Is the grade crossing signal relative to speed?

I don't know the answer to your question, but thanks for asking it. I'm looking forward to the replies. I've also wondered if electro-mechanical signals at crossings operate with any consideration given to train speed.

from what i hear, it should be but its not.the bottom line, the horn needs to sounding  as the train enters the grade crossing. i'll let those far more qualified answer in better terms.-jim

Tuscan Jim posted:

I've also wondered if electro-mechanical signals at crossings operate with any consideration given to train speed.

This video gives a (lengthy) explanation, lol:

Right from  MY CN Rule book. 

Rule 14 L  (whistle)

(1)   at whistle posts

(2)  At least 1/4  of a mile from every public crossing grade (except with in the limits of such town or cities as may be described in special instruction) to be prolonged or repeated according to the speed of the train until the crossing is occupied by the engine or cars.

(3) at frequent intervals when view is restricted by weather , curvature or other conditions.

 That's it    some common sense is required , also the bell must be rung,,,,

The Federal rule about this states that the horn must be sounded 15 to 20 seconds prior to reaching the crossing and remain sounding until the locomotive fouls the crossing completely. You have to start blowing a lot farther away from the crossing at 60 mph than you do at 10 mph.

Whistle posts are placed at appropriate distances from the crossing for the speed on the track involved. The same is true for grade crossing circuitry. The approach circuits are much longer on high-speed track than they are on track with lower speed limits.

Everything is set up so that the gates activate in time to protect the crossing 15-20 seconds before the train hits the crossing.

JohnGaltLine posted:

I'm going to start by saying I know almost nothing about real trains so if I use the wrong terms I apologize and would welcome corrections.  

My question is with the grade crossing signal of 2 long, 1 short, 1 long  horn/whistle blasts, does the length of each sound vary with  the speed the train is moving?  Ex, 10 seconds, 10 seconds, 5 seconds, 10 seconds at 30 MPH and 20s, 20s, 10s, 20s at 60 MPH?  

Is there any standardized amount of time that each blast should be, or is more a case of whatever the engineer feels like doing?  

JGL

Rule 14 L Read closely item number 1.

ChessieFan72 posted:

Tuscan Jim posted:

I've also wondered if electro-mechanical signals at crossings operate with any consideration given to train speed.

This video gives a (lengthy) explanation, lol:

 

 

 

 

Really! You actually played the "Attorney" card!

I do know that all the grade crossing signals/gates throughout the Chicago metro commuter zones are definitely controlled by train speed.

On the CN/GTW tracks in Michigan there are W signs located where the air horn or Air Chimes on the Locomotives are supposed to be activated.

Andrew

OGR Webmaster posted:

The Federal rule about this states that the horn must be sounded 15 to 20 seconds prior to reaching the crossing and remain sounding until the locomotive fouls the crossing completely. You have to start blowing a lot farther away from the crossing at 60 mph than you do at 10 mph.

 

Further away, yes, but from what I'm getting from the rules that have been posted, the actual amount of time the whistle is blowing stays the same regardless of the speed the train is traveling, starting between 15 and 20 seconds before entering the crossing and ending only once you are fully occupying the crossing.  Does this sound right?  Is there any particular rule on how long each blast must be, or is it basically about 5 seconds, 5 seconds, 2 seconds, 5 seconds, making the total right around 20 seconds with the off time?  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted

 Is there any particular rule on how long each blast must be,... 

JGL

No.

Big Jim posted: 

Really! You actually played the "Attorney" card!

It was better than the 2 of hearts and 7 of clubs in my poker hand...

It was the only video I could find (that I had also watched) that explained the process.

The Feds require a minimum of 20 seconds for speeds of 20 mph or greater item 16 the length of operation is covered in item 5:

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/xin...ser/07010/sec04b.htm

The way I read the rules, the engineer could lay on the horn solid for 20 seconds if he wanted to.

There's some "style" involved too, right? An engineer could develop his own unique pattern of "toots."

Matt Kirsch posted:

The way I read the rules, the engineer could lay on the horn solid for 20 seconds if he wanted to.

There's some "style" involved too, right? An engineer could develop his own unique pattern of "toots."

Now with the modern "push button" electrically actuated air horns, it's pretty much two longs, one short, and one longer to be continued complete through the crossing. Pretty hard to make a "unique patter" and still comply with the rules, remembering that all the "whistle/bell functions" are being recorded on the event recorder. 

JohnGaltLine posted:

...the actual amount of time the whistle is blowing stays the same regardless of the speed the train is traveling, starting between 15 and 20 seconds before entering the crossing and ending only once you are fully occupying the crossing.  Does this sound right?

That is exactly right.

__________________________________________________________

Matt Kirsch posted:

The way I read the rules, the engineer could lay on the horn solid for 20 seconds if he wanted to.

There's some "style" involved too, right? An engineer could develop his own unique pattern of "toots."

There is no freelancing allowed here. The rule specifies 2 longs, a short and a final long that carries through the crossing.

What about when its 2am and the engineer lays on the horn the whole way through town?

Thanks, Rich.  

Would it then be prototypical for that last long blast to be a little longer than the first two?  I suppose it would depend how experienced the engineer is in knowing how long it will take to move through a crossing?

