Interview of Lionel & MTH for S Gaugian

Bill could you post that email adress here?

 

--Rocco--

It is billstrains@aol.com

 

I look forward to questions as I have not gotten any.  Please post them here if need be.

What I`m interested in is Mike Wolf mentioning a number of times that he would like to see Swinging Bells and Smoking Whistles in all of MTH` Gauges including S Gauge and has even mentioned Smoke and other effects in Z and N.

Bill

Over the next day or two I will craft an email for you. 

My main concern is what Lionel's direction is now...I see little future in just rehashed traditional pieces. 

Ben.

For MTH, I am assuming they will bring out the old SHS line before tooling up for anything new. Which is fine. I heard Mike was having trouble making electro-couplers for the F-units. I will be installing Kadees anyway. Do we need that feature for the large high-rail couplers? Wouldn't the uncoupling track be sufficient? 

Here's a thought; retool a section of straight track for a Kadee uncoupling magnet. Or an electromagnet to accomplish the same thing.

SHS had some items they were researching. Like a bay-window caboose, E-units. If tooling or partial tooling exists, pursue that. They would be nice. Passenger cars would be welcome too. MTH puts in real interiors, not silhouettes. Calling these baby steps, would be inappropriate as these projects are huge in scope.

 

Lionel.

Lionel is capable of bringing us the Y-3, the SD70s (Need I mention the headlight placement debacle?)

I would say be sensitive of detail placement like they did with the U33Cs, the Challengers, and the Y-3s.

Then we get some great new diesels, and the tooling is only good for NS and a handful of others, as the majority of other railroads ordered lower headlights. $400+ is too high to pay for inaccurate models.

And a couple members of this forum fabricated bolsters to correct the sky-high bolsters that came with the covered hoppers. Nice cars. So close to being accurate. I like the trucks with the rotating end caps. Fix the bolster.

I bought a lot of this stuff. I support them when they get it right.  I even support them when they make correctable items like the cylindrical hoppers. But it would be nice to be right in the first place. Then give us a Kadee coupler pads incorporated into the underframe, and offer scale wheelsets.

So take a step back to the logic they used in making flexible tooling in the U33Cs etc., and carry on. Lionel can do it. They did it in the recent past.

Onward.  

 

If nothing else, I would suggest to both Lionel and MTH to send representation to where S Gaugers/Scalers congregate: NASG conventions, S Sprees, S Fests, etc. 

 

They don't have to go overboard like they do for York or other big shows.  Just maybe a couple of samples and a good listening ear. 

 

Meet with us, discuss with us, explain to us what is possible or not possible, without all the extra static of the throngs at York or other large public shows. 

 

Rusty

Guys, go back and look at the questions for last year's interviews.  They need to be rather short with a specific question to a topic.  This so they can be answered in a paragraph or two.

 

Example:  Will your company consider going to meets which are specific to S to show your S gauge product line and listen to what S gauge hobbiests have to say about what they think of current and past products plus the products they would like to have you produce?

 

Thanks

I never was very good at Jeopardy...

 

But that's exactly what I was eluding to.   I hope it gets asked.

 

Rusty

Rusty....That is a good question and will be used for the interview.

 

Bill

"Will your company consider going to meets which are specific to S to show your S gauge product line and listen to what S gauge hobbiests have to say about what they think of current and past products plus the products they would like to have you produce?"

 

   I think a better question would be "Why doesn't your company go to HO and N scale shows and see how the products are made and who they are sold to? Why force modelers into the other scales by not building any scale products"..DaveB

Good question to get an interview terminated right quick.

 

Rusty

"Good question to get an interview terminated right quick."

 

  Depends on whether they are truly interested in learning what modelers want or just going thru the motions of making it look like they do?   According to market share figures HO and N are doing quite well so learning their secrets might be a good thing for a company to explore? S scale growth has no rip roaring trail of success to brag about as it is so anything learned would be an improvement.....DaveB

As someone who is relatively new to S-gauge I'd ask them "what are your plans to attract new modelers to s-gauge?"

 

In my mind the easiest way to do this is via value-priced starter sets and a basic track system that includes switches.  Right now the starter set offerings are rather meager and still no switches.  

 

In the end growing s-gauge benefits everyone as the larger the market the less risky it will be for manufacturers to bring out new product offerings.

 

Of course part of me wonders if Lionel is afraid of cannibalizing sales from their O gauge market.   The first thing people say when they see my modest train layout is "wow, those locos and cars are just the right size".   But if they go to a LHS, chances are they won't even see one S item, let alone a convenient and value-priced starter set in S.

