Just an Observation about Steam Preservation

Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

When the railroads were dieselizing, they were more interested in getting the steam locomotives off the books than saving them.  Once retired, their only true value was in scrap metal.

 

Plus, the preservation movement wasn't as organized then as it is today.  The dead lines were chock full of locomotives, but there weren't many organizations set up to rescue them. 

 

Places like Illinois Railway Museum (which started out to only preserve trolley and interurban equipment,) Strasburg, RR Museum of Pennsylvania simply didn't exist back then.

 

Rusty

I believe his name was C. Kevin McCabe, he worked at the IRM, back when I volunteered there (pre-kids). I forgot his exact quote, but it was something like to put anything in a barn costs $125 (???)/foot (around 1996). Take a 50' boxcar? Its gonna cost $6250 to keep it out of the rain. Or maybe it was just the cost of track+land, forget getting a barn over it too. The stuff ain't cheap and that money pretty much had to come from donations. He wasn't against necessarily 50' boxcars, just get one that has some unique historical aspect. Kevin later became president of the IRM, and sadly has passed away before his time.

 

He was a lawyer and had vanity license plates SHYSTER on some special Nissan sports car (300X??) .

Take a look at the B&O, and to a lesser extent the PRR. They made quite an effort to save save steam....but look what was saved.  All the old time stuff from the 19th century, or in the case of PRR, early 20th.  The idea of saving a "modern" steamer was utterly alien to them.  Without Link and a few others, you would have lost ALL modern N&W steam, including 611.  Uncle Pete saved a decent amount of modern steam, but they were awash in $$$, and were viewed as weird at the time...I mean imagine saving EIGHT Big Boys. Of course the classic screw-up remains the NYCS Hudson debacle, but this was our fault, and not Al Perlman.  OTOH, if you like the C&O K4 (like me)  you come out ahead with zillions of them saved, and most are still around !

Don't blame me.  I was still in my high chair when the NYC dieselized.

 

Rusty

No C&O K-2's or K-3's were saved, worse luck...they almost saved #1189. but let

it deteriorate.  That is one loco model I'd buy...

The scrap drives during WWII took their toll on a lot of iron.  

 

I agree with Colorado Hirailer, and they should have saved at least one of the C&O K2/K3's.

 

I remember seeing the 1189 in and out of Louisville, Ky as a kid. I remember seeing it 1st with a short Vandy tender( 4 wheeled truck), then they went to a larger 12 wheeled Vandy Tender, then the last time I saw it was coming in town with one of the Big Rectangular Tenders.

As a little boy, I never understood why all of the tender changing on one locomotive. I never saw it inside the roundhouse, saw a lot of steam in that town, that should have been saved, during my (hookie from school) bicycle visits, that I routinely made back in the day.

 

Yes, I would opt for 2 of those models in O Gauge 3 rail. If we could get some one to build them.

 

That engine and tender sat in the Russel yard, behind roundhouse up until the mid 70's, before they finally scrapped it out...........................Brandy!

 

I met an old gentleman several years ago, who was the Superintendent of the Russel Railroad Yard for many years, and was a promoted steam engineer, before getting into Supv.

He said that in those days it was just making room, and they would have given it to who ever, where ever, and towed it to them free of charge, not unlike they did many of their locomotives. 

 

I remember when they brought the 2716 to the Ky Railway Museum, located on upper river road. I remember seeing the Ohio River nearly covering it in March of 64, during the flood season. I thought for sure that it would never live again, but it did! They completely went through it, and put it into excursion operation.

 

Ask Rich Melvin, he ran it for a time, when they were doing the overhaul of the "765".

It was in dier need of overhauling, when they leased it, from KRM.............Brandy!

 

One observation I have made through the years:

The word "They" is used a lot!

"They should have done this"  "They should have saved that."

The words "I" or "We"  should be in there.

This applies to equipment that is in danger now, as well.

 

Lee

 

 

During WWII, the railroads were desperate for motive power, and nothing was scrapped unless it was completely useless.

 

Now, after WWII was another story.

 

Talking to my Dad, it was the Rocket Age, streamlining, space age technology, and speed was the thing.

Steam was out, and the railroads with high cost overages could not wait to cut labor, processes, and excessive maintenance out of the budget.

 

plus if you have a yard of steam engines sitting around, hey become a liability too.

I guess when it comes down to it, the priorities of a railfan differ greatly from those of a business.

Gentlemen,

   Got to admit I would have like it if they restored more of the Steam engines, however as with cars and electronics and everything else the technology moved on, and unfortunately Steam is a thing of the past, a great part of our RR History. 

