K-Line TMCC GG1 sound issues

I'd check for the usual, the connector on the other end of the battery connector being secure, or a loose/broken wire.  It wouldn't hurt to reseat the RailSounds boards while you're looking.

 

Try swapping the power board with one from a working engine.

 

Okay, I finally got the time and did some simple trouble shooting.  First off, I'm a mechanical engineer.  This electricity stuff is all black magic.  But I know enough to be dangerous.  So I took the shell off of the GG1, pulled out my cheap Harbor Freight multi meter (MM) and started poking away.  It has a mother board (MB) with 3 daughter boards (DB). The daughter boards are marked sound, radio, and power.  All wire connectors go to the MB.  Testing was with no track power.  The battery is plugged in unless I say otherwise.  I found the battery connector and tested the power at the MB, I got .68V (All voltage reading are approximate.).  So I checked at the battery and got the same.  I unplugged the battery and got 5.5V.  Plugged back in and got .68V.  I grabbed my K-Line Big Boy's (BB) tender and took it's shell off.  I tested it's battery while connected and got 7.5V.  So I swapped batteries thinking I may have a bad one.  With the BB's battery int he GG1, it reads .68V.  The GG1's battery in the BB reads 5.5V.  So this leads me to believe there is a problem on the GG1.  I swap batteries back but only connect one lead of the battery.  I test for amp draw, and .01 amps.  My thought is now there is a short/parasitic draw of some kind.  I remove the sound board and test at the battery, still .68V.  I removed the radio board, still .68V.  I remove the power board and now I get 5.5V.  I pug the sound board back in, then the radio board, both times I get 5.5V.  I plug the power board in and get .68V.  I swap the power boards from the GG1 and the BB.  The BB still reads 7.5V and the GG1 .68V.  This leads me to believe the problem is the GG1's MB.  But I don't know where to go from here.  I know it has to do with the route of electrons to/from the power board on the MB, but I don't know how to find the short.  I hope some of you smarter folks can point me the correct direction.  Thanks.

   I would put the power board from the BB in the GG1 and test on track. If it still will not work, remove track power and check continuity between pin 13 on the power board and battery connector positive side. Then check continuity from negative side to pins 3 & 4. If you don't have continuity  then you have a bad battery connector, wires or motherboard. You can also check the voltage between pin 13 and 3 & 4, should read battery voltage.  

 

Bill

Bill-

Because I'm not sure what you mean by continuity, I ran the following test and hopefully you'll understand and be able to tell me what's up.

With the battery and power board installed, and the red lead of my MM on the positive of the battery, I get the .71V when the black lead of my MM on pin 13, all other pins are 0V.  With the black lead of my MM on the negative battery terminal I get the following when touched with the red lead:
pin 1 = .01V
2 = .01V
3 = .71V
4 = .71V
5 = .57V
6 = .57V
7 = 0V
8 = 0V
9 = .16V
10 = 0V
11 = .12V
12 = .13V
13 = 0V
14 = .33V
15 = 0V
16 = 0V
17 = .71V
18 = .71V
19 = 0V
20 = 0V
21 = 0V
22 = 0V
23 = 0V
pin 24 = 0V
The battery is reading .71V.
With the power board not installed, and the red lead of my MM on the positive of the battery, I get the 5.7V when the black lead of my MM on pin 13, all other pins are 0V.  With the black lead of my MM on the negative battery terminal I get the following when touched with the red lead:
pin 1 = .02V
2 = .02V
3 = 5.7V
4 = 5.7V
5 = .38V
6 = .38V
7 = 0V
8 = 0V
9 = .37V
10 = 0V
11 = .3V
12 = .3V
13 = 0V
14 = .3V
15 = 0V
16 = 0V
17 = .32V
18 = .32V
19 = 0V
20 = 0V
21 = 0V
22 = 0V
23 = 0V
pin 24 = 0V
The battery is reading 5.7V.
The mother board is 691-PCB1-072 Rev D.  The black lead of my MM is COM.

