Interesting conversation with Lionel's service department

Maybe Lionel's approach with these new LC items is to treat them like almost every other item purchased through retail  - rather than repair, it's either replaced or returned for a refund. I don't have any problem with that as long as the retailer is on board with that approach.

1 - never send anything back until you have taken the shell off. It is sometimes just that simple - a stray , loose wire. Had it happen to me. Usually it is not, sadly. But if it is...think of the trouble and money you'll save. Plus, the Lionel RS-3 is basic - though it has had many incarnations - and opening it up should not be too bad, for a diesel. Good experience, too.

2 - "...do not have parts to fix it". This is frightening, and ludicrous. I was considering a LC Camelback - scale, command, not too pricey at the right place. Nope. Not going to happen. That's just crazy talk. 

CAPPilot posted:

I really like the engine and was thinking of taking the shell off to see if there are any obvious loose wires, but I'm not sure if this would void the warranty.  I'll probably just take it back.

The warranty is not going to do you any good if the manufacturer can't and won't fix it. I suppose you might have an issue with the LHS if they choose to be difficult about a refund but presumably they recover from their supplier.

I have faced the question whether to take the shell off or return an engine a few times and in every case I opted to look under the hood. I have found failed solder points, pinched wires and loose board fittings that were relatively simple to fix. So I'd also vote for having a look.

Though I'm big on exploratory surgery with older engines, I wouldn't look under the hood for fear of voiding the warranty.  The dealer accepted the conditions imposed by Lionel in order to make the sale and, though I sympathize, it is what it is.

Best of luck, whatever your decision.

If you do pop the hood, check to make sure the wires from the truck pickups are not touching.  I fixed an old Atlas engine where the hot was rubbing the frame causing a short.

Interesting? I would call it bizarre. LC+ has only been around a couple of years, no? I would think they all have the same receivers and motor drivers, differing only in address and sound set. Lionel had better hope that all their starter sets work this Christmas or there will be a lot of disappointed kids and parents.

Pete

I don't care for the "void the warranty" sentiment. Much of the time, you will find the problem and avoid having to send the engine back. If you don't find it easily, just put it back to how you received it and return it. It's not brain surgery. Folks just like you made it and fix it. 

I'm pretty much resigned to know I may have to fix the next new Lionel item I buy.

I find Lionel Service lacking if they don't support a new engine with parts. Returning it to the LHS may be their agreement though. But it doesn't encourage us to buy Lionel.

I'm not positive about this, so maybe one of the LHS folks here could chime in to confirm or refute, but I believe the LHS will be credited by their distributer, and the distributer will, in turn, be credited by Lionel.  It may take a little while before all is said and done, but ultimately big L will foot the bill.  It is likely that it is easier for everyone involved to go through already established return channels for a product that Lionel deems not worth repairing.  

As for why they choose not to, it may be that they are just temporarly out of stock on a board for this unit, or that the board has been updated and that version is no longer an option.  More likely, I would guess is that they are assuming a critical failure if it is tripping a 10 amp breaker and also assume there is likely to be damage to more than one component, bringing the cost of repair, by the time labor is added, well above replacement cost.  If you have 10 amps of current or so flowing through a LC+ locomotive, whatever initially failed would obviously be bad, but that current is also likely to damage the rest of the wiring  and probably the pickups.

Basically I see nothing wrong with Lionel not wanting to waste anyone's time with a $250 engine.   

JGL

I would take a look inside. If it's something you can fix then you, your LHS and Lionel will all be a lot happier. If not, Lionel can't fix it either so I really don't see a problem there?

I recently took a brand new Legacy diesel apart because I didn't want to risk shipping it back to Lionel. Figured I would fight the warranty battle later, if it came to that. The smoke fan was DOA right out of the box, got the dreaded cab blinks first time on the track. I was lucky, a new MTH smoke fan motor that I had in my parts box fixed it right up. The fan motor was a LOT less than shipping would have been to Lionel, so we all came out ahead as I see it.  

