Kadees and the new Lionel Santa Fe Map Reefers

Don't count on THAT from Lionel. By the way, do these newest reefers have the standard "Blt by Lionel 8-2012" date painted on their sides? Just getting Lionel to stop THAT will be a big step, in my opinion.

I fully agree KD. Except, Lionel doesn't really care about, nor cater to, the "scale modeler" anyway.

Thanks for the heads up on the Kadees. My 5 car set will arrive today. I only wanted 2 of them so I will liquidate the other three. My small layout will handle 2 of them for my grocery wholesaler but that's it.

Malcolm

 My only point was that Accurail (HO) does that, also; for $3.00 you can buy an additional set of 12 accurate car numbers to increase the size of your fleet without having them padprint and catalog 12 additional models.

KD - Don't get me started on that, which is to say that I think that Lionel would benefit from spending a little time studying what is going on in the HO market with serious modelers.  Fortunately since MTH has entered that market, they have been learning more about what HO modelers want and from what I hear are applying some of it to their O product line.  To a greater degree Atlas was always there. 

I basically agree with anyone that wants a more scale product.  The only thing required for a lot of it is good research and there are ways for manufacturers to go out of house and find correct information without it costing a fortune.

Lastly, when doing the post I probably was a bit too deep into the Railbender Ale which I came across at the grocery store yesterday.  Seriously, but very enjoyable! 

Lionel doesn't really care about, nor cater to, the "scale modeler" anyway.

I wouldn't be quite so quick to say that.  I talked with a Lionel person at this spring's York regarding their Santa Fe 57' mechanical reefer.  I forwarded information posted here by knowledgeable Santa Fe guys regarding paint and lettering colors and proper numbers for PacCar built cars.  I got a very positive response.

Since we have 40' steel reefers available from Lionel, Atlas and MTH could a Santa Fe fan tell us what about each model falls short of accurately depicting a Santa Fe prototype?

I can get to more later, but a trait that is easily noticed is that the ice hatches open in the opposite direction.  BTW, I'm not fully knowledgeable on what series, etc.  I had read that in the early 50's Santa Fe standardized the roof hatches to some degree, but I never took the time to fully check out each class of reefer.  I do have a 288 page book on ATSF refrigerator cars and have tried to work my way through the parts dealing with my era but am far from definitive answers. 

I will try to find some info to put up at some point.

Did the "positive response" also indicate that they would STOP painting that "Blt by Lionel****" date on the sides of their $60+ scale pieces of rolling stock?

I do agree with Hot Water. 

On Lionel's PW and "classic" lines the "Blt by" is expected and probably desired. 

With the Standard O equipment they ought to drop it.  Sales would probably pick up.  I would imagine that more buyers pass on Standard O cars because of the "Blt by Lionel", than do buy them because of that.  The vast majority of Standard O buyers are beyond that. 

Marker;

There was someone (Rails Unlimited, I think) at O Scale West who was showing an excellent ATSF urethane reefer kit or built.  Intermountain, of course, makes several different classes of ATSF reefers in N scale...if only.

allan

I had heard that Rails Unlimited did make the Santa Fe reefers too, but their website hasn't been updated in years and I've never gotten any responses to emails, are they still around or what?  I'm probably thinking it was someone else with those kits.

I'm not finished with this car but I did want to say that I was able to remove the "Blt by Lionel" from the car using some micro-fine sandpaper.  Luckily I used chalk experimenting on this car.  It didn't photograph very well and I have since removed it. 

Well, I just disassembled one of these in preparation for 2 rail conversion. I will have to build a bolster for the 2R trucks and add a mounting pad for the Kadee couplers. I am using the new 740 KD and will attach them so they can be removed for

dis-assembly. The first thing I did was to tape the doors closed from the inside, I can't stand those opening doors (just me)!

I am looking to convert the ice hatches to open toward the end of the car and add new running boards. I don't believe it will be that difficult and it would give it a MORE prototypical appearance, not perfect but closer.