DaveB -  Rusty is right.  When you do an interview with Lionel or MTH the object is to get information not make someone angery.  

 

I know a lot of guys on the forum are upset with Lionel but an interview can't help them.  Lionel is a staple in the O Gauge market.  In my conversations with them they build on that not on HO & N. 

"When you do an interview with Lionel or MTH the object is to get information not make someone angry." 

 

   I don't want to make them angry I just want them to figure out how to make something I can buy. There's tons of HO and N stuff to buy but very little S stuff. If they want to be S manufacturers and grow the S scale market they need to manufacture stuff for us to buy. As StCroix noted above them being O manufacturers might not be the best thing for S scale, they may prefer to keep S from cutting into their O sales so they just make re-runs of old flyer stuff to pick the low hanging fruit? Ideally a manufacturer that wants to compete with O and HO scale would come along and really develop S scale to it's true potential......DaveB

That's why I think it's preferable that they send some representation to S events.  True, it's a small audience, anywhere from 200-400 folks at any of these events, but is a place to start without the distractions of O, HO and N.

 

The way your question was phrased, you imply that Lionel or MTH don't know how to make model trains.  Both companies know how to make model trains.  Suggesting they to go "learn the secrets" of HO and N manufacturers is a borderline insult. 

 

Besides, Athearn, Atlas, Walthers, Exact Rail, Rapido, Kato and so forth don't know the S market (other than to steer clear of it) any better than Lionel or MTH, and they're not going to surrender their "secrets," (if they even have any,) to a competitor that could potentially draw away "their" customers.

 

The S market is different from the HO, N and even O markets.  It's a small market that has survived on small manufacturers for most of it's existence.  And yes, that's part of the problem. 

 

There really is no "instant" brand loyalty in S like there is in O.  That's something both Lionel and MTH have to understand and overcome.  MTH at present has probably a better shot at it than Lionel, if for no other reason they have the ex-SHS product line to start with. 

 

Lionel's done some good thing in S, then they go and fall flat on their face on some simple things.  There's promise with the FlyerChief sets, but the delay in getting them to market has worked to Lionel's disadvantage.

 

Hopefully, we'll finally see locomotives from MTH soon and there's still about 50-60% of ex-SHS product still not re-released.  However, the true test for MTH will be if and when they go beyond SHS offerings.

 

Rusty

"The S market is different from the HO, N and even O markets"

 

    There's no physical reason that S is different, just the supply and demand situation. O is larger than S and HO is smaller than S so why wouldn't S sell as well as they do if we were offered the same amount of stuff to buy? Look how the obscure On30 market grew when Bachman decided to make On30 stuff for folks to buy? I've see a lot more people asking for more S scale stuff than I ever saw asking for On30 stuff before Bachman developed that segment of the hobby...DaveB

Probably 98% of the HO market has standardized on DC, DCC or DCC compatible with Kadee couplers (or equivalent) wheelsets that meet NMRA standards.  I don't see a big contingent clamoring for X2f couplers, or the NEM flanges and three pole motors that Rivarrossi used to use.  Plus, I seriously doubt anyone in HO's wanting a rebirth of the old rubberband drive.

 

In S deep flange, Code 110 flange, Flyer compatible couplers and Kadee's are the norm.

 

The S market will soon have to contend with three command control systems, (TMCC/Legacy, DCS and DCC) plus Conventional AC and DC systems. 

 

Now to Lionel and MTH's credit, they've both realized that DCC is the common thread in command systems, so both their systems are compatible in some respect.

 

As far as On30 goes, Bachmann cashed in first on the Novelty factor aimed at the ceramic village folks.  The original ON30 sets were relatively inexpensive, simple (straight DC) and could be expanded with standard HO track. 

 

But, while Bachmann remains the leader in On30, resistance is growing because of price.  Selection is shrinking and locomotive MSRP's are increasing beyond $400 with DCC/no sound.  Sound is now to be installed by the user at additional cost.  The stuff is still nice, but even the "street" prices are seeming to lack in value. 

 

I'll grant that S lacks in the variety and exposure of HO.  It has been that way for a very long time.  I'm sure American Models, S Scale America and others would like it to be different, but one just can't snap their fingers and say "make it so."

 

Rusty

>> When you do an interview with Lionel or MTH the object
is to get information not make someone angery.  

