Is the rumor of the DCS handheld discontinuance substantiated?

Dave45681 posted:

Hopefully you are right and the controller people want to diverge into supporting model train systems as well.

They sell millions of video games, huge opportunity for return on investment.  No so much for any effort expounded in the realm of model trains.

-Dave

The controller people don't need to diverge into support model train systems. MTH needs to tell their app developer to include an API (application programming interface) to allow the use of external controllers within their app. The API won't cost much if anything to include and boom all of those gaming controllers can now be used with the app and the buttons on those controllers can be mapped to your liking. now you have a fully customizable DCS remote vs the one size fits all we had before.

I tried the wifi with my phone and a tablet.  It works fine, but I am like others who like the feel of real buttons, especially when trying to watch the train.  I just ordered a second remote through my LHS CT McCormick Hardware in Zelienople, PA under this new part number.  How long will they make them?  Who knows??

https://mthtrains.com/50-1038

It is DCS Remote Control Handheld (Version 6.10) 

• New internal components caused MTH to give this item a new product number
• Replaces 50-1002

Mark, I stock piled a number of them finding and buying them when the price was right. I am not keen on using my phone to control the trains plus I am a dinosaur when it comes to tech stuff.  I like the hand held remotes..................Paul 2

Interesting thread. I personally think the phone or pad is a two hand affair and you have to look at it to see where to put your finger, etc. Don't disagree...there is no tactile feedback on a phone or pad. I like to watch the train and the layout...that's why I'm doing this anyway, and I run the remote with one hand for the most part.

I wonder when all the tv, cable, and dish companies will abandon the remote. It seems to me it would be a lot easier to transition for them than the interactive running of a model train. Especially when there are 5 of us running 5 engines on a 12 by 14 layout with switches changing and timing when to slow, let a train go thru a switch, and then run past the block it was on. Getting really close is more fun, but I think there might be a little too much latency with a phone.

MartyE posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote.  Not everything is suited for running on a phone.  By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!

Some guys don't want to pay for a $5 bottle of smoke fluid and you think they'll pay more for a remote?  LOL!  Good one John.

The same guys spend $1500 on an engine. It's not about the cost with smoke fluid, it's about the thrill of the hunt for the cheapest no shipping find.

H1000 posted:

Dave45681 posted:

Hopefully you are right and the controller people want to diverge into supporting model train systems as well.

They sell millions of video games, huge opportunity for return on investment.  No so much for any effort expounded in the realm of model trains.

-Dave

The controller people don't need to diverge into support model train systems. MTH needs to tell their app developer to include an API (application programming interface) to allow the use of external controllers within their app. The API won't cost much if anything to include and boom all of those gaming controllers can now be used with the app and the buttons on those controllers can be mapped to your liking. now you have a fully customizable DCS remote vs the one size fits all we had before.

Oh! DING!DING!DING! We have winner!  

Really. Quick, cheap, simple, using repurposed readily available (did I say cheap!) hardware.

The 2020 MTH Volume 1 catalog announced on p. 9 the release of an upgraded handheld #50-1038. It will be available this month at a ton of dealers. Looks like the demise of the handheld is not occurring anytime soon.

Pat

If you watch the Oct 2019 MTH presentation at the TCA Open House (it’s on you tube) and listen to the Notch 6 podcast for the MTH catolag 2020 Vol 1(48 min in), it seems that they have found a replacement processor chip and will continue to produce the remote. It it’s also stated that there is a new product number for it.

Or am I misunderstanding?

Mark W.

https://mthtrains.com/50-1038

It is DCS Remote Control Handheld (Version 6.10) 

• New internal components caused MTH to give this item a new product number
• Replaces 50-1002

I agree with Marty above.  Running trains requires keeping an eye on trains, not watching a game screen.

As I noted in another thread,it would be interesting to see how many advocates of the wifi have complex operations on a layout, involving many locos running simultaneously on intersecting routes. 

For those of you that know me, I tend to vote with my wallet. On the issue of the DCS remote:

• I already bought a spare (TIU and remote), and....
• I purchased a refurbished iPad and...
• I upgraded my DCS WiFI APP and...
• Now have a WIU up and running on my layout

REGARDLESS of the business decision MTH may or may not make, I WILL keep trains running on my layout. FWIW, I also have a TMCC remote AND the cable connecting the TMCC command base to my TIU. I have options.