More later as I get further into this.

Malcolm

I am looking to convert the ice hatches to open toward the end of the car and add new running boards. I don't believe it will be that difficult and it would give it a MORE prototypical appearance, not perfect but closer.

You are right and you are the guy to do it.  I actually have some ideas.  If you give me the car numbers or the class numbers on you cars, I can see if I have any pictures.  Not all ice hatches opened toward the inside of the car and many cars had additional roof details like the one below.  That's where I thought your abilities would really enhance these cars.

I wanted to use the Chief(3500) or Super Chief(7600) car for a guinea pig. I could change the numbers if need be.

Malcolm

Could someone give me a hand?

I would like to buy a set of these.

Charles Ro says they're not out yet?

Anyone have a lead?

Eliot

There is a set on the bay listed at retail price.

Search 6-17741 to find it.

Malcolm

Just found this one too,

http://www.patstrains.com/Prod...roductSearch=6-17741

Malcolm - I'll see what I can find and post it tomorrow.  I'll also check to see if the numbering Lionel used matched prototype with regard to number, car class, and slogan used. 

What I had been thinking while I was doing some research on these cars is that the extra wood where the ice hatches are raises everything above what the original body mold and would hide what was there originally and make it easier to model.

Even Lionel, MTH or Atlas could go back and add details like that to give their cars a more Santa Fe appearance if they wanted to spend the money.  I think it would work even if the prototypical roof (not hatch) and body details (like the style of car ends used) were different than the prototype. 

Thanks, fellas.

Eliot

I am watching your thread with a great deal of amusement. I like ATSF markings, and never knew the hatches opened the wrong way.  I have some cars built over 70 years ago with unprototypical lettering (Faber, I think, hand painted.). I treasure them.  Hatches definitely do not open at all.  Come on over to the 2-rail side - we (some of us, anyway) are able to overlook a lot of these flaws.

Bob2,

I too have many cars, All Nation & Athearn that are generic. I still want to try to make a couple of the Lionel cars closer to the prototype. It is fun for me to "kitbash" these things.

Malcolm

I got this one 2 railed this one and added Kadee 740 couplers. I added .060" shims to the couplers. Now I need to touch up paint and weather the car.

While doing some research on these cars I came across this, thought it was interesting and will pass it on.

"An article in a March 1947 issue of the Santa Fe magazine, heralding the delivery of these cars (along with the USRA rebuilding program), stated that the Santa Fe now had 'a sufficient number [of cars] to transport all perishable traffic offered, if permitted full control and use of its own equipment.'  Because of the national car pool, a wartime expediency that was still in effect, the Santa Fe was able to use only 77% of its car fleet in 1946. It was an obvious sore point."

I find it interesting from the stand point of extrapolating what that means to modeling, not to mention historical value.  It wouldn't be too many years more before that huge fleet of refrigerator cars would start their decline. 

Brother Love,

   Looks good!    Seems it is riding a bit high on the trucks tho.   Can it be lowered about the same as the thickness of the styrene pad you used for the kadee and thus eliminate the kadee pad?

I recently posted this information.

Helpful diagrams from the Kadee site. A lot of information on this page.

Note that 1 1/16" is 11/16"
Kadee 805

Kadee 806 short

Kadee 847 Underset shank. Coupler center and mounting height are the same.
Kadee 742 Overset shank Increases mounting height.

Note that the new 742 has an Overset shank which increases mounting height (57/64", .890"). Gains about .110" over standard coupler mounting height (25/32", .781") either the 805 or the new 740 that Malcolm used.

That .110 would drop the coupler enough to  be a  close match on Malcolm's couplers pictured. Nice picture and very nice install.

Yes, it is riding high. That is the original trucks with 2R wheels. I will eventually add new 2R trucks but I will have to remove the Lionel bolster and build a new one. That will allow me to remove the shim. That will be for another day.

