Is the rumor of the DCS handheld discontinuance substantiated?

Seems some of the parts are no longer available and apparently they can't find suitable replacements.

Yes, they are talking about the full function DCS handheld remote. Yes, MTH has confirmed this. I think the current batch they have produced will be the last one after that it's the app. 

I believe the set remotes (DCS Remote Commanders) have already been replaced by the DCS explorer and free app.

I asked Mike Wolf about the remote when I saw him at York in October.  He said that this will indeed be the last run of the hand held remote.  MTH bought up all available pieces of obsolete parts and will have another part that can no longer be obtained redesigned (he told me which one, but I don’t recall).  They will make several hundred remotes, but that’s it.

End of the DCS Hand Controller

To add to RTR12's comments, above, it has been stated by MTH, but they also stated the last production run should last a long time, whatever that it.

More importantly, we should all get use to the idea that at some point, we will probably be forced to move our train control to our phones. While I do like feel of a dedicated remote, there is just no way the manufactures can compete with the phone manufactures in terms of hardware. So, I do see a time when we move to the phone as our remote.

There is absolutely no reason to do it now because, there seems to be plenty of new stock, but sometime in the future we will be forced to make the move.

Charlie

rtr12 posted:

 

I believe the set remotes (DCS Remote Commanders) have already been replaced by the DCS explorer and free app.

Uh oh. If that is the case I'll have to buy several spares. The PER is a [mostly] switching pike and there is no way I could use a phone or tablet because my eyes have to be on the train so without tactile buttons I can't look at a silly screen to see where I need to poke. Then finally I will have to give up on DCS and perhaps MTH engines as well. Those business decisions are gonna' push more than a few people away from DCS and PS3 engines.

Charlie posted:

More importantly, we should all get use to the idea that at some point, we will probably be forced to move our train control to our phones. While I do like feel of a dedicated remote, there is just no way the manufactures can compete with the phone manufactures in terms of hardware. So, I do see a time when we move to the phone as our remote.

I don't buy that we have to use our phone to control the trains.  Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote.  Not everything is suited for running on a phone.  By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!

Lew, If you are using the DCS Remote Commanders (50-1033), I believe you can still get those as a separate purchase. And as said above MTH is supposed to have a good supply of the full DCS remotes from this last production run. Not sure how many is in that good supply?

Above, I was talking about the MTH starter sets, which I now only see offered with the DCS Explorer in the last catalog. The DCS Remote Commander is still listed in the latest 2020-V1 catalog, just isn't included with the starter sets anymore that I could see anyway.

And I certainly agree and also prefer the hand held remotes. I have the DCS WIU and Deluxe App, but still prefer and always use the DCS handheld remote. I'll also be one of the unhappy campers if my DCS handheld ever quits and there is nothing but the app left to use. 

GRJ, I would sure be willing to cough up a little extra for a DCS remote if they would continue to offer them. 

Thanks folks. OK. I’ll count on MTH improving app connectivity. But... The phone app doesn’t control Ztrack.  What other functions will be lost? I just joined a club that does TMCC/Legacy and DCS. The TMCC guys seem... happier? As much as I love MTH quality, this isn’t the best news. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Charlie posted:

More importantly, we should all get use to the idea that at some point, we will probably be forced to move our train control to our phones. While I do like feel of a dedicated remote, there is just no way the manufactures can compete with the phone manufactures in terms of hardware. So, I do see a time when we move to the phone as our remote.

I don't buy that we have to use our phone to control the trains.  Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote.  Not everything is suited for running on a phone.  By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!

You know what they say John.  Where there’s a Will, there’s an Ale!

Better check Barry's Book as I think ZTracks are controlled by the  Top tier of the App

CurtisH posted:

Better check Barry's Book as I think ZTracks are controlled by the  Top tier of the App

I did check. On page 232 Barry specifically spelled out that the app doesn’t support Z4K. And what it might take. Short story is that is looks like Z4K will go away. 

I think someone quoted a MTH spokesman at the Spring York during a discussion about the announcement of handhelds being discontinued, and the grumbling that ensued, saying something along the lines of "Just stop griping and get used to it."     Not the most accomodating response.  

