Here are a few photos of the 1361 in Altoona.
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Steam,(it's generation and use) is a rather interesting phenomenon. It really is a lot more complicated than putting a kettle of water on a fire. I personally find it very interesting to see pictures of boilers,fire tube,water tube,or hybrid. It doesn't matter. Then to see the 1361,well,that kicks it up another notch. Thanks for posting,Dave.
Norm
Norm posted:It really is a lot more complicated than putting a kettle of water on a fire.
Actually, it is pretty much that simple. In starting a cold engine, you light the fire, and sit around and wait for the water to boil. And wait. And wait.
The talent and skill comes when that steam needs to be used.
Thanks for the pics Dave. Was the locomotive on display with the boiler innards removed, or is this a restoration effort?
The question in my mind is what is the latest status of the 1361 restoration? Do these photos represent recently completed progress or has the boiler been sitting there with no apparent work going on?
Bill
Thanks for posting, David. I enjoy seeing these things.
Jim Lee
The biggest issue with the boiler is that it's not up to the modern standards set by the FRA when they had the big pow-wow and rules revision after the Gettysburg incident. The sheet thickness and staybolt spacing was barely adequate in 1920's when they were built new, rated at 215 PSI operating pressure. With the new regulations in effect, the boiler would only be spec'd for 160 PSI (give or take, this is the common number I've heard) Basically it needs a whole new boiler built to modern specs for 215 psi (or greater) and that is where the biggest issue lays. The museum seems to be of the preservation mindset where it needs to retain as much original material as possible, therefore it'll never run as long as it's in the museum's hands.
steam fan posted:The biggest issue with the boiler is that it's not up to the modern standards set by the FRA when they had the big pow-wow and rules revision after the Gettysburg incident. The sheet thickness and staybolt spacing was barely adequate in 1920's when they were built new, rated at 215 PSI operating pressure. With the new regulations in effect, the boiler would only be spec'd for 160 PSI (give or take, this is the common number I've heard) Basically it needs a whole new boiler built to modern specs for 215 psi (or greater) and that is where the biggest issue lays. The museum seems to be of the preservation mindset where it needs to retain as much original material as possible, therefore it'll never run as long as it's in the museum's hands.
That's interesting info; thank you. I was wondering because the side pic of the firebox shows some identifying marks on the steel and a couple of weld lines.
I talked to the new director yesterday and he informed me that they are just going to reassemble and take it from there.
The posted photos were taken inside the roundhouse. The tender is also in the roundhouse. The frame, drivers and MANY other parts are in the building across the turntable.
I tinker with forming metal (nothing this big or thick) so I was amazed to see the amount of craftsmanship that went into making something like this. I'm glad some of you enjoyed the photos!
From what I've read it only needs a new FRA compliant firebox.
Someone could live in that firebox !! Beautiful piece of work. I guess reassembled would be better than a pile of scrap parts.
Casey Jones2 posted:From what I've read it only needs a new FRA compliant firebox.
Only?
Good morning, thanks for the photo's Dave !!!!!
At least something is going on with this engine !!!
Dave,
Thanks for posting. I don't think that the average person(non-train nut) has a clue as to how much $$$ AND technical/craftsman skills it takes to build/fabricate/restore one of these pieces of machinery art. Last time I saw this engine was back in September 1985 on a motorcycle ride that me and my buddy took to the Curve. It happened to be the day that Conrail pulled the engine from the park and towed it back into Altoona. We ended up spending the whole day there. Conrail had laid a temporary spur track from the inside main track to the display track. Once 1361 was gone, Conrail drove the GP9 onto the display track. When we left, Conrail was finishing pulling up the temporary spur track and re connecting the inside main for regular service. I took color slides that day, but have been unable to find them-if I do i'll post them.
Nick
WftTrains posted:The question in my mind is what is the latest status of the 1361 restoration? Do these photos represent recently completed progress or has the boiler been sitting there with no apparent work going on?
