As this has been discussed at some length hereabouts over the past several years, including by Lionel personnel this how this works. Lionel does not maintain or order parts stocks. When the models are imported some number of extras are imported to cover expected failures. And they get all the leftover parts not used during manufacture when the models are imported. Models that do fail are returned to Lionel who disassembles them for parts. If you go to Lionel's website looking for parts all of the parts you see came from models that were either returned or had problems before they were ever sold or delivered to customers or LHS or were leftover parts from manufacturing. Once these parts are gone there will be no more parts for them - ever. Overseas builders have made it plain to all the importers they do not and will support maintenance of products. The cost is just too high. This is true for iPhones and Visio, etal TVs as well as model trains.
Made in the USA is sounding better and better...
El Classico posted:Made in the USA is sounding better and better...
Wouldn't make a beans of difference.
rdunniii posted:Once these parts are gone there will be no more parts for them - ever.
Sadly, the above is true....and it makes you (or me, at least) wonder how/ why people are paying $900-$2,500 for Legacy Steamers knowing full well that this is what the future will look like. And it will. Parts fail. Models are dropped or damaged in shipping, derail on the layout, short out, etc.
IMHO, the business model is greatly flawed....at the expense of the consumer. The BTO Program is simply rubbing salt in the wounds. "Buy this item sight unseen. It will probably work....for while. And we will service it...for a while. After which point in time, it will become an expensive boat anchor, like your CW-80 Transformers."
I've had only one problem Legacy Steamer...but it's been a nightmare and I haven't purchased a new Legacy loco since. (I actually attempted to take it to a LHS that ALLEGEDLY is an approved service center yesterday....and it was by far the worst LHS experience I've had in the hobby. I was near The Square, in Medina, OH.....if that matters.)
Boo Ho for Lionel, It is easier to get replacement parts for post and prewar trains than new items? Disposable $1200.00 loco?
Berkshire President posted:rdunniii posted:Once these parts are gone there will be no more parts for them - ever.
Sadly, the above is true....and it makes you (or me, at least) wonder how/ why people are paying $900-$2,500 for Legacy Steamers knowing full well that this is what the future will look like. And it will. Parts fail. Models are dropped or damaged in shipping, derail on the layout, short out, etc.
IMHO, the business model is greatly flawed....at the expense of the consumer. The BTO Program is simply rubbing salt in the wounds. "Buy this item sight unseen. It will probably work....for while. And we will service it...for a while. After which point in time, it will become an expensive boat anchor, like your CW-80 Transformers."
I've had only one problem Legacy Steamer...but it's been a nightmare and I haven't purchased a new Legacy loco since. (I actually attempted to take it to a LHS that ALLEGEDLY is an approved service center yesterday....and it was by far the worst LHS experience I've had in the hobby. I was near The Square, in Medina, OH.....if that matters.)
You guys act like Lionel is the only one with this issue. I doubt there is an importer today in our hobby that doesn't have the same issues. While I think it's stinks that Lionel doesn't have the part, I suspect there are a lot of other brands without a long term supply of parts either.
Marty: You're right....but I don't buy much from the other guys....and I certainly don't shell "them" a grand plus for a scale steam loco.
Don't get me wrong. I really like the new Legacy products....for the most part. Most of the time, they are tip top and life is grand.
But when you have a problem with a warranty repair, finding parts, or are having to get the same loco repaired over and over again....hoping your model survives shipping....it's like getting a colonoscopy every day....without anesthesia.
For me, it comes down to this: When you charge a premium price, you darn well better offer a premium service or product....or something close to it. Personally, I don't think Lionel offers this at the present time....so I don't buy anything new.
Hmmmm, I thought I made it clear this is NOT a Lionel thing. It is an manufactured in China thing. The same is true for Apple as Lionel. My wife's 18 month old iPhone died a week ago and all Apple said was it is out of warranty so there is nothing to do but replace it, on her nickel. Apple will sell her a refurbished one with no warranty at all for $150 or she can go elsewhere. I used Visio as the example for TVs because if you get one of those and if is under warranty they will just replace it with a new one. After the warranty you're just SOL. And this is Costco talking not Visio, who won't talk to you at all.
As for made in the USA? There are two possibilities, either double the price, or more; or, it has to be made almost 100% by automated machinery. That is how Apple is manufacturing things in the US. The only thing the people in the manufacturing plants do is accounting; materials in and product out. They don't actually make anything and what maintenance is required is done buy subs.
On 60 minutes last night Charlie Rose talked to Tim Cook about it. When I graduated from High School one of the careers I wanted to pursue was tool and die making. To my father vocations like that were completely unacceptable. My father was part of the problem. America has completely ****ed away those vocations in favor of college level professions. China has vocational schools devoted to only tool and die making. The unbelievably sad part in this country is that jouneyman level tool and die makers get paid much better than the majority of college graduates and the demand for them is much higher. By companies such as, oh say, Apple.
My wife's 18 month old iPhone died a week ago and all Apple said was it is out of warranty so there is nothing to do but replace it, on her nickel. Apple will sell her a refurbished one with no warranty at all for $150 or she can go elsewhere.
True, if one wants or needs a cell phone, one is stuck with a disposable item. But there is a choice with toy trains.
Well, look at the profit margin, too. Mernards O gauge cars are of comparable quality to Lionel's, yet sell for 1/3 the price. While I'm not saying that Lionel's taking us for a bunch of suckers, when people are interested in selling a decent product and not how many denaro they can stuff their pockets with, it's a heck of a lot less than people realize. Plus, made in the US means that service can be next to production again, and parts can be stored at the owners discretion, and all in all, a healthy, working service department.
Regarding iPhones and they like, we all buy these realizing that they are a technology and as such, will be obsolete and unusable at some point.
Not so with Model Trains. I expect my TMCC locomotives from 2003 to work. Fortunately, they all do. Likewise, I expect my Lionel NYC Mohawk from 1990 and my not-even-close to scale Lionel NKP Berk from 1982 to work....and they do.
Our model trains are not supposed to expire.....IMHO. Big difference. And that's the source of much of the angst and aggravation these days. If the Lionel NKP Berk from 2014 can be passed down to a son or grandson several decades down the road, it's much easier to justify it's $1,100 cost....especially if it works as it should in the meantime.
If, on the other hand, the loco needs to go back to the factory four times b/c the smoke unit doesn't work and the pilot came with broken bearings.....then I doubt it will be getting passed on or down to anyone as it struggles to exist in day to day operations in the present. At that point, it's not worth anywhere near the money.
FWIW...and I realize that my sample size is too small to be useful...but my Lionel Legacy Steamers that do not have Whistle Steam have ZERO problems and run like tanks. For whatever reason, the Whistle Steam units seem cursed.....and they cost more.....and there was BTO. So, for considerably more money, I'm getting considerably less in return. So I have stopped buying them.
