Interesting Standard Gauge track discovery while making 5 rail track

Also note the crimping of the outside rail. Lionel really put some heavy duty crimps there!

George

George -

I was very intrigued by your post title about "5 - rail track"... after reading, did you mean "five cross-ties" ?

I got my first ever Standard Gauge set in November, and have been working with early "wide-tie" SG Lionel track: three ties for the straight sections, four ties for the curves.

As far as I know, Lionel increased to four/straight // five/curved when they went to black ties circa 1929.

All of my track  / switches has aged to a dark grey patina, ties and all.  In some cases there are small areas of bright tin on the undersides of ties, and on the webs of the rail tubes.

My theory is that this pre-Black-Tie track was all bright & shiny tin-plate, top & bottom when it was new.

The ties in your picture support this theory, as well as the occasional very well-preserved track  or switch that show-up on e-bay.

As for the "points" under the center rail, I can't speak for that... I have not disassembled enough track to comment.

As for the crimps, they are indeed heavy-duty, and unless one has a special press & die, I don't believe it is possible to get those crimps as tight as Lionel did 100 years ago....  I have the aluminum die and block from PE Engineering; it's good, but the crimps I did on an early power section rebuild are not as tight, and the track has more twist-flex than it did originally.

Lionel track seems to have four crimps / flutes, some early SG track has only three crimps / flutes on the outer rails.

I will post some pics of some of my track when I can find them.

Let us see some of your finished track !

Regards,

Fran McM. 

I do have some "junk" Lionel SG track ( terminal rust) that I can disassemble and check...

Like you I am just beginning my Standard Gauge addiction and have finally acquired some track to run my rebuilt 10E.  One thing I noticed between Lionel and Ives track is the manner in which the rail is crimped on the bottom.  Lionel is a simple fold, Ives closer to a roll.  Lionel track on the left - Ives right.

George,

I have also found that I have two different radii of wide-tie early track: don't have enough of either to make a complete circle of either to get a measurement, but if I take a section of curved track from each, and put them rail-to-rail, lining-up the end of say the inner-rail, and pinching between thumb and fore-finger tightly, to keep them aligned, the difference in radius is obvious at the middle of the rail.

This has caused me a little difficulty in assembling a floor loop:  it is supposed to take eight sections to make a circle, but the ends do not meet ( about an inch + gap), and I have to kind of force things together.

Without the slide-on track-locks, it would not stay together.  My Christmas loop has two half-sections of straight track at 12 & 6 o'clock, so that eases the geometry a little bit.

Have you found any ties with a slightly raised circular area around the crimps for the center rail ?

Fran McM.

I used to play (or fool?) with original old track decades ago, but have neither the tme nor the patience to do so at present.

Fran McM posted:

George,

I have also found that I have two different radii of wide-tie early track: don't have enough of either to make a complete circle of either to get a measurement, but if I take a section of curved track from each, and put them rail-to-rail, lining-up the end of say the inner-rail, and pinching between thumb and fore-finger tightly, to keep them aligned, the difference in radius is obvious at the middle of the rail.

This has caused me a little difficulty in assembling a floor loop:  it is supposed to take eight sections to make a circle, but the ends do not meet ( about an inch + gap), and I have to kind of force things together.

Without the slide-on track-locks, it would not stay together.  My Christmas loop has two half-sections of straight track at 12 & 6 o'clock, so that eases the geometry a little bit.

Have you found any ties with a slightly raised circular area around the crimps for the center rail ?

 

Fran McM.

I believe the original track was all STD 42 (42" diameter). MTH made STD 42, STD 72 and STD 84. USA Track now makes 42", 57", 72", 84" and 87" curves. You can get several different varieties of the number of ties.

I am actually making 5 rail tubular track that can run either Standard Gauge or O Gauge trains. I'll post some pictures in a bit. The ties get wacky when you are making 5 rail track, because there is no 5 rail track tie. You have to mix both standard gauge and o gauge ties.

I'm not sure what you mean about the raised circular area around the center rail connections. Also, the center rail should not be crimped. It will just have tabs that bend over to hold the insulator to the rail and center the rail.

George 

Here is my 5 rail track.

IIRC, the very first Lionel SG track was a smaller diameter, something like 036.  Very rare today.

Fran - a simple answer I think you may be missing is 5 rail track means you can run o gauge on the two inner rails and standard gauge on the two outer.  The middle rail serving as the power rail to either.  Giving you the option of running both sizes on the same line.

Wow!  That’s pretty clever!