Look at the first minute of this video, if will explain how to test continuity.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SqGcXYmLw

 

Also look at this schematic for your test points. You only need pin 13 and pins 3 & 4. Test as describe in my last post.

On mine, the battery + is pins 3 and 4.  Battery - is pin 13.  Pins 1 and 2 are AC hot (center rail).  Pins 3 and 4 are chassis ground.  Pins 5 and 6 go to pins 5, 6, and 19 on the audio board.  Is the battery wired backwards?  I tried holding the battery connector backwards but still no sounds during power interruption.  Do I need to go ahead and swap the leads in the motherboard connector?

Did you perform a continuity test. The small post is the positive post on the battery and should go to pin 13

 

Bill

I did do the continuity test and the post above is the results.  And this is with the small round of the 9V battery as positive.  My battery positive goes to pin 3 and 4.  My battery negative goes to post 13.

Connect your battery, put your mm positive lead on pin 13 and your negative lead on pins 3 & 4. What is your reading. It should read + battery voltage. If it reads - battery voltage the the wires to the battery clip are crossed

 

Bill

I got -6V, so I swapped the battery leads.  Now the voltage doesn't drop to .7V with the power board in, it stays at the full 6V the battery is putting out right now.  When I ran it, still loss of sounds at loss of power.  I also noticed that when going forward, only the headlight lights up.  When going in reverse, both headlight and taillight light up.  Is that normal?  I though in reverse the headlight would be off, and only the taillight would be on.  The light isn't that big a deal, but I'd still like the sounds to keep going when I change direction.

You might want to try a fresh battery. Also since your running conventional I would try and find someone with tmcc to reprogram. I would also try the power board from your BB in the GG1 since you swapped wires.

 

Bill

I actually have a TMCC command base and Cab-1s coming so that I can try out the command world.  Once they are here, how would I reprogram the GG1?  I'll also retry the power board from the BB.  Also, could I try swapping the sound boards?  Sure, it'll be weird to hear a GG1 chuff, but it'd be one more thing to check for issues.  I'm guessing the radio board is in the boiler of the BB since it isn't in the tender, and the handrails are the antennas, so I wasn't going to try swapping them unless I had the boiler open to rework the smoker since it's rather weak.

 

Thanks for the help so far Bill.

 Your audio board should be fine, your sounds are working. The brownout circuit on the power board is the problem. That is what provides power form the battery when track power is interrupted and also the timer for shut down in conventional. The re-programming sequence should be in your engine manual. Also in the attached instructions.

 

Bill 

The GG1 power board works fine in my BB.  I tried it when I swapped boards before, the sounds worked during the power interruption.  But I'll still try again to make sure, hopefully tomorrow night.  I'll see what instructions regarding TMCC came with the GG1.  I know the BB's say see the instructions that came with your command base.  I'll read what you attached.  Thanks.

Did you use the GG-1 battery lead?  Try it and if it still works in the BB, you may need to look at the bottom of the GG mother board for a burned trace.  G

Okay, it seems that when the battery connector was made, they swapped the positive and negative leads.  And with the battery being shorted like that, it seemed to kill the new battery.  Once I put the battery from my BB in the GG1, all sounds work as they should, still going with power interruption.  So I need a new battery, and it's good to go.  Thanks for all the help.

 

@Bill, I did dig up the manual and it did have the reset instructions.  The number to enter is different than in your file.  If you'd like, I can let you know what number you use for K-Line diesels, with and without MARS lighting.

Hi Sinclair,
I am receiving a K-line GG1 with upgraded TMCC/Railsounds/electrocouplers.
Price was right but seller could only test it in conventional.
It only runs forward. Might be something as simple as being locked in forward via switch or may need a reset. Are you saying that the K-line Reset code for this is different than what the Lionel chart says?
If so, can you please post.
Also, is it possible to reset an engine ID without knowing the current one.
My K-line 4-6-6t instructions say that you can just power up, slide the switch to Program and assign a new id #.