 

I think a better objective would be to educate Lionel regarding their marketing and quality control and communication problems.  It is difficult to believe they even understand what these problems are when there is zero improvement over time.  Lionel has the ability to design and manufacture outstanding models, but chooses not to use that ability to good advantage.  I'd rather see one superb realistic model than five disappointing toy-like fantasy products that do not even stay on the track, couple/uncouple properly or otherwise operate correctly.

Ed, You are off base a lot.  My objective is not to educate but to write an article.

Question for MTH

 

will they be looking to make a #4 or #5 switch to match the flexi track?

I agree with Ukaflyer's question to MTH on the flex track turnouts, also, when will the flex track finally be released? 

 

MTH's track is based on what S Helper produced in the past.  Will their new turnouts be capable of handling both scale and high rail wheels like the S Helper design which incorporated a closed frog system?

 

Once MTH has a locomotive available, will they also come out with an entry set?

 

I think you could ask both Lionel and MTH about their overall plans to expand the track offerings like wider radius curves and turnouts. 

 

Does Lionel ever see offering flex track and turnouts?

 

Mike A.

Make that 4... I'm seriously considering using the Ring Engineering RailPro system

http://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm

 

As far as questions go, I grilled Andy Edleman on S last year at the Cleveland NMRA show. I've shared his responses here before so I won't repeat other than to say it will likely be a slow steady process of reissues before they even consider any new products. Or so I was told.

 

Lionel is a different animal. I seriously doubt they would actually answer the questions honestly. The question I would like to get get an answer to is simple: Does Lionel plan to continue to produce new S SCALE products? Will we see newly tooled steam and diesels with scale wheels and couplers?

Hmmm.  Interesting.

Bill - thanks for taking this on.  I'd be interested to know if either MTH or Lionel have any plans to issue (or reissue) 'smaller' steam locomotives.  SHS had a sweet-looking 2-8-0 - does MTH have any plans to reissue that?  The MTH 2013 catalog doesn't show it.

 

As for Lionel, they did issue the 2-8-2 and a (much more limited run?) 4-6-2 - neither of which has appeared in recent catalogs.  Do they have any plans to bring those out again (I'm assuming they are no longer offered)?  There are some older ACG models that I think would be interesting - the 0-6-0 slope-back-tender switcher comes to mind.

Here is a quote from the Lionel web site:

 

"Questions that concern Lionel marketing of product, etc. are 'company private' issues and are not shared with individuals outside the executive and marketing areas of the company."

Bill

 

After seeing the AF catalog for 2015 I have only one question for Lionel;

 

Is this this a temporary lul in the legacy equipt pieces (al a challenger, Y3, u33c...) or are we done getting Legacy pieces?  

 

At this point that's all I want to know From them.  

 

For MTH I think that we will not see anything outside of the SHS inventory for quite some time.  Will MTH continue to offer the products that they have already got out there (box cars, reefers, hoppers....) in additional road names and paint schemes every year?  Or are we going to only have the 5 (or 6) road names to choose from for any one particular type of car made? 

 

Sad times for S all....

 

Ben 

Thank You Ukaflyer.  I decided to keep my thoughts to myself.

 

Ed, if I offended you is some way I am sorry, but I need to ask questions that will be answered and can be answered in the few pages I get in the magazine.  For the interviews last year I got 2 pages each for Lionel and MTH.  That is room for 14 questions and answers.  Have you read the artical if not go back and read it as some of the questions you pose were asked in my words.

 

I have written professionally for years and I know the boundries to accomplish my assignments.

 

You are angry with Lionel and my intervew is unlikly to change that. 

"When you do your interview, being armed with what the concerns you have heard, I trust you will use your judgement, look at the body language, and ask the kind of questions that will give you the maximum information that the source is willing to disclose. "

 

  and if they won't answer the questions that folks wanna hear about write the article noting they wouldn't comment.  They seem to forget that we are the customers and it's their job to please us not the other way around..DaveB 

All I can say it is apparent that we, as a group, are not real good at reading and following directions!  Thanks for taking your time to interview them.  If I come up with any questions I will email them to you as requested!

This has become sad, but a little comical to me. The following is just my opinion:

 

-The S scale market is too small to support the numbers Lionel needs at the prices they want.

-They have decided to focus on traditional AF style products because there is a larger market for those products and less development cost I would think.

-The average S customer does not spend as much or as frequently as the average O customer.

-A source inside Lionel told me that the tooling costs for S were basically the same for O so from a business perspective it didn't make sense to invest in S tooling for what they found out was a MUCH smaller market than O.

 

This is exactly the worst case scenario that I was worried about when I started getting into S 4 or 5 years ago. I think we may have seen the last of the newly tooled scale Legacy equipped engines. I doubt there will be much scale rolling stock either.

