Is it too early to start a thread about the 3rd Rail Alco PA's?

The likihood is that it becomes too much of an administrative and logistical nightmare for 3rd Rail to build them that way. It's introducing another element into the equation that I'm sure the factory will not like at all 

c.sam posted:

..........people are asking about the 3 rail couplers with some wanting a Kadee or scale Pilot/coupler included.  Am curious Scott if we could order them with the 2 Rail couplers already installed in lieu of the larger 3 rail one? That could help keep the cost down wouldn't it?

I've ordered my first-ever 3rd Rail product this round with some D&H PA's  Would much prefer that they came with a scale pilot from the get-go.

 

In a response to one of my emails regarding scale coupler pilot on a 3R PA, Scott indicated that it may be possible to purchase a 2 rail pilot with scale coupler.  Either way I may be modifying mine with brass or styrene anyway as I want to add closed coupler doors to my UP A unit.  I imagine now that the E8/E9 project is done we'll get more info on the PAs soon.

As a 2 rail person, I would like to see a mold that includes the pilot in it. There is no break line like in the bottom of the anti climber like in F and E units. It would look really bad to have a break line in 2 rail pilots.

The late E units look fantastic btw!

I'm sure that many of us will be fixing the pilot on our 3 Rail models anyway. Would be great to have them come this way...

Absolutely agree Sam!

Agreed.

They are already advertised as fixed pilot.  

Also agreed the model 2R or 3R would look better as one piece shell with no break-line.  I'll be running an AB set but wouldn't work for those ordering AA or ABA.

Maybe some of us can get 2r shell on 3r PA unit.  Reserved as 2R, 3R Scale, or 3R claw.

Poor Scott. It never ends does it?!

Isn't there a natural break line just above the anti-climber and below the belt rail? If you accept that, then Scott could provide scale and hi-rail pilots, including snow plow and different coupler variants.  Probably be cheaper to stick one of each in every box.  All problems solved, plus somebody could donate a couple scale with anti-climbers to me to replace my sheet brass pilots on the bronze MTH PAs.

MTH was darn near perfect except they put the anti- climber on the body.  I sanded them off before the plastic went to the foundry.

Fixed pilots yes... BUT there is a HUGE difference in the 2R and 3R pilots in order for the big *ss coupler to move side to side. As long as a 2R pilot is available, I'm good. I would prefer it be included in the box and not a separate sale item, but I get the cost/production thing...and by the way, my Atlas pilot included in the box is NOT plastic.

Or, just dump the 3-rail pilot altogether and force those who want it to cut a larger hole in the 2-rail version and attach the front coupler to the truck.

rdunniii posted:

Or, just dump the 3-rail pilot altogether and force those who want it to cut a larger hole in the 2-rail version and attach the front coupler to the truck.

I'm all for that option.

rdunniii posted:

Or, just dump the 3-rail pilot altogether and force those who want it to cut a larger hole in the 2-rail version and attach the front coupler to the truck.

That's an idea.  In todays climate with many more of us coming over to the 'scale side', realistically, how many potential customers for these beautiful 3rd Rail engines are running 063/072 curves or less?  Many layouts today are incorporating a minimum of 072 at least on some of the loops (Is 'loops' OK to say here?)

If you must have a locomotive that can negotiate 031 or similar, Lionel and MTH still make some darned nice models that can easily handle the tighter curves.  Perhaps it's time for some manufacturers to consider 031 operators as the minority and build for the large layouts? If not now, that time is certainly not far off...

bob2 posted:

Isn't there a natural break line just above the anti-climber and below the belt rail? If you accept that, then Scott could provide scale and hi-rail pilots, including snow plow and different coupler variants.  Probably be cheaper to stick one of each in every box.  All problems solved, plus somebody could donate a couple scale with anti-climbers to me to replace my sheet brass pilots on the bronze MTH PAs.

MTH was darn near perfect except they put the anti- climber on the body.  I sanded them off before the plastic went to the foundry.

I don't think so Bob. The side of the pilot is smooth no break line.

Santiago - that is true for some, but definitely not for the D&H.  Some ATSF show the break line from the upper anti-climber rung back to the truck cut out.

This is from close ups in the PA4 book by Anderson & MacDermot.  I have to check my other sources - and where is Andy Romano?  Didn't he do a PA book?

I think (opinion, not based on knowledge) that it would be cheaper to pack all pilot options in each locomotive.  Once the mold is made, an additional 200 small parts probably cost three bucks total.  But handling each special order pilot will be ten bucks each, minimum.

If Santiago's comments ring true for most PA units then we are back to the single molded one piece shell. We'll just need to figure out how to convince them to make the 3rail pieces the same as the 2rail scale coupler version. Fine for anyone running A/B.

Honestly, I think it comes down to how many trailing A's customers want.

I see Bob, thank you for the input. 

I spent a couple minutes in my SP PA book.  The factory actually delivered some without pilots, presumably including a plow in the box (joke).

About half the PAs show a demarcation line.  I bet the factory just put some bondo in the seam for delivery.  Then the unit hit something (that's why they call them cow catchers) and the line appears.