I love progress. Thank God. Living in the past is just that. 

If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote.  Not everything is suited for running on a phone.  By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!

Some guys don't want to pay for a $5 bottle of smoke fluid and you think they'll pay more for a remote?  LOL!  Good one John.

Jason gartner posted:

If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it

Screens are visual, not tactile. As such when starting/stopping one must have one's eyes on the screen rather than on the train. Slow-speed switching moves at 5smph concluding with coupling to a standing car would be awkward-to-impossible using such a control scheme. An operating session on the PER involves 40-50 such moves. IMO there is something wrong with a business model that offers excellent slow-speed walk-around control and then makes operating the walk-around the task rather than operating the train, the opposite of transparent control. When screens become the only way to implement DCS MTH will start losing those of us who do a lot of switching. Of course, PS3 engines have DCC receivers so that is a possible solution but is another whole kettle-of-fish.

Jason gartner posted:

If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it

What Lew said.

It's the same reason iPad-like displays are a poor choice for controls in an automobile (though with less serious consequences of course).  In the case of autos, they are here to stay for good, most likely  (unless it's proved they cause a significant number of traffic deaths that could be avoided if controls were buttons/levers/knobs).

Of course there is no such life risk for our trains, so nothing will change this course if
MTH is not interested in investing in another piece of hardware.

"Alexa, back up the Norfolk Southern S2 switcher at 3 scale miles per hour.  Alexa Stop!" (you have to talk fast and it needs to catch your voice(proces and send commands) really fast since Alexa can't really cant see or "feel" the couplers close like you can see it)

Hope it doesn't come to that, but that's more likely than them investing in a new remote, it would seem.

In the mean time, I will probably keep buying another backup remote from time to time as long as they are still available.

-Dave

Has anyone ran into the problem of not being able to bring inactive engines to the active list? This querk was first noticed in 2015 by @Mrmacher. I purchased my app(premier version) January 8st 2020 and have this same problem five years later! @dave(the train store man) mentions this also in this post. Barry(at the time) said he had no clue! HELP

breezinup posted:

I think someone quoted a MTH spokesman at the Spring York during a discussion about the announcement of handhelds being discontinued, and the grumbling that ensued, saying something along the lines of "Just stop griping and get used to it."       

I wonder if Mike w. will get use to it when we stop buying his trains..

Jason gartner posted:

If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it

Simply put. Now I have to think about the Wi-Fi in my house. Did it drop out. Did my phone attach to a different connection point. My friend has to load an app, or I need to buy multiple “handhelds” in the form of phone like devices anyway. Did the DCS system boot up in the proper order, that I can come home and run. I feel like an apologist here. (I love my mth stuff), but I’m hoping they have a rock solid solution on tap. Because waaahhhhh! I want to play with my toys. 

I tried the app on my phone, that didn't work well for me.  tried it on a i pad mini, and that didn't work out. So I sold my wifi and bought another remote.

I have an operational walk around layout, I spot cars at industries, build train consist's in the yard, and have to watch the road trains constantly, on my single track 300 foot main line. I have to watch the train not the remote. Usually when operating, the remote is in one hand held near my  hip, the other hand is uncoupling the cars or throwing   switches, as I walk around following the train, in sometimes a to narrow isle. 

I think the app is good for those of you that like to watch the train run around while you sit down and enjoy a beverage with good company. Which like to do sometimes.

For me a touch screen just doesn't cut it.

Folks - I posted this in the other thread on yhis topic, but since Fedex doesn’t have my package, my workday is shorter and I can think more about trains :-)

Since we are talking about toys, let me frame my example in the context of toys. Please stay with me past the next sentence. Let’s compare trains to video games that aren’t resident on a handheld device (it works. your trains aren’t on your handheld). 
In a video game you stare at the screen. Finger poised over a tactile button. Your eye sees THE GAME. Your finger is just a tool. It’s the same with model trains. You (I assume) want to enjoy what the train is doing. Your thumb is on the thumb wheel or hovered over the horn, or or or. You enjoy the train. Your thumb is a tool. In either situation, if you have to stare at the controller to do the thing, you miss the thing. Plain and simple. This isn’t a change from touching a throttle to being overwhelmed by 30 buttons. It’s the change from enjoying the train to being sucked into the screen. 