If you have the slightest concern, act now while there are still options. Wait, and you get zero sympathy from Gilly.

I have laid in a supply of DCS remotes.   

Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes.  The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise) between the controller and the locomotive/car as in Bluerail or the various Lionchief/Flyerchief products.  In other words, will any system that requires an intermediate "relay" (such as the TIU or Legacy/TMCC base that put some kind of signal into the track based on input from the remote) become obsolete?  

PGentieu posted:

Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes.  The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise) 

The latest batch of Lionel Legacy engines run Bluetooth with a free app. IMHO, Lionel has taken a giant step in the correct direction.  Hopefully, there is nothing patent-able about this.

Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time

Jason gartner posted:

It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.

No Jason.  The fact is you are not comprehending the fact that many of us run our trains differently from you.   For us, a flat screen device without tactile controls is impractical to use and would lead to mishaps.  You have a free invite to come to a NJ Hirailers open house as my guest and I will be glad to demonstrate this to you in person.   My email is in my profile. There are tasks I perform when running trains for which I cannot stop to look at a screen to complete the operation realistically - I need to be able to operate a remote without looking.  Many others are in the same boat. 

-Greg

Jason gartner posted:

Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time

That is not an accurate statement.  You can operate more than one engine at a time via Bluetooth - and yes, I assume you mean with only one controller.

-Greg

Jason, but will it run more than one engine at a time?

Greg H:  You are absolutely correct!

I’ve sold hundreds of dcs systems to customers when my uncle owned his train store, then the WiFi unit. Problem is the new people coming into this hobby choose the app. My kids are 5 and 3 run multiple trains on a 10x30 ft layout, they rather run the app! Not saying it’s the best but after using the app vs remote, the remote is better for making things happen faster maybe while you hsve your nose touching the train but the app is faster for whistle steam, switches, and playback etc or moving from train to train, I have pods on all sides of my layout to hold iPads. 

Bluetooth is crap, on the app is terrible only one engine. At time . Doesn’t work very far away. 

Jason gartner posted:

I’ve sold hundreds of dcs systems to customers when my uncle owned his train store, then the WiFi unit. Problem is the new people coming into this hobby choose the app. My kids are 5 and 3 run multiple trains on a 10x30 ft layout, they rather run the app! Not saying it’s the best but after using the app vs remote, the remote is better for making things happen faster maybe while you hsve your nose touching the train but the app is faster for whistle steam, switches, and playback etc or moving from train to train, I have pods on all sides of my layout to hold iPads. 

Jason,

where’s your store? I’d definitely stop in if my travels take me nearby. Why can’t both the app and the handheld exist? Has the demand for the handheld died, or is it truly a parts issue? If it’s parts, then make a handheld using today’s parts. The hardware that much more complicated than a tv remote. We don’t need a wheel (it’s the weakest point anyway). The channel up down buttons could do that function. 

My family owned train depot in mt airy md. Sold 2 years ago. My dad still works there helping repairs. Not what it used to be but new owners are trying, I think both remote and app should exsist. 

Gilly@N&W posted:

PGentieu posted:

Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes.  The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise) 

The latest batch of Lionel Legacy engines run Bluetooth with a free app. IMHO, Lionel has taken a giant step in the correct direction.  Hopefully, there is nothing patent-able about this.

Wait till you lose the Bluetooth signal on your layout. NOT a nice adventure!

From following this thread (and the OGR forum), there still seems to be a fair demand for the handheld. I'm one that prefers the handheld remote. While many folks do like the apps and wifi, there are some of us that still prefer the remote.

Now here's something else, they are still making transformers with handles! Reason being, some folks still prefer conventional operation. 

There is no reason these options for train control (as well as any new ones) can't all exist at the same time. Then we can all be happy running our trains just the way we enjoy running them. 

Excellent observations RTR12!!!  I'm not against any form of control; it would be great if every method we have mentioned here continues to be economically feasible to continue!