Personally, it is a bit unsettling that they sell these new items and then can't repair them if someone has a problem with them. They really should be able to repair items they are selling, especially current products. I would understand if it was a 5 or 10 year old 'new' item that an LHS had been sitting on that hasn't been made for several years, but not their current new products.

If it is under warrantee, and you purchased it locally, I'd do what Lionel suggests and return it.

If Lionel told you that there are no parts available, then they consider it a disposable item. Why fight them?

It's not just Lionel

I was recently told by an Apple tech that my IPOD classic can no longer be "repaired" by Apple.

I chatted with him a bit, trying to get a recommendation on a third party repair service. Turns out that they never really repaired them. When they got one back under warrantee, they just sent the customer a new one.

Seems the only option is to contact the hobby store where you bought it. Good luck with that. Unfortunately this is todays way of doing things. Heck you can buy a new printer with ink for less than a Ink cartridge.  

C W Burfle posted:

I was recently told by an Apple tech that my IPOD classic can no longer be "repaired" by Apple.

I chatted with him a bit, trying to get a recommendation on a third party repair service. Turns out that they never really repaired them. When they got one back under warrantee, they just sent the customer a new one.

 

I just had a similar conversation at the Apple store a couple weeks ago. I asked if they still had the ipod classic? Their reply was no, the parts are obsolete (they implied it was mainly the storage device) and they can't no longer make them. The ipod touch (or iphone) is all they now have as a replacement.

I had the same response from Lionel a couple of months back when I contacted them with a problem I had with a brand new LionChief+ NYC RS-3.  They did not have the parts to repair it, nor did they have one to exchange for it.  They suggested I contact my LHS for a replacement, which I did, and he swapped it without issue on my next visit.

In July, I got the very fine LC+ Camelback.  Everything worked great!  For less than 30 minutes.  Headlight failed.  I think probably a loose wire, I'll fix it myself.  Then I remembered so many caveats on this forum about opening new items and voiding warranty.  I am fortunate to have 4 Lionel service stations within 20 miles.  Long story even longer, it was in and out of the shop thrice since July.  Just got it back this week.  The loose wire was not a loose wire.  It was a rather convoluted repair.  To the OP I would say have the LHS make it good.  Don't void the warranty.  LC+ is really cool when all cylinders are firing.

Hope this doesn't happen to the folks that purchased a "Big Boy".

I concur entirely with the opinion of the Right Honorable Mr. Galt.  Lionel has come to the same conclusion as McDonalds: no linen tablecloths for a Big Mac.

I've just had several great experiences with Lionel and their parts department, the most recent of which is worthy of mention.  Having searched exhaustively for a pair of Current Era freight trucks having electro-couplers, pickup rollers and friction bearings, I decided upon the Lionel PRR B6 tender trucks as being the most suitable.  I searched for the parts diagram, found it, spent an hour figuring out what I needed and within 10 days I had everything I'd ordered - all in cute little labeled baggies.  Everything fit and everything worked.

I do not own a B6, nor would I for it bears the mark of the beast - the dreaded PRR Keystone.  However, based solely on my viewing of Eric's product review, I believe it to be a real jewel... mechanically and electronically if not spiritually.  As I recall, the MSRP was around $700.  With steak you get linen.  Having been limited to hamburger for most of my days, it's nice to get steak served on linen, now and again, and I appreciate it all the more for having done with less.

Who is John Galt?

If memory serves, didn't Lionel have a recall on all of the LC+ RS's right after they were first shipped out? I want to say that dealers were still getting them, and had to turn around and return them to Lionel. The point being, maybe there's something funky about the LC+ RS3 that Lionel doesn't want to fix? Then again, right down to the trucks, inside they should be the same as the LC+ GP7. Whatever the case, it makes me wonder if Lionel has this same attitude when they design something like this? "It's cheap, so lets make it disposable". None of this makes me want to buy anything new from any of the importers.