Jason gartner posted:

If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it

If you have to ask that question, there's little to be gained by trying to answer it.

It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.

Jason gartner posted:

It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.

Jason

now you’ve hunkered down into a position. No one is saying the app doesn’t have a place. I’m 53. My video game example comes from my own life playing Nintendo golf. It’s reinforced by my adult children, one of which is a computer engineer. Sure there is stuff you can do with the app. But if you want to enjoy that burst of train smoke, wouldn’t you rather watch the train? 

While I tend to side with the "remote" folks, there is still quite a bit of looking at the remote to access some of the more obscure features.  Sure you can throttle, sound the whistle/bell, and a few other functions but beyond that you are looking at a keypad or other button to make something happen.  The remote though to me is still the best way for me.  I know there are folks that can make that smart device sing when running trains and most of them are younger than me.  LOL!

No doubt you have to look at the remote for some seldom used features, but my fingers can easily find the thumbwheel and the commonly used functions without looking at the remote.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

No doubt you have to look at the remote for some seldom used features, but my fingers can easily find the thumbwheel and the commonly used functions without looking at the remote.

I thought I said that.  LOL!

All this talking about the remote, which I have four and love, vs the the app, which I have the premier app, and love for some things (setting up routes is way easier in the app) makes me appreciate MTH even more. Have you ever used a legacy remote from Lionel? Definitely not the easiest way to run a train and enjoy it! Just saying.

MartyE posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

No doubt you have to look at the remote for some seldom used features, but my fingers can easily find the thumbwheel and the commonly used functions without looking at the remote.

I thought I said that.  LOL!

You Did! LOL!

CurtisH posted:

Have you ever used a legacy remote from Lionel? Definitely not the easiest way to run a train and enjoy it! Just saying.

All the time.  I guess its what you are used to.

I love computers and my cell phone and my Alexa. But for some reason, my WIFI/DCS doesn't work on my club layout. (The app does work for other members.) So without a remote, I can't run my engines. I have the same problem with my Lionchief app. So I strongly believe there is a roll for the specialized remote.

Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? WiFi and the app open up different possibilities for interaction. 

First, MTH could (and should) add an API to there app that would allow a user to attach a PS4 style gaming controller to a phone or tablet and add the tactile button to the app. This would be similar to the Nintendo switch style experience. Use the built in screen when needed and look at the big picture when needed. For demonstration purposes I already use a Bluetooth mouse attached to my Droid device so that I can operate the app without my fingers being in view over the screen.

WiFi also doesn't mean that MTH can't or won't develop a new dedicated remote to operate with the WIU. Dedicated hardware to operate over WiFi can be built and implemented into a newer DCS style remote if they so choose. WiFi (much like Bluetooth and 900MHz radio used in the DCS remote) is just a carrier of the data for the device whether that be a dedicated remote, or an app running on a smart device.

H1000 posted:

Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? ..................

 Mike Wolf himself stated (TCA Museum York week a few years ago) that once it's not possible to make the current remote due to parts obsolescence, he was not planning on creating a new design for one to replace it.  He pointed to a phone and said he could not justify the expense to develop new hardware when such a capable alternative that most (not all) people already have available to them (much cheaper to develop and upgrade software than hardware).

There was a lot of feedback then, as there continues to be.

The more recent announcement of a new "final run" of the current remote that did include a minor redesign to address a part that was no longer available was after the initial announcement and reaction.

Unless there has been enough backlash to change that path, the remotes will be no more once they are gone.

But I maintain, no one should rush out to buy them up, leaves more for me to create my collection of spares.

-Dave

Even if you prefer using phone control, all kinds of issues and inconveniences can arise if you're restricted to a cell phone. I use my iPhone for a lot of things, and sometimes I want to leave it set on a certain site. And sometimes I let my wife use it if she has misplaced hers (or she may even take it with her in a pinch), or if her phone has gone dead (happens a lot ).  Even things happen like this past weekend, when my phone got hijacked so my wife could use it to show friends a bunch of grandkid movies I'd made. All sorts of things can get in the way of train operations.

