I agree with Pat, Lionel should send Bruk a fancy thank you note and a check for his time. Just forward this series of photos to the factory supervisor in China. Before work tomorrow, the assembly team should spend one hour reviewing these photos and he implored to double check each of these points before closing up the loco shell.

@Bruk posted:

Curiosity,

Everything I get, I take apart. Its just how I am. I like to know what I’m working with so I can troubleshoot/fix it later. I also like to see how the “factory” lays things out.  

This goes for most things.

Perhaps this one Bruk, you might call it a preemptive strike,.....surely you were able fix things on your terms, and not when it would have been too late!....good save!....that could have been disastrous,....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Perhaps this one Bruk, you might call it a preemptive strike,.....surely you were able fix things on your terms, and not when it would have been too late!....good save!....that could have been disastrous,....

Pat

I’m glad I did,

That blue motor wire insulation was cut down enough to expose the wire inside.  I guarantee at some point it would have ground to the frame or motor bracket.

I'm a big taken back by the continuing QC issues for what could have been an outstanding release!  The pinched wires I see way too often opening up newer Legacy stuff.

FWIW, I'm planning on taking any locomotive with that crappy Canon motor apart and adding a PTC in series with the motor.  One with a 2-3A trip rating would probably be a pretty good choice.  They'll pass 3-4 amps for quite a while, more than enough for any normal operation, but they'll trip very fast on a really high 7-8 amps, which just may save the board when the Canon motor croaks!

Belfuse 0ZRP0135FF1A from Digikey would be a good first choice for the PTC.

@RickO posted:

Wow! More quality build stuff! That blue wire laying right on the flywheel takes the cake....pathetic.

I don't know how anyone has the guts to preorder Lionel anymore.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, that no one was able to go over and “double check” the progress with production in general because of the pandemic and travel restrictions.....

@Bruk posted:

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, that no one was able to go over and “double check” the progress with production in general because of the pandemic and travel restrictions.....

Well. This sort of thing was occurring "pre pandemic". I own one of the h10s from a couple years back. Stripped screws and pinched wires were found on these as well.

While not as serious as yours. I also had a wire rubbing on the encoder wheel.

Then there's the overpowered audio board causing the sounds to cut out, silly colors....yadda...yadda.

I don't think these issues will stop until the cost of warranty repair is no longer covered by the inflated purchase price. Or folks start returning defective items instead of living with them.

Not directing anything towards you Bruk. At what point do folks stop making excuses for Lionel?

IMO. Too much focus is on Lion chief whizz bang whatever.

Is there anything else in life that you spend $600.... $1000.... $2000 and expect to fix it out of the box?

I ordered this engine and am awating its  Arrival,with all of These potential Problems and a possible failure would Lionel do a complete dissasembly and make the appropriate corrections upon return for whatever failed.I Hope that Lionel replies to this post,$2000 is a lot of money for this type of workmanship.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm a big taken back by the continuing QC issues for what could have been an outstanding release!  The pinched wires I see way too often opening up newer Legacy stuff.

FWIW, I'm planning on taking any locomotive with that crappy Canon motor apart and adding a PTC in series with the motor.  One with a 2-3A trip rating would probably be a pretty good choice.  They'll pass 3-4 amps for quite a while, more than enough for any normal operation, but they'll trip very fast on a really high 7-8 amps, which just may save the board when the Canon motor croaks!

Belfuse 0ZRP0135FF1A from Digikey would be a good first choice for the PTC.

Thanks for the suggestion Jon. I think I’ll order a bunch of these and install them when I do my QC inspection. The digikey site says these are self-resetting fuses. So do they reset like a circuit breaker when the short is no longer present?

Correct, a PTC will interrupt the current when it sees an overload and restore the connection with the current goes away and it cools down.  I used them for all my ERR Cruise Commander Lite installs as that board was particularly sensitive to a motor stall, it would cook on the spot.  Never lost one with the PTC installed.

wow bruk nice work. love to see these types of threads. when I see eric segal review engines like this it makes me want one. then I see photos like yours and say to much inside to go wrong.

with steamers I feel the smoke features have to be used. desiels not so much. so when using these smoke features all the time. they need periodic maintenance to them. only trouble is they are not always easy to get to as your photos point out.

seem our trains are becomming like cars. designed for the assembly worker,but if I need access to the main air conditioner part the whole dash must come out to get to it. plus dont buy one made on a monday or a friday as the old saying goes.

I will say lionels spaghetti I mean electronics inside there engines have gotten a lot neater since the early tmcc days. just wish the assemblers took more pride in there work. maybe then most of these issuses would not happen.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Correct, a PTC will interrupt the current when it sees an overload and restore the connection with the current goes away and it cools down.  I used them for all my ERR Cruise Commander Lite installs as that board was particularly sensitive to a motor stall, it would cook on the spot.  Never lost one with the PTC installed.

Jon,

Would you recommend these be placed on most, if not all, DC motors?  I guess a better question would be - Is there any downside of doing so?

Thx.