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

Thanks, Rich.  

Would it then be prototypical for that last long blast to be a little longer than the first two?

THAT, sir is the whole ide of that last, i.e. LONG. It must be carried through the entire crossing, by rule.

 I suppose it would depend how experienced the engineer is in knowing how long it will take to move through a crossing?

Pretty much, plus based on where the whistle post/board is placed and train speed. 

JGL

RickO posted:

What about when its 2am and the engineer lays on the horn the whole way through town?

Then the engineer is someone who knows RickO lives within hearing distance and he is messin' with him! 

At one time you could tell different engineman by the way they blew the horn. Not always but quite a few,    I guess with the push button horn it's  all or nothing.  .

Federal regulations -- and, thus, railroad operating rules -- do not change in response to the time of day (or night), whether anyone is awake or asleep, whether there are or are not any highway vehicles approaching the crossing, or any other conditions.  "Light whistling" is not provided for, and is a violation of railroad operating rules and federal regulations.

Even though it may seem harmless, and even courteous, it should never be done.  There is an army of plaintiff attorneys hungry to win big on a grade crossing case.  They all have "investigators".  I have testified for the railroad in crossing death lawsuits where the attorney's investigator videotaped trains "light whistling" at that crossing.  It had nothing to do with the subject of the lawsuit, but it did prove that the railroad was not always in compliance with requirements at that location.  Juries are usually inclined to identify with the plaintiff when shown evidence like this.

Before the enactment of the federal regulation (around the year 2000), state laws and railroad operating rules governing road crossing bell and whistle warnings were quite adequate, and allowed a certain amount of discretion for the Engineer to use at night and when moving slowly.  As is normal, though, when the congress, advised by the Federal Railroad Administration and National Transportation Safety Board, makes rules on how trains should be operated, what was simple has become more complicated and burdensome.

ADDENDUM, Monday, January 11:  I just looked at this thread again, and, from what I wrote here, you can see that the subject is one of my "hot buttons" .  I had to laugh at myself for sounding so parental.  Kindly accept my apology for the somewhat stiff-necked and stern tone of this posting.

Wow.  Very impressed by the information that can had just by asking.  Guess I better press my luck and ask some more, just because the discussion here has me interested well beyond my original purposes.  

How far back does the 2l 1s 1l signal go back?  is it something from the very first days of railroads, or was it not introduced until automobile roads were plentiful, or what?  

Second, is this signal used in switching yards or other places out of public access?  

JGL

I another recent thread, someone posted a court document from the Nebraska boy killed by a UP train case: UP crossing liability court case.

I skimmed through this and it appears to me they are basing the case on the UP train blowing the horn for 12 seconds instead of 15 seconds. They admit the young boy bypassed the safety gates and signals, but they seem to be trying to determine who was the most negligent (or more than 50% negligent or something like that?), the boy or the railroad. 

The legal document made my head spin, so many words to say so little. Guess you have to be a lawyer to completely understand it all. Seemed like a 'no brainer' to me as to who was in the wrong, horn or no horn, but I guess rules are rules too? Who knows anymore?

It is a very sad story and a horrible thing that the young boy had to learn about train crossings with his life. I feel bad about the boy and his family, but I just don't see how the railroad can be held responsible. I seriously doubt 3 more seconds of horn would have made a bit of difference?

JohnGaltLine posted:

. . . is this signal used in switching yards or other places out of public access?  

JGL

 

Nope.  It's the whistle signal used approaching crossings and tunnels, and that's all.

There was an alternative whistle signal to be used when approaching road crossings, blind curves, and tunnels when running against the current of traffic on Double Track: one very long followed by one short.  The reason for this was that employees working on or near the track would expect an approaching train to be running with the current of traffic (normally the right-hand track) and therefore would benefit from knowing that the train was not on the normal track for trains approaching from that direction.

It disappeared, though, when politicians enacted regulations governing trains approaching road crossings.

Number 90 posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

. . . is this signal used in switching yards or other places out of public access?  

 

Nope.  It's the whistle signal used approaching crossings and tunnels, and that's all.

 

What I mean is, is the grade crossing signal used when crossing service roads and the like in a yard, or such, where there is no public access?

JohnGaltLine posted:

Number 90 posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

. . . is this signal used in switching yards or other places out of public access?  

 

Nope.  It's the whistle signal used approaching crossings and tunnels, and that's all.

 

What I mean is, is the grade crossing signal used when crossing service roads and the like in a yard, or such, where there is no public access?

Generally no. The bell is usually sounded however.

I find this to be a very helpful topic for guys like me who need help with the real train procedures. I taught Drivers Education for about 36 years and still help out, but getting to old to be going through red lights. lol

Each class I held, CSX was very aggressive in helping Drivers Education Instructors. They would send out a gust speaker, and he had a well organized 45 minute lesson. The program is called: Operation Lifesaver.  I only do road now, but I will have to ask if they are still doing this.

I saw my first "whistling crossbuck" in Lubbock, TX (avenue P near Canyon Jct).  A device like that takes light whistling or human error out of the picture as long as it is maintained and functioning.