According to one of the MTH officers the DCS hand held remote control will be discontinued. The current design requires a "firmware" upgrade that he said would cost upwards of $100,000.  So, this is the reason given to me for discontinuing the hand held remote. In the mean time MTH has cobbled together enough remaining parts for a few more remote units. These will have a different Sku number from the original remote. Once these are exhausted there will be no more. Running trains with a phone or ipad is apparently what MTH wants us to do. For myself, I run conventionally because the transformer handles of the Z-4000 transformers remind me of the Lionel ZW days. I also enjoy using the Z-4000 remote for enabling a walk around throttle without the full capacity of the soon to be unavailable DCS remote. 

You can buy a lot of firmware help for a hundred grand!  I think they're overstating the case a bit!  However, since we aren't privy to the details of the design, it's a moot point. 

I’ll be picking up a new remote when they come out.  I have the APP and I don’t use it, my son doesn’t like it, just so many anomalies using it.

turbgine posted:

According to one of the MTH officers the DCS hand held remote control will be discontinued. The current design requires a "firmware" upgrade that he said would cost upwards of $100,000.  So, this is the reason given to me for discontinuing the hand held remote. In the mean time MTH has cobbled together enough remaining parts for a few more remote units. These will have a different Sku number from the original remote. Once these are exhausted there will be no more. Running trains with a phone or ipad is apparently what MTH wants us to do. For myself, I run conventionally because the transformer handles of the Z-4000 transformers remind me of the Lionel ZW days. I also enjoy using the Z-4000 remote for enabling a walk around throttle without the full capacity of the soon to be unavailable DCS remote. 

Sounds like there is a time warp here. MTH is NOT discontinuing the DCS handheld. To the contrary, as noted in several earlier posts, MTH is continuing to manufacture the DCS handheld. Indeed, they are offering an upgraded version in their new catalogue, # 50-1038, that has been ordered by a huge number of dealers. 

Pat

irish rifle posted:

Sounds like there is a time warp here. MTH is NOT discontinuing the DCS handheld. To the contrary, as noted in several earlier posts, MTH is continuing to manufacture the DCS handheld. Indeed, they are offering an upgraded version in their new catalogue, # 50-1038, that has been ordered by a huge number of dealers. 

Pat

Sounds like you're not paying attention!  MTH has stated they are making a FINAL limited run of the remote and there will be no more!  How is that not discontinuing the remote?  Did you actually read any of the discussions on the remote?

turbgine posted:

According to one of the MTH officers the DCS hand held remote control will be discontinued. The current design requires a "firmware" upgrade that he said would cost upwards of $100,000.  So, this is the reason given to me for discontinuing the hand held remote. In the mean time MTH has cobbled together enough remaining parts for a few more remote units. These will have a different Sku number from the original remote. Once these are exhausted there will be no more. Running trains with a phone or ipad is apparently what MTH wants us to do. For myself, I run conventionally because the transformer handles of the Z-4000 transformers remind me of the Lionel ZW days. I also enjoy using the Z-4000 remote for enabling a walk around throttle without the full capacity of the soon to be unavailable DCS remote. 

I hope that doesn’t read like “We’re actually not big enough to compete in the train control arena” Atlas, WBB, RMT and anyone else left doesn’t.  If redoing the handheld is too expensive, I doubt they have the money to compete as Bluetooth and Wi-Fi evolve. It remains to be seen, I suppose. Meanwhile, I’ll play with what I have. My next engine will be my first Lionel with Legacy and/or Bluetooth. I’ll see how it goes. 

WOW! I just googled the new remote and got hits for the other forum threads on this topic. Hope MTH is reading. If I sit back and think before I type, I wonder if we aren’t caught up in the same forces that made just about every 5 to 15 year old “computerized” anything obsolete, or at best “no longer supported”. That’s a tad frustrating as I try to budget for more locomotives. 

CurtisH posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

PGentieu posted:

Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes.  The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise) 

The latest batch of Lionel Legacy engines run Bluetooth with a free app. IMHO, Lionel has taken a giant step in the correct direction.  Hopefully, there is nothing patent-able about this.

Wait till you lose the Bluetooth signal on your layout. NOT a nice adventure!

Has this happened to you?  What was the equipment?  What was the result???

Jason gartner posted:

Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time

I've experiencing short range with the BT, with the Universal Remote or my phone, I can't get more than around 20 feet from either of my Legacy BT equipped locomotives before they lose the connection.  I am not impressed so far, and I'm glad that Lionel has the good sense to continue making their high-end command remote.  They even make two versions of remotes so you have a choice!