@Bruk From your photos I think I can see just 4 (or maybe 6) screws that hold the boiler shell on, and another 6 for the tender. Is that correct? Not that I feel keen on inspecting mine when (if ever) it arrives, but it's better to be prepared.

Some recent Legacy/VL steamers have been easier to disassemble than earlier ones or their TMCC predecessors. Obviously getting any of them back together without damage is always a challenge.

@Bruk posted:

I’m glad I did,

That blue motor wire insulation was cut down enough to expose the wire inside.  I guarantee at some point it would have ground to the frame or motor bracket.

Burk,

Couple of repair technique questions-

1. How will you go about the repair of the stripped screws?
   Will you tap with a larger screw?
2. Will you use CA glue on the boiler face or some other repair?

By the way, thanks for the all the photos!

@DaveGG posted:

Jon,

Would you recommend these be placed on most, if not all, DC motors?  I guess a better question would be - Is there any downside of doing so?

Thx.

No big downside that I can see, I've never seen them affect the performance.  The one time I had one tripping was an older Williams steamer, when I tested the motor, it was drawing two-three times the current it should, so the PTC was just doing it's job!

FWIW, I think the screws were probably a product of an overactive power screwdriver like my experience with the Legacy H10 tender.  In my case, they simply destroyed the screw head, I had to drill it with a reverse drill and use a screw extractor to get it out!

They're all about quick assembling these, and there's no quality control that I can see.

@RickO posted:

IMO. Too much focus is on Lion chief whizz bang whatever.

Is there anything else in life that you spend $600.... $1000.... $2000 and expect to fix it out of the box?

I agree. It seems like Lionel is spread a bit thin. They have a lot of great ideas/products. They just don't seem to execute them all equally well. Apparently it's possible to build these highly scaled models as other manufacturers are doing it so I don't know if anybody can say "well they're so delicate, it happens". Either way, this post will have me opening any new locomotives I get for inspection.

Smart phones and computers are the other other items that I can think of that I fix out of the box by getting rid of the bad software/firmware and adding my own. It sucks but it's just the way of the world from my perspective.

@gunrunnerjohn
Hi John, sorry for the dumb questions, but here goes.  You mentioned installing a PTC in line with the motor.  So you that means interrupt the inbound power wire with the PTC and and from the PTC to the motor?  Is that right?  If so are the fuses directional?  Never done this but it makes sense.  Is this particularly necessary for the Canon motor?  If so, why this motor?  Lots of questions but you are the man with all the answers!  Thanks@

Too bad the magazines don't look inside when they review new products!  

@T4TT posted:

@gunrunnerjohn
Hi John, sorry for the dumb questions, but here goes.  You mentioned installing a PTC in line with the motor.  So you that means interrupt the inbound power wire with the PTC and and from the PTC to the motor?  Is that right?  If so are the fuses directional?  Never done this but it makes sense.  Is this particularly necessary for the Canon motor?  If so, why this motor?  Lots of questions but you are the man with all the answers!  Thanks@

Correct, the PTC goes in series with one of the motor leads.  The PTC is not directional, it has no polarity.  The reason for protecting the board with the Canon motor is they have a propensity to short out and the RCMC doesn't react fast enough to the overload to protect itself.  I have two RCMC boards with the motor driver FET's burned up and the board under them destroyed.  The 3rd one I encountered I managed to save the board by replacing the FET's that were cooked.  Nowadays I figure I should have some protection from the crappy Canon motor.

@Professor Chaos posted:

Too bad the magazines don't look inside when they review new products!  

I think that is a used to be. I believe either back in the mid to late 90's they had popped open a few of the first TMCC engines to look at and explain a few things. One I believe was a steam engine, the other I think was a diesel, maybe a PA or F3. I think there were some others, maybe some other diesels, but hey, we're talking quite some time ago. I'd have to pop out some of the old magazines and pop a look.

Looks like a lot of small, careless,  mistakes in assembly. I open all the new stuff I've bought and check the wiring. Yeah I void the warranty but, if there are any problems, I fix them and eliminate the problem that would have required the warranty repair in the first place. Most of these boards are pretty robust as long as they aren't shorted to chassis ground...

@Lou1985 posted:

Looks like a lot of small, careless,  mistakes in assembly. I open all the new stuff I've bought and check the wiring. Yeah I void the warranty but, if there are any problems, I fix them and eliminate the problem that would have required the warranty repair in the first place. Most of these boards are pretty robust as long as they aren't shorted to chassis ground...

I agree, I have had very few issues with these LEGACY boards. Unless something touches chassis ground. It never ends well.

I'd estimate 99% of the problems with Legacy or PS3 boards failing can be traced to careless assembly causing wire shorts to ground. The other killer is people running the new stuff with postwar transformers with no added circuit protection. The boards rarely just fail on their own. It's usually assembly/ user error. Except in the case of PS2 5V stuff 😉.

Slapped together by angry elves.

- Crank

Ok, what’s PTC, it must be a protection piece of some kind, but what? Also, why the Canon motor when there are better ones available? This is great information, thsnk you very much all for chiming in, and Bruk for beginning the thread. Happy Railroading Everyone