A modeler could do the same thing - but often the paint stripe is just above the line.  Most won't see it.

Not only that, but I wonder - I bet half Scott's PA customers will want huge couplers and swinging pilots.  After all, look which forum this discussion is on - we aren't even close to the 3 Rail Scale forum.

This is academic for me - I have 1% of the total production of CLW cast Alcos, three MTH units converted to metal, and three Overland late-production models.  My sanity may be under question - I love the PA.  I don't need more.

bob2 posted:

Santiago - that is true for some, but definitely not for the D&H.  Some ATSF show the break line from the upper anti-climber rung back to the truck cut out.

This is from close ups in the PA4 book by Anderson & MacDermot.  I have to check my other sources - and where is Andy Romano?  Didn't he do a PA book?

I think (opinion, not based on knowledge) that it would be cheaper to pack all pilot options in each locomotive.  Once the mold is made, an additional 200 small parts probably cost three bucks total.  But handling each special order pilot will be ten bucks each, minimum.

Don't forget, by the time D&H got the PA's, they were well used by the Santa Fe, had been through the shops many times and very likely had many repairs done to the pilots.

Maybe, 3rd Rail should model all the dents in the anti-climber, too...

Rusty

The Weaver BP 20's were done with a moveable pilot that accommodated the truck mounted coupler.  The pilot housing slides left/right independent of the truck/coupler, without the huge slide-slot opening for the claw coupler.

bob2 posted:

.........Not only that, but I wonder - I bet half Scott's PA customers will want huge couplers and swinging pilots.  After all, look which forum this discussion is on - we aren't even close to the 3 Rail Scale forum.....

Agreed this is a more of a 3RS forum conversation.  

However, 3rd Rail targets a different kind of customer than the "swinging pilot" segment.  As C.Sam would tell you, Lionel makes a wonderful Legacy model if that's what people want.

It's worth noting again:

The 3rd Rail reservation page announcement clearly states "FIXED PILOTS".  Since they continuously incorporate what they've learned from previous projects I suspect the models will be along the lines of what we've seen on the most recent E8/E9s.  I think posted examples of the 3 rail T&P pilot will be what we can expect.  If that's the case I would want the same shell or pilot as the 2R model.

At some point Scott will undoubtedly chime in.  At that point, once I know the production plan, I'll know what to do.

Hi Bob and yes, I posted this on the 'regular' forum that seems the most widely read in hopes of garnering the most exposure. Also noticed that the thread about the E8s Arrival is in the same forum.  I'm wondering if we haven't reached the point where more than half of Scott's customers are wanting the 'scale' appointments now?  It's an interesting situation...

I want all the scale appointments and as such have decided to move to 2 rail and I'm thinking I might change my Alco order to 2 rail. I haven't decided yet. I ordered Scale pilots for my E8s and will get them for everything else too but I do wish they were part of the deal

Witz41 yes they all have fixed pilots, but as I stated previously stated there is a huge difference between the 2R and 3R fixed pilots. 

So we have to pay $40 for a 2R pilot and then throw the 3R pilot in the parts bin or trash. Many of us 3R guys no longer want that giant gap in the front of our locomotives. Lionel and MTH already have those versions.

Having 2-railed a pair of Lionel PAs, I can tell you that, for a plastic model, Lionel did a superb job.  Tough to find serious flaws.  I might have saved a photo.

Only 20-30% are 3-rail.  The O Gauge folks already have the really awesome Lionel version or the not so awesome but less expensive MTH version.  IMO the 3-rail folks willing to pay more for the Sunset version are most likely more scale oriented, hence the suggestion.  How many 3-rail folks would scream bloody murder I have no clue.

I enjoy the scale rivets and scale batten strips found in Sunset diesels. Not to mention the absence of high water pants! 

Here is the Lionel PA - most recent addition.  Note the line between pilot and body.  it is that line that shows in half the photos of the real thing.  My opinion of this model is quite high.

The fuzzy is not my fault.  I shall post the photo on another forum so you can see it without the fuzz.  This next shot is my personal PA hangup - noses and windshields.  I only gradually became aware of what the real thing looked like - that graceful taper has been omitted from some famous O Scale models.  All four of these have good tapers.  Only the Lionel is plastic, and it is in the Seacrest collection.

A couple of notes - I put them in the caption, but they did not post.

Left to right: CLW sand cast, Lionel, Overland, MTH in nickel silver.  Best windshield, compared with prototype photos, is Lionel by a wide margin.  Best nose taper - personal opinion - MTH.  Sand Cast is my hobby at the moment, so the CLW is favored here just because it is part of the very first model production of the PA - patterns were commissioned by Alco.  I have nine of them.  The Lionel went to Jim Seacrest.  If Lionel made these things in metal, I would go nuts and own maybe four!

I wish you guys luck.  Hope you get exactly what you want, integral pilot and all.  One thing is for sure - all six axles will be driven - a must for 2-rail.

Mostly opinion.  Do you need a prototype photo of the windshield for comparison?