 

I took a lot of flack for being negative about the future of S, but it turns out that I was justified in my concerns. At least as far as Lionel is concerned.

 

I feel bad for my S friends who were hoping for a lot more from Lionel.

S scale will still survive. 

 

We've learned to enjoy the highs, live with disappointment and deal with the lows.

 

S was never an instant gratification scale, even in the glory days of the late 1990's-early 2000's.  Plus, the scale side was never dependent on Lionel/Flyer for products. 

 

Rusty

 

 

I have wondered the same thing about S gauge and it's popularity or should I say lack of popularity? It is 2 rail and almost a perfect size, big enough to see, feels like you have something substantial when you get a hold of it, yet small enough to have a pretty fair sized layout in a reasonable amount of space. Why isn't it more popular and why is there such a small selection of product compared to just about all other scales?

 

I'm an O gauger, getting back into the hobby about 4 years ago after a very long absence. At that time I considered a few different scales, N & HO were too small for my tired old eyes, O is big enough to see, but also needs a lot of space. Then there was S gauge which I gave a lot of thought to. After seeing all the product available in O and very little n S, I went with O gauge.

 

To be fair, I had O gauge as a kid so I already liked it, I was overwhelmed with the amount of product available (and still am) and the command control and every thing else new in the last 30-40 years so that won me over. But S gauge sure does seem just about like the perfect scale and if the product selection would have been similar to O gauge, I very well might be in S gauge today instead of O.

 

This probably would not be a very valid question that either Lionel or MTH could answer, but then again maybe they do know something? I do wonder about this just about every time I read a post on S gauge.  

 

 

@rtr12:  Here's an approach or maybe a philosophy I've used. Besides O-gauge I also dabble with Marklin HO but only the stuff that is US prototypes. Ok, yes, I've got a couple of German prototype steam engines, but  for the most part, US stuff. Therefore my purchases are limited, which saves me money.  For 2015, Marklin does not have anything new in US railroads - therefore money and space saved. The same thing could apply to S gauge, which I also have a smattering of. The smaller selection again works to this advantage so less money is spent. Like you said, O-gauge can be overwhelming with all the products available. Unless, of course, you've got deep pockets then why worry about it.

Steve

I guess you have a good and valid point that I've never considered. I am not one of the ones with deep pockets, the O gauge catalogs can do serious damage to the train budget. I have actually been hoping for a catalog or two with nothing in them I want, a whole year's worth would be really nice. The O gauge selection is still quite amazing to me, still having trouble adjusting or would that be trying to catch up? Maybe we should just leave S gauge the way it is?

RTR

If we leave S gauge the way it is...it will fade off into the sunset with all the baby-boomers.  It will be gone when they are gone.

Ben

I like more selection as well, the reason I went back to O gauge instead of switching to S. I was just replying to RideTheRails about all the money I could have saved by choosing S over O. However, I do not see why S is not more popular? Makes no sense to me as I tried to describe a couple posts above.

>> I do not see why S is not more popular?

 

I am sure there are many opinions about this.  Here are mine which might or might not be correct:  In the goode olde daze (1945), Lionel was much more popular than American Flyer.  I think the ratio was about 4 to 1, or maybe even more, in favor of Lionel.  My opinion, worth what you paid for it, is that the 3-rail trains simply ran a lot better and more reliably over time.  Every AF boy in the neighborhood had continual trouble keeping things running well.  Size did not matter back then to the typical ten year old.  Running is what counted.  Even the 2-rail O scale trains (with outside 3rd rail) were very popular much earlier before S scale got "invented".  So history and numbers favor the O size above S.

 

Actually, O is a fine size as long as you do not want large sized structures on the layout.  Things like a roundhouse, complete passenger terminal, big industry factories or entire coal mine complexes (complexii?) eat up more space than most anyone has.  A loop of O track with a crossing gate does not require much more real estate than an S loop.  But S layouts can have an assortment of large structures which would be overwhelming on an O layout.  Settling for a loop of track or two and using only small structures is apparently quite acceptable to a lot of O guys.

 

Add to all that the lesser product availability in S and you have a more-or-less complete picture of why S is less popular than the other scales.  Many O folks simply want to run their GG-1 right next to the ATSF war bonnet and they could care less that it never happened in the real world.  They just want variety and lots of it.  S has variety, but not as much as O.

 

Hope this helps explain the mystery of life.

 

Cheers........Ed L. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry...  Couldn't resist...

 

Rusty