With all the info I've read, you do not need to know the ID to set a new ID.  Which is good because my GG1 came with an ID that wasn't 1, so I just set it to 92 and away I went.  As for the instructions, it came with diesel locomotive instructions.  Under reprogramming LCRU it says press 8 for diesel or 5 for diesel with Mars Light or strobe.  I can take a photo of the page and post it if you need.  I'd do it now except my wife is using the camera to take photos of our 9 month old son.  The instructions that came with my K-Line Big Boy say press 4.  I haven't looked at my K-Line Allegheny's as it's till in the box waiting for Christmas.  My wife didn't know what to get me, so I got it and told her to give it to me along with the GG1.

Fred, I'd start by reprogramming the ID to whatever you like, and with the PGM/RUN switch still in program, hit ALT1 then 8 to set the type.  See if that helps.

 

Also, try testing it in conventional mode with the command base powered off, see if it will run in both directions that way.

 

Hi John,
My Gg1 arrived today. Usps priority mail did a great job other than wrongly telling me to expect it on the 28th.
Tuscan 5 stripe 4912.
Just had to interrupt my yard work. LOL

Low and behold, open the box and it was in almost perfect condition.
A little paint chip on one of the trucks but who cares.
Confirmed it had electro couplers which was a sure sign that it had been upgraded.
May have been a factory upgrade and just shipped in the original box. K-line did that a lot. Basic manual for a diesel and caution about breaking lifting rings. Have none and it is not a diesel.
Did not bother opening it up to put a battery in.
Just put it on the track, guessed on ID # 1 and off she went.
Changed ID to 49 and reset using code 8 per you recommendation and per the (diesel) manual. No mention of what is meant by operating pantographs so I just lifted one gently and up it went. Must mean that they are connected to the pickup roller.

No sound dropout without a battery unlike the original poster.
Sound is not nearly a full as my NYC S2 electric but that has Railsounds 5
And I may consider the series verses parallel motor rewire per suggested elsewhere.
With my sons Polar Express passenger cars in tow it is easy to spin the traction tires.
But I just might learn to be a bit less ham fisted on the throttle.

And the price was right. Due to the sellers statement about it only going in one direction, I offered him $137. on a $179. buy it now.

Took a chance and it paid off. Best deal that I ever got on a command loco.

Just happened to re-read this post and something clicked.
I also bought a GG1 about the same time as Sinclair.
Noticed that when I shut down power in TMCC mode it did not get the typical shutdown sequence.
Forgot that I put a battery in it and opened it up to put one in.
Saw the battery and it was deader than a doorknob.
Just thought I was a bad cell because I had never seen one go so fast in a railsounds engine.
Put brand new one in and still no shutdown.
Set it down and got distracted for a week.
Then by coincidence, I re-read this thread.
Sure enough, new battery was almost dead after a week.
Looked closely at the five pin connector on the motherboard.
Battery connects to motherboard at J8.
From the edge was the red wire and then black. Looking at the board and it is clearly visible that it says Gnd and the Bat +.
Have not tested but tradition says that black is - and red is +.
Looks like there must of been a batch of incorrect wire sets made.
What is even odder is that the black and red wires both have shrink tube in the middle as if someone spliced them back together after cutting them.
Guess we will never know.
But I will switch tomorrow and see what happens.

I'd be cautious about swapping leads until you verify with a meter that the battery connects to the proper place.  Pin 13 of the RailSounds power board is the positive side of the 9V battery, the negative should go to frame ground on pins 3 & 4 on the same card.  I have no idea what connecting the battery backwards will do, but it can't be good.

 

There was a flaw in some RailSounds boards that caused them to kill the battery in short order, though I recall they would leave some audio on.