Bill
the latter....
steam fan posted:The biggest issue with the boiler is that it's not up to the modern standards set by the FRA when they had the big pow-wow and rules revision after the Gettysburg incident. The sheet thickness and staybolt spacing was barely adequate in 1920's when they were built new, rated at 215 PSI operating pressure. With the new regulations in effect, the boiler would only be spec'd for 160 PSI (give or take, this is the common number I've heard) Basically it needs a whole new boiler built to modern specs for 215 psi (or greater) and that is where the biggest issue lays. The museum seems to be of the preservation mindset where it needs to retain as much original material as possible, therefore it'll never run as long as it's in the museum's hands.
Thanks for the explanation.
So if they reassemble it without redoing the boiler would it be possible to run it at that reduced steam pressure with a diesel helper pushing on the back end of the train?
Bill
WftTrains posted:steam fan posted:The biggest issue with the boiler is that it's not up to the modern standards set by the FRA when they had the big pow-wow and rules revision after the Gettysburg incident. The sheet thickness and staybolt spacing was barely adequate in 1920's when they were built new, rated at 215 PSI operating pressure. With the new regulations in effect, the boiler would only be spec'd for 160 PSI (give or take, this is the common number I've heard) Basically it needs a whole new boiler built to modern specs for 215 psi (or greater) and that is where the biggest issue lays. The museum seems to be of the preservation mindset where it needs to retain as much original material as possible, therefore it'll never run as long as it's in the museum's hands.
Thanks for the explanation.
So if they reassemble it without redoing the boiler would it be possible to run it at that reduced steam pressure
Yes, and THAT has been proposed to the Museum Management.
with a diesel helper pushing on the back end of the train?
No, as such an operation would probably NOT be allowed in todays modern railroading. Besides, the odds of 1361 EVER leaving the Altoona Museum under her own power for excursions on Norfolk Southern, are VERY slim, if at all.
Bill
Long story short, they got some bad information years ago and cannot understand that even if they do plan to "just go around the yard out here," there are still laws that must be followed or they won't be allowed to steam up even to some very reduced pressure (all kinds of figures out there--someone once told me 40 pounds, which I doubt could move her own weight.)
The old boiler would make a great exhibit, because the disposable nature of it points out how many locomotives the Pennsy maintained and how the shops maximized efficiency even if it does sound ruthless today. They really were built to last a predictable amount of duty hours and be replaced, and it's not insulting to the craftsmen to say so.
At the risk of sounding negative, we will be lucky to have it put together and shown as a display.
Amen to that !!
There is a great book out there about boilers and steam generation. It was done by Babcock & Wilcox. It is titled:"Steam,It's Generation and Use". I cherish my volume which was given to my by the chief engineer that taught me when I got my stationary engineer ticket many,many years ago.
Norm
Hot Water posted:Casey Jones2 posted:From what I've read it only needs a new FRA compliant firebox.
Only?
What I mean is from what I've read over on TO thru the years about the sad state of 1361 is that it needs a new firebox and not the whole boiler.
Casey Jones2 posted:Hot Water posted:Casey Jones2 posted:From what I've read it only needs a new FRA compliant firebox.
Only?
What I mean is from what I've read over on TO thru the years about the sad state of 1361 is that it needs a new firebox and not the whole boiler.
That is sort of an oversimplification. It would probably easier to just make a whole new boiler/firebox assembly, since corners of the Belpair Firebox Design are not easy to attach to an existing "old" boiler. One suggestion has been made to simply make a whole new radial stayed boiler design, and then fake the external Belpair "squareness" appearance with cosmetic insulation & jacketing.
Hot Water posted:WftTrains posted:steam fan posted:The biggest issue with the boiler is that it's not up to the modern standards set by the FRA when they had the big pow-wow and rules revision after the Gettysburg incident. The sheet thickness and staybolt spacing was barely adequate in 1920's when they were built new, rated at 215 PSI operating pressure. With the new regulations in effect, the boiler would only be spec'd for 160 PSI (give or take, this is the common number I've heard) Basically it needs a whole new boiler built to modern specs for 215 psi (or greater) and that is where the biggest issue lays. The museum seems to be of the preservation mindset where it needs to retain as much original material as possible, therefore it'll never run as long as it's in the museum's hands.