PCRR/Dave

Good observation about "them" vs. "us".  Now it's our turn to be stupid. The Espee 4450 event is a classic example.  Whoever said an historic locomotive had to be 100% operable to be worth saving??? Just a couple years before, St. Louis cut up their RS1 and  FM switcher for hamburger and french fry money! Hope they all had fun, because now those pieces are gone forever! I call these out because in both cases, these pieces were already in museums!  Looking back at the Central Hudson fiasco, this was, in at least one case, a question of priorities. NRHS Lake shore Chapter chose to invest in the purchase of the Northeast, Pa. station and property at the same time three Hudsons were sitting derelict in Erie, Pa. scrapyards...where they could have been had for LESS money than LSRHS paid for the station. Somebody might say that Lake Shore had nowhere to keep a Hudson after it was rescued, but that could have been worked out with GE, as some of these folks worked there in middle management. I was not there for these events..but could have played a part in the saving of N&W 2174 in 1975-'76. Communication was the killer here, or lack thereof.  And to think, while Uncle Pete was saving all those Big Boys, we almost had TWO B&O EM1s!   Ya can't cry all the time, though....we did manage to get 611 and 1218, plus two UP GE 8500GTELs !  Be diligent, people...nothing is forever safe!

Well lets hope that B&LE 643 has a happy ending. I remember her in the Greenville, Pa. roundhouse....in near perfect condition.  I'd be happy saving B&LE 454, down on the Hartwell; for years the Erie switcher, based at Greengarden on the west side.

We can woulda, shoulda, coulda all we want about what happened in the past, but it's not going to change anything.

 

Even today, there are no guarantees that the objects of preservationist's desires, no matter how well intentioned or organized, will not meet the scrapper's torch.

 

Rusty

I can promise you that when the kids of today are in their retirement years, they'll decry all the classes of diesels that were rendered 'extinct' in their lifetimes.

One only has to look at how few ALCO PAs there are left today, to realize that. Several older diesel types are now totally gone forever.

the bottom line is you can't save 'em all. If the NYC had saved several Hudsons, train fans today would decry some other type of 'extinct' locomotive class instead...

This subject comes up on a regular basis. If Jerry Jacobson had a hundred twins maybe things would be different for steam locomotive preservation and yes diesels too.

You can't change the past....but you sure can learn from it !  Case in point: Getting the support structure in place for 611, and other potential reactivated N&W steam in place before getting too involved with other potentially side tracking issues. Maybe you can't cover every possibility, but we can use our heads for something other than a hat rack !

I agree, especially about B&LE 643...

Assuming they're interested in trains.

 

Rusty

That's what people said about my generation when I was a little kid, and when you see guys taking photos of trains trackside today, many of them about the same age I am now...

The problem was that when the age of steam was ending was a time when people weren't so interested in preserving the past. For example, very few cities had any kind of rules governing historical preservation back then, in most places such laws came about starting in the mid to late 1960's, so a lot of historical structures and districts were razed to make way for new buildings. People often got rid of cars every couple of years, and many of them ended up on the scrap heap, no one thought of them as 'classic cars' particularly (there were exceptions, of course). As others have said, it only became apparent after they were gone what was lost. I wish more were saved, but I am glad that people took the time, spent the money, to preserve what we do have, it is exciting that the UP is restoring the big boy, which is a costly, time intensive practice, and while that may generate them some good will, it must have taken someone welding several bean counter's mouths shut to allow it to happen, pretty amazing thing IMO. All those museums out there, big and small, are preserving this legacy, and I would rather say thanks to them then regret the past we cannot change. And if the guy who founded my company and sold it ever gets rich enough, maybe I can convince him to use some of his ill gotten wealth (said tongue in cheek) and recreate a Hudson or 2 *lol*

German, that concise statement speaks volumes. And it is absolutely true. One only has to look at the recent threads here and on trainorders.com about the CP's interest in acquiring Norfolk Southern to see it in action.

 

This buy-out/merger is a potential game-changer for the railroad business in the eastern United States, yet all the rail fans are concerned about is what the new railroad would be named. Really?

I don't think the railfans have any say in the matter.

Well actually, they do...in a round about sort of way. And we'll use the familiar N&W as an example.  In April of 1958, the company experienced a change in upper management, from a company operating man to a PRR installed financier / politician type. The steamers already given away (and this includes 2156, even though she was still on the property until 1959) were more or less safe. OTOH, those still in service, or in storage...were anything but safe.   Credit O.Winston Link, and a number of others for putting forth an effort to save a pitiful few of these machines. 1218 was only saved because she was one of three Class As disposed of to Union Carbide.  2174 and 2189 were not so lucky....but the three 4-8-0s at Roanoke were. N&W went thru a phase between 1958 and 1962-63 where anything that could be scrapped...was. The RR had mighty little to do with saving 611 in this time frame. Amazing they let the "General" on the property under steam in '62 !

Jaycee, Winston was not a typical railfan. I knew him and we spoke once about the preservation of those locomotives.