When any of these things happen, train operations come to a screeching halt, or can't get started, without a handheld. And of course you can't use your phone for other things if it's tied up running trains, which is a big negative to me. Even Batman knows that sometimes you need to have backup. 

H1000 posted:

Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? 

Mike Wolf at October York...

Dave45681 posted:

H1000 posted:

Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? ..................

 Mike Wolf himself stated (TCA Museum York week a few years ago) that once it's not possible to make the current remote due to parts obsolescence, he was not planning on creating a new design for one to replace it.  He pointed to a phone and said he could not justify the expense to develop new hardware when such a capable alternative that most (not all) people already have available to them (much cheaper to develop and upgrade software than hardware).

There was a lot of feedback then, as there continues to be.

The more recent announcement of a new "final run" of the current remote that did include a minor redesign to address a part that was no longer available was after the initial announcement and reaction.

Unless there has been enough backlash to change that path, the remotes will be no more once they are gone.

But I maintain, no one should rush out to buy them up, leaves more for me to create my collection of spares.

-Dave

You must not have read anything after the first line.  The app could be turned into your new remote with tactile buttons.  Back before the WIU was even a rumor, everyone thought that MTH should redesign the the DCS Remote to include new features such as the CAB2 did.  There was talk of a a larger screen with color and then eventually it should have a touch interface... all the things found in a modern smart phone of the time. 

MTH doesn't need to design new hardware to make a new DCS remote.  They simply need to include some additional code in the current app that allows the end user to use any of the 1000's add-on gaming controllers available and already being used.  Heck, MTH could even contract with one of those gaming pad developers and brand the hardware via a third party for much less cost than ever redesigning the remote.

Think outside of the box a little, the app could do more if MTH would just unleash chains on it a bit more.

H1000 posted:

Dave45681 posted:

H1000 posted:

Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? ..................

 Mike Wolf himself stated (TCA Museum York week a few years ago) that once it's not possible to make the current remote due to parts obsolescence, he was not planning on creating a new design for one to replace it.  He pointed to a phone and said he could not justify the expense to develop new hardware when such a capable alternative that most (not all) people already have available to them (much cheaper to develop and upgrade software than hardware).

There was a lot of feedback then, as there continues to be.

The more recent announcement of a new "final run" of the current remote that did include a minor redesign to address a part that was no longer available was after the initial announcement and reaction.

Unless there has been enough backlash to change that path, the remotes will be no more once they are gone.

But I maintain, no one should rush out to buy them up, leaves more for me to create my collection of spares.

-Dave

You must not have read anything after the first line.  The app could be turned into your new remote with tactile buttons.  Back before the WIU was even a rumor, everyone thought that MTH should redesign the the DCS Remote to include new features such as the CAB2 did.  There was talk of a a larger screen with color and then eventually it should have a touch interface... all the things found in a modern smart phone of the time. 

MTH doesn't need to design new hardware to make a new DCS remote.  They simply need to include some additional code in the current app that allows the end user to use any of the 1000's add-on gaming controllers available and already being used.  Heck, MTH could even contract with one of those gaming pad developers and brand the hardware via a third party for much less cost than ever redesigning the remote.

Think outside of the box a little, the app could do more if MTH would just unleash chains on it a bit more.

 

Nope, I read the whole thing, thanks.  But thanks for the condescending attitude!

Hopefully you are right and the controller people want to diverge into supporting model train systems as well.

They sell millions of video games, huge opportunity for return on investment.  No so much for any effort expounded in the realm of model trains.

-Dave

Jason gartner posted:

It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.

I well remember '95-'96 when TMCC came out.  My memory is completely contrary to "everyone complaining".  Hook up one wire, Run the TMCC loc.  No problem.

Now, DCS did bring on "complaining" as it was more complicated (wiring, remote) ... but that was 5-6 years later than the introduction of TMCC.