Thanks for the explanation.
So if they reassemble it without redoing the boiler would it be possible to run it at that reduced steam pressure
Yes, and THAT has been proposed to the Museum Management.
with a diesel helper pushing on the back end of the train?
No, as such an operation would probably NOT be allowed in todays modern railroading. Besides, the odds of 1361 EVER leaving the Altoona Museum under her own power for excursions on Norfolk Southern, are VERY slim, if at all.
Bill
Here's a link to the Gettysburg incident report:
I wonder how long it will be before they get her up and firing once again?
Kelly Anderson posted:How does "forever" grab you?
I hope I'm wrong, but don't bet against me.
I am not a betting man(says the guy who plays the lottery), lol. Maybe we should get some coal dust and bless the engine?
That sure is a big paperweight.
Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan posted:Long story short, they got some bad information years ago and cannot understand that even if they do plan to "just go around the yard out here," there are still laws that must be followed or they won't be allowed to steam up even to some very reduced pressure (all kinds of figures out there--someone once told me 40 pounds, which I doubt could move her own weight.)
The old boiler would make a great exhibit, because the disposable nature of it points out how many locomotives the Pennsy maintained and how the shops maximized efficiency even if it does sound ruthless today. They really were built to last a predictable amount of duty hours and be replaced, and it's not insulting to the craftsmen to say so.
Having the boiler separate from the rest of the engine and using both to explain how a steam engine worked might make a great exhibit.
Since it appears to be cost prohibitive to being it up to modern specs for operation, I hope it is put back together, cosmetically restored, and displayed somewhere. Otherwise it will just get parted out, and that is the true tragedy.
1361 needs a miracle. New boilers could be bought, but it is the pursuit of such a thing that would be the miracle based on the current attitude of the museum (or at least how it appears). I was explaining to my sister this morning on the phone how if there was such a category for state locomotive, no doubt PA would be K4 1361 for steam, and the GG1 for electric(not sure what diesel would be in that mix).
Question is, what would it take for the museum to pursue a complete restoration to full operating condition for use of excursions? What would be the benefits to them other than having it be a simple static display like it was years ago? Is it possible to get a big investor to make them change their mind(like Warren Buffett)? We can only hope for a MIRACLE.
Strasburg has a plan to return the LIRR engine to service that has the same design problem, just waiting on the LIRR Museum to raise the money.
1361 has had a history of financial misuse that keeps a dark cloud over any future prospect of any future fund raising. Then if a miracle would happen, they would still need a place to run, and with Mr Morman's retirement,and NS's cooling to stem, that doesn't seem likely.
ANd I have a newspaper article from several years ago, where 1361 was named the state locomotive.
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I was explaining to my sister this morning on the phone how if there was such a category for state locomotive, no doubt PA would be K4 1361 for steam.
Both existing K4's were designated the official state steam locomotive almost 30 years ago.
Dominic Mazoch posted:Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan posted:Long story short, they got some bad information years ago and cannot understand that even if they do plan to "just go around the yard out here," there are still laws that must be followed or they won't be allowed to steam up even to some very reduced pressure (all kinds of figures out there--someone once told me 40 pounds, which I doubt could move her own weight.)
The old boiler would make a great exhibit, because the disposable nature of it points out how many locomotives the Pennsy maintained and how the shops maximized efficiency even if it does sound ruthless today. They really were built to last a predictable amount of duty hours and be replaced, and it's not insulting to the craftsmen to say so.
Having the boiler separate from the rest of the engine and using both to explain how a steam engine worked might make a great exhibit.
2nd. A really great teaching instrument.
rdunniii posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan posted:Long story short, they got some bad information years ago and cannot understand that even if they do plan to "just go around the yard out here," there are still laws that must be followed or they won't be allowed to steam up even to some very reduced pressure (all kinds of figures out there--someone once told me 40 pounds, which I doubt could move her own weight.)