I don't think it is a case of 'it's cheap so lets make it disposable' so much as it being more expensive to repair than to replace.  for example, if you wanted to, you could repair a burned out light bulb.  pull out a torch, melt a hole in the glass, clip the wires, weld on a new filament, pump the air out, and reform the glass.  Probably cost you a few hundred dollars to get it done, but you could.  I'll just buy a new light bulb for 99 cents.  In the case of the LC+ engine, I seem them listed for as little as $250.  My NW2 was $259 from the LHS.  Figure lionel only sees about 2/3 of that, at best.  so maybe $160.  if the board is sys $70 and it takes a tech an hour to do the repair, assuming they charge similar labour rates to other industries, you're looking at something like $140+ in repair.  From my time in auto body work I can tell you an insurance company is going to total any car that costs 87% of it's value to repair.  Not remotely worth the hassle, even if there is only the one thing wrong with the engine.  You could quickly get in way over the cost of replacement if there is more wrong.  

In addition I would suspect that non-working returned product can be written off on the taxes, making replacement almost free to Lionel, where, as stated above, repair could cost more than the value in the first place.  

JGL

Sounds like it's time for a change of hands if Lionel is gonna stay open longer than a few more years. All this interest in command control seems to be slowly strangling the company.

JohnGaltLine posted:

I don't think it is a case of 'it's cheap so lets make it disposable' so much as it being more expensive to repair than to replace.  for example, if you wanted to, you could repair a burned out light bulb.  pull out a torch, melt a hole in the glass, clip the wires, weld on a new filament, pump the air out, and reform the glass.  Probably cost you a few hundred dollars to get it done, but you could.  I'll just buy a new light bulb for 99 cents.  In the case of the LC+ engine, I seem them listed for as little as $250.  My NW2 was $259 from the LHS.  Figure lionel only sees about 2/3 of that, at best.  so maybe $160.  if the board is sys $70 and it takes a tech an hour to do the repair, assuming they charge similar labour rates to other industries, you're looking at something like $140+ in repair.  From my time in auto body work I can tell you an insurance company is going to total any car that costs 87% of it's value to repair.  Not remotely worth the hassle, even if there is only the one thing wrong with the engine.  You could quickly get in way over the cost of replacement if there is more wrong.  

In addition I would suspect that non-working returned product can be written off on the taxes, making replacement almost free to Lionel, where, as stated above, repair could cost more than the value in the first place.  

JGL

The subject in the first sentence of your reply BOTH mean the same thing.90% of consumer goods that Americans buy fall into this slot my friend.Nick

JohnGaltLine posted:

I don't think it is a case of 'it's cheap so lets make it disposable' so much as it being more expensive to repair than to replace.  for example, if you wanted to, you could repair a burned out light bulb.  pull out a torch, melt a hole in the glass, clip the wires, weld on a new filament, pump the air out, and reform the glass.  Probably cost you a few hundred dollars to get it done, but you could.  I'll just buy a new light bulb for 99 cents.  In the case of the LC+ engine, I seem them listed for as little as $250.  My NW2 was $259 from the LHS.  Figure lionel only sees about 2/3 of that, at best.  so maybe $160.  if the board is sys $70 and it takes a tech an hour to do the repair, assuming they charge similar labour rates to other industries, you're looking at something like $140+ in repair.  From my time in auto body work I can tell you an insurance company is going to total any car that costs 87% of it's value to repair.  Not remotely worth the hassle, even if there is only the one thing wrong with the engine.  You could quickly get in way over the cost of replacement if there is more wrong.  

In addition I would suspect that non-working returned product can be written off on the taxes, making replacement almost free to Lionel, where, as stated above, repair could cost more than the value in the first place.  

JGL

Your repair prices are way off. I have no idea what Lionel pays its techs but service stations were reimbursed $25 for warranty repairs and the boards cost them half of your number. Lionels cost for the boards is a fraction of that. A good tech can swap out boards in under 30 minutes, sometimes only takes 10 minutes if the problem is obvious.

Pete

Your costs seem more in line. 

JohnGaltLine posted:

I don't think it is a case of 'it's cheap so lets make it disposable' so much as it being more expensive to repair than to replace. 

In addition I would suspect that non-working returned product can be written off on the taxes, making replacement almost free to Lionel, where, as stated above, repair could cost more than the value in the first place.  