So one removes the center rail from the O gauge section and puts it aside, then clamps the center-less O gauge section around the center rail of the SG section? The O ties just float under the SG rails?

Does one have to tweak the radius of either gauge section?

Any issues with early SG wheels binding on the O rails?

George S posted:

Today I am back to making 5 rail track. I am using a mix of old and new track trying to conserve the track I already own. Years ago, before USA Track, I bought some ancient track that I used mostly on carpet layouts around the holidays. Some of this was silver tie Lionel. Today, I was using the rails from some of that track and found that I had put a piece of paper under the center tie on one section. I’m sure I just fixed the short and moved on at the time. Today, I took the track apart and examined the insulator. Then I saw these little spikes on the tie. Lionel apparently put them there to hold the insulator in place and speed track assembly. However, this little spike apparently wore through the insulator over time enough to create a short.  Here are some pictures. The ties are engraved Lionel and NY.

 

George

George- what gauge are these silver ties?

Didn't/does somebody (Gargraves?) offer five rail track, for shelf displays, etc.?  Not still available?

Fran - I think you are still missing the point.  You have an o gauge track in the middle three rails.  Two outer rails are outside these to run standard gauge trains on.  Same middle rail for power.  There is no problem with the radius for either.  Most classic standard gauge trains were made to run on 42” (approximately) diameter track.  Don’t overthink this.  Three rails in the middle for o gauge.  Middle rail and the two outside rails for standard gauge.

Cheers,       W1

Fran McM posted:

George S posted:

Today I am back to making 5 rail track. I am using a mix of old and new track trying to conserve the track I already own. Years ago, before USA Track, I bought some ancient track that I used mostly on carpet layouts around the holidays. Some of this was silver tie Lionel. Today, I was using the rails from some of that track and found that I had put a piece of paper under the center tie on one section. I’m sure I just fixed the short and moved on at the time. Today, I took the track apart and examined the insulator. Then I saw these little spikes on the tie. Lionel apparently put them there to hold the insulator in place and speed track assembly. However, this little spike apparently wore through the insulator over time enough to create a short.  Here are some pictures. The ties are engraved Lionel and NY.

 

George

George- what gauge are these silver ties?

These are Standard Gauge Lionel from early 1900's.

colorado hirailer posted:

Didn't/does somebody (Gargraves?) offer five rail track, for shelf displays, etc.?  Not still available?

I believe the 5 rail Gargraves track was for a gantry crane. I owned a section of that. It was not gauged for Standard Gauge. Also, Gargraves is a low profile track like O27. It won't handle some of the large flanged engines. My understanding is that nobody makes tubular 5 rail.

George

Fran McM posted:

Wow!  That’s pretty clever!

So one removes the center rail from the O gauge section and puts it aside, then clamps the center-less O gauge section around the center rail of the SG section? The O ties just float under the SG rails?

Does one have to tweak the radius of either gauge section?

Any issues with early SG wheels binding on the O rails?

 

 

 

Yes, the O gauge ties float. No, there is enough space for the SG wheels to clear the O rails.

The only issue is that the track lengths of the STD and O are different, so you may need to cut straights and partial curves depending on the track design. For example, there are 12 O sections in a circle and 8 STD sections. Quarter circle turns can be made without cutting. O gauge straights are 10" and STD are 14". 

George

George S posted:

colorado hirailer posted:

Didn't/does somebody (Gargraves?) offer five rail track, for shelf displays, etc.?  Not still available?

I believe the 5 rail Gargraves track was for a gantry crane. I owned a section of that. It was not gauged for Standard Gauge. Also, Gargraves is a low profile track like O27. It won't handle some of the large flanged engines. My understanding is that nobody makes tubular 5 rail.

George

I had quite a bit of the Gargraves 5 rail but sold it. I couldn’t get it smoothly bent to the tighter curves I needed. They say 72” min, I needed 60 or less. Also the rail height was an issue in a couple pieces of my rolling stock. Finally made my own 42” and 57” 5  rail.

Steve

Nice work George. Too bad no one ever manufactured 5 rail. Wonder if we can plant the seed in Menards brain. They seem to be the people that would be most willing to try something outside the box.

My club. Insulated all rails. So you can run both gauges at the same time.  Separate power.

George- thanks for your replies!

This is blowing my mind today... 🙂

if I were to do this again, I’d start with Menards O track and add the outer rails, but this is what I did.

Steve

https://youtu.be/84gGR_fO7ww

I bought Menards O-96 track, took apart Standard gauge O-42 curve track to get extra ties and used those ties with the 0-96 to make 5 rail.  The standard gauge 0-42 rails were then used with o gauge ties to make 0-42 curves. 