Yes, with Lionel, I can use the Universal remote or my phone as well.

I don't want to be too picky, but reducing the choices down to one, the phone app, doesn't seem the right way to go!

Greg Houser posted:

Jason gartner posted:

Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time

That is not an accurate statement.  You can operate more than one engine at a time via Bluetooth - and yes, I assume you mean with only one controller.

-Greg

RJR posted:

Jason, but will it run more than one engine at a time?

Greg H:  You are absolutely correct!

There is a new bluetooth standard, (LE) on the horizon that might provide new opportunities in our hobby.

Bluetooth LE Audio is coming later in 2020, and it will radically expand what’s possible when using compatible devices like smartphones, wireless headphones, and even hearing aids. Introduced today at Consumer Electronics Show 2020 by the Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG), the new Bluetooth specification includes the ability to share audio wirelessly from a single smartphone to many Bluetooth headphones. It also includes a new standard audio codec known as LC3 that the group claims will sound better and use less power than the previous standard, called SBC.

More info at Digital Trends - Next Version of BlueTooth LE

Bluetooth LE, the LE stands for Low Energy.  That also suggests short range.  In point of fact, Bluetooth LE is designed for stuff like earphones and wearable devices to communicate with your phone or your computer while you're sitting front of it. 

Of course, then there's the question if any new longer range Bluetooth version does appear, will make it to any future remote.  If they're dropping the remote for their flagship command system, what does that suggest for future development in general?

John, please stop trying to convince the non-believers with common sense and facts.... it leaves more of the limited supply of remotes available for the rest of us .....

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

John, please stop trying to convince the non-believers with common sense and facts.... it leaves more of the limited supply of remotes available for the rest of us .....

-Dave

LMAO - I’m having trouble finding one tonight

Lionel will also end remote production at some point.  Lionel is clearly migrating towards the app and tablet, selling them alongside the traditional remotes until such time as the apps are sufficiently capable and developed and hoping that occurs (likely will) before they have to re-engineer the handhelds, while at the same time using technology to bridge the multiple operating systems (legacy, lionchief plus, lionchief) that have evolved to meet different market segments.  I think it is a sensible approach, but realize directionally it is the same approach MTH is taking.  MTH can get there a bit faster because it's sole system is DCS.

Finally, a lot of folks here bemoan the greying of the hobby.  Consistent with the poster above, my 8 and 11 year olds will only use the MTH app and we have had no issues with multiple locomotives, range, or anything else.  The traditional handheld is no longer really used and the app appeals to young hobbyists.  That is worth something.

As you all likely know, not only isn't there a physical remote in the last couple of years of MTH sets, but there isn't any means whatever of controlling the loco in the set per se. You must buy or have a smart device that you are content with using with the Explorer. 

I wonder how this news is received by potential purchasers of $400 toy train sets?  Cannot imagine it's a big crowd pleaser for those new to the hobby.  I will be surprised if this doesn't backfire big time over the long run.  Seems penny-wise and pound foolish.  I was astonished to find out when I bought a separate sale Explorer that it did not come with a power supply (maybe $10 cost?), nor any instruction or suggestion about an appropriate power supply other than a Z1000, for another 100 smackers.  

These control and power supply decisions strike me as distinctly consumer unfriendly in both instances.  No big deal for an experienced hobbyist with some technical know how, but otherwise....

"Lionel will also end remote production at some point.  "

I doubt if it will occur in my lifetime (give or take 10-20 years with any luck).  Ryan Kunkle stated so in the Notch 6 podcast.  The universal remote and the LionChief remotes are dirt cheap and very simple and reliable.  The key item will be a TMCC/Legacy to LionChief bridge for those using those systems and a LC to TMCC/Legacy bridge for those who want to use their LC or universal remote to talk to the occasional Legacy loco.  It appears this is feasible.

Personally, I very much prefer physical remotes for TVs, cable, Bose radios and would prefer them for video games if I played them.  Even cars with gigantic touchscreens maintain some physical controls for exactly the reasons people have mentioned for the MTH remote.  I prefer a mouse and keyboard for computers to touchscreens, which is another area where us older folks tend to like the tactile utility of non-virtual technology.