JGL

I agree. The failed items are likely not worth the expense of repairing or replacing from possibly non-existent stock. After all the flow-through of warranty money from manufacturer to distributor to LHS and purchaser, there's likely an insurance pay-out to the manufacturer too. Maybe there's a re-furbish operation somewhere, who knows? 

"Your repair prices are way off. I have no idea what Lionel pays its techs but service stations were reimbursed $25 for warranty repairs and the boards cost them half of your number. Lionels cost for the boards is a fraction of that. A good tech can swap out boards in under 30 minutes, sometimes only takes 10 minutes if the problem is obvious."  -- Norton

 Things can be disposable and quite expensive where it would be much more cost effective to use a reusable item.  Take a look at just about anything used in the medical industry for examples of this.

I'd be interested in some examples of this.
Expensive Medical devices are often not reusable because they cannot be properly sterilized for reuse.

I sent a couple of repairs to Lionel, a new Legacy remote under warentee and a camelback out of warantee only to get them back in less than 2 weeks repaired so I can't complain and have to say MTH should be that fast.

I've always viewed model trains as an investment in happiness so keeping to simple basic conventional operation has been the strategy here. Everything on my layout can be fixed or maintained with ordinary household tools.

Years back products were all simple and could be repaired. Lionel's remote control products are moving in the same direction that every other company is going. Today all of the household appliances are throw-a-way items. I have come to accept this when dealing with a $50 mixer or $168, 32" widescreen TV, as after a few years you just toss them in the rubbish pai. When a product costs  hundreds or a few thousands it changes the equation. Trins must be EASILY repairable to be on my layout. My 67 year old 2046 engine still runs like new and doesn't give me a headache. To give up that reliability is like flushing money down the toilet.

My approach (and my opinion) may be considered old fashioned, even backwards by many, but rock solid reliability and repairability is of prime importance to me.  BTW, I have been burned before with two Legacy items DOA out of the box. That sealed their fate- end of story.

With what this stuff costs there should be parts to repair it.  I don't understand a throw away society. Imagine having to throw away your Big boy because you can't get parts for it a few years down the road. It's funny to me you can buy enough parts to build a model A Ford but no parts for model trains no matter who builds them. Not a good way of promoting this hobby in my book.

Maintaining a parts inventory for the number of products currently in production is an unrealistic expectation overall, given the small numbers of each SKU sold.  If a manufacturer says they cannot repair it, but will refund your money (or refund the dealer and through them, you), I don't see what the problem is.  Disappointment yes.  But you get your money back and buy another engine that is similar or identical, if one is available.  The manufacturer, in this case, Lionel, cannot maintain a supply of replacement parts for everything they make until the heat death of the universe.  Just not possible.

They did it in the old days why not today?  To many things are thrown away filling up our landfills.  Plus think of the money train manufactures could be making off of parts. Maybe somebody in the after market could make parts for our trains.

"They did it in the old days why not today?"

I'd hazard a guess it has to do with the fact that today there are perhaps 10-20 times as many SKUs (many with unique parts) and they are selling 1/10th to 1/20th as many of each item.   Back in the old days, many locomotives and operating cars shared common parts.  Less so today. Compare the 1955 catalog with the 2015 catalogs and count the number of different products they would have to maintain parts for today compared with 60 years ago.   And one might consider that while Lionel was once a large company for its time, it is now a tiny company. The market is very different in variety and size. If they had to maintain parts for everything they made, they would soon be selling trains for a lot higher prices and going out of business.  They selectively maintain parts, and sometimes they miscalculate is another issue I'd guess.

Your theory may hold water for something exotic like a Big Boy or Centipede that were produced in lower numbers. The original post was about the LC+ RS3. This is a diesel that shares the complete chassis in parts with the LC+ GP7. There are multiple road names listed for these in multiple catalogs now. Come March, I'd bet Lionel still has LC+ RS3's and GP7's in the new catalog. These trucks with can motors go back ten or more years (was a blue C&O the first dual can motor GP7 from about 2005?). Point being, there should be no excuse for Lionel not to stock parts for a staple of its higher middle end product line. With the market for trains in general shrinking, it seems foolish for a company to treat consumers like this.