It is a shame too because the Lionel trucks are very nice other than the mounting system. It is definitely not designed for 2R (not complaining, just fact).

Malcolm

Malcolm;

While I've never put KDs on Lionel reefers, I have done quite a few Lionel boxcars.  I use intermountain trucks and wheels and three 2-56 washers.  The KDs then match the gauge and with the addition of uncoupling levers they look good.

Allan

Kadee 743 has the same layout and dimensions as the 806 (short) pictured above. 17/32" draft box  v.s. (25/32") for the 805 coupler.  8/32" or 1/4" short as was mentioned.

That truck sideframe looks as good as any.  You sure the bolstr cannot be trimmed down a bit?  I was able to machine the not-quite-as-accurate K-Line truck down a lot without structural weakening.  I'd pay shipping for a Lionel truck to experiment with.

Mike - I had started to use the 806 but decided to use the 743 because I just got them and I wanted to see the results.  I have a lot of 806's left and am planning on replacing the F unit 806's with the 743's because of looks.  I'll use the rest of my 806's on the rest of my rolling stock now that there is a choice.  I have some other road names that need them.

I'm asking this question.  Because the spring is placed on the front side of 806/743's, does that affect the operating characteristics?  Anyone using both of these couplers should know the answer.  My plans are to do some switching with the reefers.

I did mine the same way I did all my reefers. Cut all that extra metal out, add 2 .060 shims, and a Kadee 805. I have the 740 series but haven't even tried them on my switching layout yet.

That's nice Laidoffsick, I was wondering where the extra room came from to mount the longer gearbox.  I might go to that if there is an operational difference.

Do you know if there are any operational differences with regard to switching and uncoupling, between an 805 and 806?  As you know the centering spring goes on the opposite side and therefore the in and out movement of the coupler is reversed.  (I don't know if I explained that well, but you should know what I mean if you have used both types.)

I do the same thing that "laid off" does, on the VERY few Lionel trucks/cars I have up-graded. Thus, every car gets the same #805 coupler, although when I run out of #805s, I'm going to #740 couplers.

I have never felt the need to use a "short shank/box" coupler arrangement, since I always make sure the truck swings freely, i.e. anything sticking out of the truck, gets cut off!

If I remember correctly, on SFRD cars, the ice hatches on the top opened to the ends, and not towards the catwalk.  If true, why did they do that?

Well you guys have a lot more operational miles than I do. 

I had avoided cutting anything off the truck because I thought it might help with structural integrity.  If you look at Laidoff's truck you will see that he also removed some of the bottom part of the stamped metal.  Perhaps that came off with the two cuts.  As you can see in my picture, without cutting, when you look at the end of the truck you see a rectangular shape with four sides which I thought would be stronger.

I'm not trying to argue my point as much as trying to learn the best method. 

Structural integrity is NOT an issue... I've never had any problems doing it that way. There's no right or wrong way to do it, my way just eliminates all that extra metal with 2 cuts. When you look at the car from the end, all you see is axles and wheels... just like the real cars.

Now from a switching stand point, I use Kadee magnets between the rails.... so I have to remove that excess metal. Otherwise the magnets grab hold of the Lionel uncoupler tab and really messes up the whole operation.

Not to mention, how many "toy train guys" even know that particular feature, among others incorrect features for these Santa Fe reefers?

Now from a switching stand point, I use Kadee magnets between the rails.... so I have to remove that excess metal. Otherwise the magnets grab hold of the Lionel uncoupler tab and really messes up the whole operation.

Great information and very helpful.  I appreciate that.

One more question how do you deal with that raised portion that runs down the center of the car (where the red arrow is).  I used a shim on each side.  Is there a better method?

Here is the way I rebuilt mine to accept the 2R trucks. With this arrangement the 740 couplers are the correct height w/o the .060" shim. The couplers boxes were altered for the Lionel trucks.

Malcolm