 

As for the battery being backwards, so far as I can tell, it has done no damage to the boards at all.  What it does do it put the + of the battery to the outside rails, shorting the battery and making it dead.  My testing with the 9V from my Big Boy at the time, and now the battery in my Big Boy is dead, and it was only installed in the GG1 for maybe a total of 10 min.  But after switching the wires on the board, the new battery in my GG1 is still strong.  It's quite the puller, 50+ cars behind it and still going smooth as silk.  Well until I hit the O36 u-turn, then I pull the front half dozen cars off of the track.  As for TMCC from the factory, I know mine is such because it still has the factory brown shipping container, and it says right on it, TMCC and RS equipped.

Hi Sinclair,

When you switched the leads on the battery, did you get shut down sequence?

If not then no sense in switching, I will just leave battery out.

 

I will try to take a photo and post.

If the battery doesn't give you the shutdown, something is dead on the RailSounds board set.

Yes, once I switched the leads, I got shut down sounds.  My GG1 is 100% operational.

Hi Boxcar Bill,
Test results.

Motherboard connection j10. Not J8 which is rear coupler.
Left to right. Gnd/ batt/fl/gnd.
J4 next to it. RL/gnd/gnd/cab/ant/Gnd
J 10 connector had Red wire bat + and black wire Bat gnd reversed.

Pin 2 on j10 has continuity with pin 13 on RS powerboard.
Did not get continuity on either pin 3 or 4 to pin 1.
But I know pin 1 is going to ground because the trace connects to pin 4 on j10 which is gnd for front lights. Might explain the dim lights also.
Did not test for power because it is all dismantled and did not want to risk a short.
Pretty sure that I will get same results as Sinclair.

My question is what is the  preferred tool  to remove the female connector from the plastic housing. Must be something like the larger Amp tools.
Tried a probe and flat screwdriver but no luck.
any ideas?  Last resort I will cut wires and re splice but I have an aversion to splicing red to black. Some guy down the road might decide to "fix" my " mistake" and start the mess over again. Lol.

Which connector, the black ones or the Leoco connectors?  The Leoco connectors you just lift the plastic lock and slide the pin out.  The black ones with the round pin for power you need the removal tool or a thin brass tube of the right diameter to unlock the contact.

 

Is the Leoco the  tiny white ones?
It looks like the female has a small "barb" that keeps the the metal contactor from sliding out. I tried to push it down with a probe.
I am familiar with the Amp tube on a handle tool.
To be clear. The plastic connector is technically a male but the board has the little pins that slip into the connector holes.

Not the black ones. I have seen the four pin white ones on fan driven smoke units. Also on railsound 2.5 boards for chuff and potentiometer connections.

Can not post a photo from my phone. Maybe will try a magnifying glass.

Hi John,
Got it.
Not sure if it is the right way but slid a dental probe underneath and it came out.

Problem solved. All is working.
I will go with the bad batch of wire harnesses theory.
And since the wires were already reversed, I guess we can conclude that in this case reversing the battery connections is not fatal to the components. Just the battery.

Be sure to put a fresh battery in now that you have it fixed.  Glad my fix worked for another.

I use a tiny screwdriver, but that's the method.  Just pry that little tab up about 10 degrees and the contact slides right out.

 

Brand new. Other was DOA.
If you ran TMCC without battery, most people would never notice the issue.

I think he is talking about the molex style.  Which you do need to depress the tab on the connector pin itself to release it from the plastic housing.  I use a pin and press them in, then push back out once removed before reseating.

 

I wonder it a replacement battery connector was used that did not have the correct orientation.  G

Possible but that would make two.
It is a four wire harness with two to the battery and two to front lights.

My guess is it was a production mistake in the GG1 upgrade kits.
Sinclair said his outer box was labeled command.
Mine did not have one and the box did not indicate that it was a TMCC version.

The instructions were for both conventional version and TMCC which is typical of K-Line for that era.
Mine looked like a factory upgrade, but did have two of those 3m clear with the red button splices. Which means that it may of originally had a conventional e-unit and was changed out in the States. Never seen those on a direct ship from China.
Curious if Sinclair would be willing to open his to check.

I don't mind opening mine again, what is it you are looking for, I don't understand what you mean by the red button splices.