I still think the lack of a repair option has more to do with he cost of repair versus replacement, but the inventory issue also has problems.  Also may be a lack of techs trained in the lionchief boards, as they are going to be different from those in other products that have been around longer, both in form, and function.  If you look at the service parts, all the ones that are shared are listed and available.  the only ones that are call only are the engine specific ones, namely the boards for the engine and the remote.  These are not ( well not exactly) interchangeable with any other lionchief/+ engine type as the radios are coded specifically to that model.  Given the general lack of component level repair offered by Lionel, it is not so likely that they would opt for having to unsolder the radio transceiver and resolder to a new board.  This goes back to cost of labour.  it is not exactly hard, but it is also not in line with the general practice of replacing boards.  In addition, it may be that lionel orders the boards and transmitters in matched pairs and in the quantity needed for production.  Where a can motor, or r4lc board is the same in many products over many years, the boards are specific only to the RS3 at the level that the techs generally make repairs. 

As to the topic something to the effect of 'the company should support the products, this is horrible business'   I think that having someone return the product to the point of purchase for return or exchange is supporting it just fine.  If they said, "sorry, it can't be fixed and you're out of luck" that would be a different story, but in this case the consumer is no worse off.  I would guess that in several years, if board failures become even somewhat common, and as techs are trained to operate on these new designs, repairs will be more widely available.  

On the other hand, there can be an advantage to consumers in products that can not be repaired, or at least that are not intended to be repaired.  This doesn't so much apply to our trains, but to products in general.  The amount of design and cost of fasteners and such to make some products to be opened and repaired just isn't worth the trouble when the cost savings will bring the selling point below the cost of repair. It also takes a lot less overhead if you don't bother training people to repair low end product.  The system is already in place for returns and exchanges through the retailer, and that should satisfy the customer just fine...

Replies to this thread are largely educated and uneducated guesses and assumptions about Lionel's business formula details, and drawing conclusions from that.

And it's kind of beside the point. The bottom line is that a new product is not supported during the warranty period. The reasons don't matter to the consumer. It's a little like "waiter, there is a fly in my soup" and getting a treatise on the habits and difficulties of controlling flies in the kitchen. Chances are the consumer doesn't really need to know why, but just needs it to be fixed or replaced. Lionel, in this case, opted to put it on the dealer since they were unprepared to solve the problem themselves. They could have been a little more proactive...like "we'll take it back and fix or replace it". Whatever it takes.

That's what this thread is about.

JohnGaltLine posted:

I still think the lack of a repair option has more to do with he cost of repair versus replacement, but the inventory issue also has problems. 

 

John, You keep coming back to the cost of repair. You misunderstood my earlier post. Lionel doesn't reimburse $25 and hour. The shops are lucky to get a flat fee of $25 and then only if its deemed the repair might have taken that long. A simple board swap that takes under 10 minutes might not get anything for their time. The low labor reimbursement is the reason many stores don't do warranty repairs and tell the customer to send it back to Lionel. I believe its been posted that MTH reimburses nothing to the service center for warranty work other than parts. MTH guys can chime in on that one.

Sam J nailed it. New products made in large numbers should have the parts to back it up. No excuses.

Pete

If this an engine that you really want to keep, do you have Legacy or TMCC? I don't know the value of the engine but you can convert with ERR products. Not difficult to do, or you might convert to conventional by installing an E unit, Just a thought. I have a Legacy Big Boy that is having sound issues, it might well become a TMCC engine.

Ray

They just need to get back to the roots of the company: simple to operate, simple to fix, simple to maintain. If they're getting too caught up in the high end (command control and the like), that's there problem. But IF they are going to continue doing this and expect to remain in operation, they are going to have to realize that the bulletproof nature of their older products is what makes them popular, and that, just like in the 1960's and 70's, they can't just ride on their reputation and expect the same kind of demand consistently. Their market is shrinking because their profit margin is increasing, and we are all suffering because of it. Now these are just my 2 cents, and unducated ones at that, but think about them (looking at the guys from Lionel that are on the forum) before anything else goes on.