 

He had built tremendous credibility with the management at Norfolk & Western with the stunning night photo work he had done on the railroad. Comparing him to the typical railfan of today is apples and oranges.

Now that's a conversation I would like to have heard.

Once you got past his "crusty curmudgeon" facade and got to know him a little, he was a fascinating guy. I have a signed poster from the first public showing of his work hanging in my den.

 

I interviewed him for my "Queen of the Fleet" video which I produced back in 1982. He appears on camera in that video.

IIRC, Link had help, both with some N&W people (IE. Bob Claytor) and some outside the fence when it came to saving 611 from the pencil pushers. We also had F. Nelson Blount in the same time period, more or less.  These great visionaries couldn't have done everything on their own. I know guys in Erie, Pa. who helped with NKP 759 in Conneaut. I even helped with her one day up in Lebanon, NJ. at High Iron. We have today the opportunity to communicate to a hugely greater degree than what could be done in the late '50s. That does NOT mean that there was no way to get things done...it just  took more effort and time.  My point was, and remains...learn from our past mistakes, or oversights and seek to prevent needless debacles in the present and future. FWIW, we've got some rather talented people around today, making some interesting things possible...just as we've got the other kind; making possible things mighty difficult.  I leave it to the fan base to figure out who those groups are.

Regarding railroads donating steam locomotives for public display, at least one road was so disgusted by the lack of care given their donated locomotive, they went and scrapped it!  That was a Texas & Pacific 2-10-4. Guess not all communities were universally enthused about caring for such huge "memorials".

       A thought: steam locomotives have been preserved in far greater numbers then any other facets of our industrial heritage. 

You Fort Wayne guys have a lot to worry about with the CP-NS thing. It means if it happens, 765 will not be going anywhere for a long time. It will be stuck at the New Haven shops. Same for 611, it will be stuck at the VMT again. Hunter Harrison is all business, he could care less about steam excursions, he even stated his hatred for steam. Now, if Hunter retires and is replaced with a steam friendly boss, then things could change. The CP steam program could come back. Seems that the previous CP boss was steam friendly as they ran the Hudson plus they allowed Steamtown, Milw 261, etc. to use their tracks for excursions.

Robert K.,

 

Apparently you are not aware but no steam locomotive has been on more, different railroad companies than the NKP 765 (except for the 4449 and 2101 of the unique American Freedom Train in 1975 and 1976).  Of course, some of these have merged or changed hands since, but the list includes: N&W, Southern, NS, Chessie System, Seaboard System, TP&W, C&NW, RBM&N, AA, Great Lake Central, BNSF (at Rock Island), IHB, EJ&E, RailAmerica (Michigan, CF&E, Logansport), and Conrail.  Unremarked but still amazing was that the 765 operated on Conrail, CSX and NS- EACH - in roughly 1987, 88, 89 and maybe longer than that.  Repeat, operating on EACH of three competing Class Ones in the same year - at least 3 years in a row. 

 

Remember that with its lateral motion device on the number one driver,  the 765 can go around twenty degree curves and less than ideal track, fit on a 90 foot turntable, handle 33 passenger cars in the New River Gorge, go over a lot of bridges that can trip up heavier locomotives, go as fast as 79 mph when track conditions and risk management policies allow, and rarely miss a revenue trip.

 

Just like the BACK TO THE FUTURE movies, the future isn't written yet but the FWRHS and the NKP 765 will do just fine, thank you!

It must also be remembered that the 765 can only operate on a hosting railroads' pleasure.  If the management says no, 765 or any steam locomotive won't run on their rails.  Ask CSX or CP and as far as I know UP won't allow any operating "foreign" steam locomotives on its rails.

 

Things can change.  All it takes is a change in management, one way or the other.  The past is not an indication of the future. 

 

Rusty

 

Man...that is a real shame to hear about. There is another 2-10-4 locomotive (old ATSF #5021) along with a 4-8-4 (old ATSF #2925) that are just sitting on a side track not too far from the railroad museum in Sacramento, CA. Both locomotives are in rough shape, being exposed to the elements year-round and to make matters worse, both locomotives have become victims of graffiti tagging the past few years. It frustrates me as a fan of both the old Santa Fe and steam locomotives to see both of these engines being neglected like this. 

 

The images below showcase both locomotives sitting at two different spots on the side track next to the track used by the museum for excursion trains (pulled by the Granite Rock Co. #10 0-6-0, seen in the second image). The first image showcases both locomotives before they became victims of tagging, while the second image (captured from a Youtube video) shows the aftermath of heavy tagging on ATSF #2925.

 

 

To see the graffiti damage to ATSF #5021 and ATSF #2925, please skip to the 2:40 mark on the video below:

 

NOTE: If the video above does not show, the link below has it:

ATSF Locomotives (As Seen From Excursion Train)