The old boiler would make a great exhibit, because the disposable nature of it points out how many locomotives the Pennsy maintained and how the shops maximized efficiency even if it does sound ruthless today. They really were built to last a predictable amount of duty hours and be replaced, and it's not insulting to the craftsmen to say so.
Having the boiler separate from the rest of the engine and using both to explain how a steam engine worked might make a great exhibit.
2nd. A really great teaching instrument.
You know what's an even better teaching instrument?
An operating steam locomotive.
Thanks DAVE for the great pictures.
smd4 posted:You know what's an even better teaching instrument?
An operating steam locomotive.
I disagree with that, as there are any number of "operating steam locomotives" around the world, yet the average person has no clue how they actually work. For example, during our display time in Owosso, MI at the big Train Festival event in 2009, we had the cab of 4449 open for public tours, while she was fired-up. We could fit 5 to 8 people in the cab at a time, and during one of the many question and answer periods, as different folks walked through the cab, I was explaining what the different valves & controls were, showed them the fire through the sanding peep hole, and how much fuel and water she typically used pulling a normal passenger train. One lady asked, "What is in that car right behind us?", and I explained how the tender is draw-bar connected to the engine, and how much fuel oil and water it holds when full, etc., etc., etc.. A few more questions about oil vs. coal, and suddenly a man asked, "What's the water for?"! I was stunned! One of the few times in my life I have speechless, and the other folks in the cab began to laugh, on top of that. As I tried to regain my composure, the guy got mad, said something unkind to the rest of the folks, and pushed his way out the exit side , and left. One younger women, with her two kids, said thanks, and offered "Don't worry, it takes all kinds!", as that group departed.
My point is, a fully dissambled steam locomotive, with the boiler off the frame, and all the internal components of both the boiler/firebox and engine running gear full exposed, is much more able to be a VERY informative teaching tool, especially for those who have really no clue.
smd4 posted:rdunniii posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan posted:Long story short, they got some bad information years ago and cannot understand that even if they do plan to "just go around the yard out here," there are still laws that must be followed or they won't be allowed to steam up even to some very reduced pressure (all kinds of figures out there--someone once told me 40 pounds, which I doubt could move her own weight.)
The old boiler would make a great exhibit, because the disposable nature of it points out how many locomotives the Pennsy maintained and how the shops maximized efficiency even if it does sound ruthless today. They really were built to last a predictable amount of duty hours and be replaced, and it's not insulting to the craftsmen to say so.
Having the boiler separate from the rest of the engine and using both to explain how a steam engine worked might make a great exhibit.
2nd. A really great teaching instrument.
You know what's an even better teaching instrument?
An operating steam locomotive.
The Gettysburg incident report disagrees. No one operating that locomotive had a clue how the water management system was supposed to work and thus was not concerned that NONE of it was properly working, Not the feed pump, not the injector, not the sight glass and not the gauge cocks cause none of them knew how to maintain those things properly.
The guy who owned the Gettysburg RR had others, all rather poorly run.
Steamtown, which is a museum, primary, has a lot of displays that explain the operation. The K4 boiler and parts scattered everywhere only added to museum effect, IMO. The current effort, Boston and Maine 3713, seems to be following the same path. A fire box that is unconventional with a syphon-jet feature. Not sure how that will be treated by the FRA. One of the cut-away displays. 
My favorite with the florescent light. Blue is water in the boiler. White is steam. Picture above, apparently a few staybolts were leaking. 
Baldwin #26 0-6-0 was a 20 year rebuild by my count.
A look at the inside of the fire box of the K4 as the mud ring was replaced. Yep, they allowed me to crawl-in and take pictures, (Museum). Exterior side sheet pictured, top of picture part of the interior sheet. Note the long braces/stays to the fire box door sheet right in picture. Mud ring positioned with bolts bottom of picture.
Just checking here - the K4 parts are now scattered in Altoona, the B&M 3713 in Steamtown, correct? Sure hope there aren't K4 parts in two shops any more. What do the Altoona guys say about the potential for the K4 to ever run again? Sad that the PRR saved one of the older worn out K4's (then let it sit on Horseshoe curve for 20 years before attempting to rebuild).
Jim