John, You keep coming back to the cost of repair. You misunderstood my earlier post. Lionel doesn't reimburse $25 and hour. The shops are lucky to get a flat fee of $25 and then only if its deemed the repair might have taken that long. A simple board swap that takes under 10 minutes might not get anything for their time. The low labor reimbursement is the reason many stores don't do warranty repairs and tell the customer to send it back to Lionel. I believe its been posted that MTH reimburses nothing to the service center for warranty work other than parts. MTH guys can chime in on that one.

Sam J nailed it. New products made in large numbers should have the parts to back it up. No excuses.

 

Pete

We ceased being a service center for this very reason.  The reimbursement rate, at Lionel's discretion, was too low for any service provider.  MTH used to send out trinkets such as pens, pins, stickers, ornaments, mouse pads as labor reimbursement.  When I questioned MTH about this practice, we were supposed to sell the trinkets as our labor reimbursement. 

My other two service department labor rates are $65/hour and $100/hour. 

Lionel and MTH need to step it up and take back defective product directly as a "cost of doing business" rather than push it onto the LHS.

cjack posted:

Replies to this thread are largely educated and uneducated guesses and assumptions about Lionel's business formula details, and drawing conclusions from that.

And it's kind of beside the point. The bottom line is that a new product is not supported during the warranty period. The reasons don't matter to the consumer. It's a little like "waiter, there is a fly in my soup" and getting a treatise on the habits and difficulties of controlling flies in the kitchen. Chances are the consumer doesn't really need to know why, but just needs it to be fixed or replaced. Lionel, in this case, opted to put it on the dealer since they were unprepared to solve the problem themselves. They could have been a little more proactive...like "we'll take it back and fix or replace it". Whatever it takes.

That's what this thread is about.

I am making assumptions, based on general practices that businesses follow.  In the soup analogy, however, I think  it was more like this.  The waiter brought out the soup and a fly flew into it at the table (the engine worked when it was purchased from the retailer).  The customer then called the factory where the soup is manufactured in bulk.  At which point the factory said, why don't you just call your waiter over and ask for another bowl of soup.  

Norton posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

I still think the lack of a repair option has more to do with he cost of repair versus replacement, but the inventory issue also has problems. 

 

John, You keep coming back to the cost of repair. You misunderstood my earlier post. Lionel doesn't reimburse $25 and hour. The shops are lucky to get a flat fee of $25 and then only if its deemed the repair might have taken that long. A simple board swap that takes under 10 minutes might not get anything for their time. The low labor reimbursement is the reason many stores don't do warranty repairs and tell the customer to send it back to Lionel. I believe its been posted that MTH reimburses nothing to the service center for warranty work other than parts. MTH guys can chime in on that one.

Sam J nailed it. New products made in large numbers should have the parts to back it up. No excuses.

 

Pete

Here I think we have a basic misunderstanding in what a repair facility is.  to the best of my knowledge Lionel has not trained new techs in quite some time now, and no one out side of North Carolina is trained on the inner working of Lionchief.  What an authorized service center is or is not paid is of no matter on a repair that can only be made at headquarters.  

Also as eluded to above, with lionchief, there is no such thing as a 'simple' board swap. the radio is type specific, and must be soldered on to the control board.  I'm sure it could have been designed with a plug, but given the number of posts on " unplug and reseat the r2lc" that ate around here, I think the right choice was made in using solder for a low end product.   now I wouldn't find this process very hard, but it seems to be out of the realm of what 'trained techs' usually do.  

I still don't see the problem to the consumer if they end up with a working product or refund.  It should not matter in the slightest if that happens by repair or by replacement.  

Edit:  The more I think about it, the more perfect I think the fly in the soup analogy really is.  Here we are going back and forth about what type of fly repellent should be put in the soup and what sort of nets the restaurant should have on the windows, when in the end all the customer has to do is ask the waiter for a new bowl of soup or a refund on the fly-soup.  

JGL