In this process, I learned that Menards rail is wider on the bottom than USA Track. This made putting the insulators on the Menards rail difficult. I should have removed the Menards center rail and used the USA Track rail. I thought I was saving time. Also, I ran out of STD 42 curves. However, I had plenty of extra ties and center rails. I just had to cut some of the leftover center rail to fit. It’s all done. I’ll have a video to share tomorrow in my layout build thread. I had some wiring problems with my TIU that slowed me down tonight. 

George

riki posted:

My club. Insulated all rails. So you can run both gauges at the same time.  Separate power.

Dang it! That’s a great idea, but too late now. That would allow me to run two conventional trains simultaneously. I can do it with modern DCS trains.

George

George.  You would want blocks.  I did crash my 0 into my STD. 

Digital. I guess you could keep them separated.

Few years ago I bought track from Kirk. To make 5 rail. Never got to it. 

Think if I start again. I will get different radius curves from Kirk.. I bought my track un assembled.

I wanted to run my 736 in front of my STD berk.  

riki posted:

George.  You would want blocks.  I did crash my 0 into my STD. 

Digital. I guess you could keep them separated.

Few years ago I bought track from Kirk. To make 5 rail. Never got to it. 

Think if I start again. I will get different radius curves from Kirk.. I bought my track un assembled.

I wanted to run my 736 in front of my STD berk.  

 

I ran it today after fixing my DCS problem. Both trains are MTH with PS/2-3. One is STD and the other is O. You can’t use the DCS ‘all’ command. The trains run at different speeds due to scale. However, you can manually run each train at roughly the same speed. They are running on the same DCS  channel and transformer just like running trains of the same scale. MTH engines don’t pull too much current. Even with lighted passenger cars and both trains, I am only at 3 amps.

George

riki posted:

George.  You would want blocks.  I did crash my 0 into my STD. 

Digital. I guess you could keep them separated.

Few years ago I bought track from Kirk. To make 5 rail. Never got to it. 

Think if I start again. I will get different radius curves from Kirk.. I bought my track un assembled.

I wanted to run my 736 in front of my STD berk.  

 

You have a standard gauge Berk? I would love to see that.

George

top video. Better picture . George. I converted an mth 392e.  Next up. Converting mth 400e to a Hudson. I had the rock island behind to berk. 

Here it's sperate 

Wow, interesting. Is that also a G scale train converted to run on standard gauge track?

Yes .

colorado hirailer posted:

Didn't/does somebody (Gargraves?) offer five rail track, for shelf displays, etc.?  Not still available?

Gargraves actually made at least two types of five rail track.   One type combined 3-rail Standard Gauge with 3-rail O gauge track with O gauge centered inside the Standard Gauge.  The other was for use in displaying Standard Gauge, G gauge and O gauge trains on the same track.  On this track the G gauge rails were slightly offset to create the rail separation required for O gauge.  I used quite a bit of it to display my Standard/G/O gauge Milwaukee Road trains on shelves in my basement family room.

Bob Nelson

WOW! Nice wall.

Steve

Rescued Trains posted:

WOW! Nice wall.

Steve

Thanks!

Bob Nelson

it has been produced.  

Edmund Schwartzel 060518 posted:

it has been produced.  

Edmund,

Your picture is of the Gargraves 5-rail track with the O gauge centered inside the Standard Gauge.

When I get a chance, I will go out to my barn and attempt to find an example of the Gargraves 5-rail track with offset G gauge rails.  I will then take a photo and post it.

Bob Nelson

Gargraves still offers five rail STD/0 flex track (catalog #501-201).  Great for display shelves, but like all Gargraves standard gauge track, the 0-27 size rails don't accommodate the  wheels and flanges of all standard gauge trains.  Traditional tinplate tubular standard 0 and standard gauge track have rails which are considerably taller.

Kirk Lindvig

www.sgma.us

Kirk

Is it possible for you to cut the curve rails for 5 rail.?

navy.seal posted:

Edmund Schwartzel 060518 posted:

 

Edmund,

Your picture is of the Gargraves 5-rail track with the O gauge centered inside the Standard Gauge.

When I get a chance, I will go out to my barn and attempt to find an example of the Gargraves 5-rail track with offset G gauge rails.  I will then take a photo and post it.

Bob Nelson

Bob, 

It would be interested to see this picture, since it might answer my question posted a long time ago:

https://ogrforum.com/...-gauge-in-the-garden

Regards

Fred