Kadees and the new Lionel Santa Fe Map Reefers

The "They" in my question is SFRD:  Why the different ice hatch doors vs. everybody else?  I don't do SFRD in scale, and don't know many of their features, but at least i know that one.

I have seen many times a scale model being used for the wrong railroad.  Ok for traditional 3R, but for this group NO WAY!

Laidoffsick - Thanks so much for your advice.  I tried cutting the trucks last night and it is the way to go.  It's a clean easy solution. 

Since I operate by myself.  I am looking forward to trying the Kadee magnets for switching. Your explanation of why it was necessary to cut all of that out prompted me to do so.  The truck is also still very solid.  I think these were the first Lionel freight cars I started converted to Kadees.  You saved me a lot of trouble trying to figure out why the magnets didn't work.

I'm glad this section has the expertise on a lot of this stuff.  It's real handy there are posters like Hot Water and the other members of that group run long trains on display and are able to get the experience to see what reliably works.

Laidoffsick - I have watched some of your switching videos.  I don't know if I've seen the latest, but I learned from what I watched.  They were very good.

Whoops - Brother Love, I almost forgot.  I've always considered your work at a whole new higher level.

Reconstruction is underway.

Malcolm;

You are nailing it!  The safety platforms make all the difference.

Time to start marketing your rebuilds.

Allan

Are these cars nearly PFE orange like the two earlier Lionel (steel side and plug door) SFRD reefer cars? Catalog image looks yellow. Thanks

Are these cars nearly PFE orange like the two earlier Lionel (steel side and plug door) SFRD reefer cars? Catalog image looks yellow. Thanks

They are almost a  match to color that Atlas used on their ATSF steel reefers.  They are NOT the orange used on the earlier Lionel reefers like the plug door version.  Also, it is not yellow.

Malcolm - that is very nice work.  I knew you could do it.

That looks great! What did you scratch up the styrene with to give it the wood grain look?

Many thanks to all of you. I am learning quite a bit and especially about these cars.

The truth is, I never realized what a nice job Lionel did on these cars. I understand that

the hatches are incorrect and there are other details that can be improved upon, not the least of which is the Lionel name.

I had a bunch of Lionel orange PFE reefers I opened up and I really loved them. So much, in fact, I ordered the eight car SF map set set ( well, actually the five set and three set). Not easy to find, BTW. 

I love this thread. Keep up the great work !!

Marker, thanks. I am starting another one with steel roofwalks.

L.O.S., In the photo after I painted the roof you can see my wood grain tools. That is an old, used X-acto saw and then I run the Wal-mart fingernail board over the plastic to remove the fuzz.

Ted- Forum member Norton pointed something out to me that I hadn't thought about, and this is a real Santa Fe trait, fishbelly frames.

Intermountain HO did a set of SF reefers (based on PFE) but added fishbelly frames and reverse hatches.

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/horeefers.htm

Lionel could replace the frame on their cars, add a Santa Fe styled hatch and use the classes Intermountain used because they would be correct for the fishbelly frame. That would have a nice Santa Fe flavor.  I would also be a great time to leave off the "Blt by".  It could be marketed as a new class of Standard O.  They would then find if the extra effort was worth it.  Personally, I would buy every number they made.

You mean like this?

Let's see:  Buy an expsensive car, then virtually have to scratchbuild it?  Just make th car right the first time.  This is an ATSF car.  Make a run of them every so often, and you will have your molds paid off.  PFE, SFRD, and WFE are three "roads" modelers are going to need a lot of if they are doing western roads.

You are kidding, right? Almost every car that is offered in O scale is generic. I have to rebuild everything from All nation to Lionel to get them to match prototype photos. I am not complaining because it is a part of the hobby I enjoy. Of course I could run them as they are but that would not be as much fun.

Malcolm

Excellent response, Malcolm!  That is really one of the better points in what model railroading is all about. The 3RS Forum really isn't about, "Open the box, out it comes, and run it."!

My point was NOT against modifing the car.  My concerns are about the cost of the car to begin with, then having to modify it.  O does not have the "tradional Athearn" kits/cars which are reasonable priced so you can bash.  (maybe Weather undercoated can come under this concept.)

Then again, in HO, A does not have kits anymore.

For wood "grain". take a shart X-acto knike, and slightly groove the "wood" you want in one direction only.  Just enought for the grain.

Anyway, why did the ATSF have the roof ice hatches they way that they did.  (That ATSF wanted to is NOT an answer!)

Sure it's an answer! Maybe not the answer YOU have been looking for, but some railroads did things certain ways, which is now lost to researchers. Thus, the only answer remaining is, "Because they wanted to."! Reasons WHY they wanted to may be lost for ever.

Dominic;

Actually, depending on the class, ATSF reefer hatches varied.  On the Rr-26 and Rr-46 and Wichita rebuilds the hatches opened to the outside as on the Lionel cars.  Many of the ATSF reefers were rebuilds of older class wood side cars that predated icing machines and had to be hand loaded.  I'm not sure but I would guess that the large wooden platforms and hatches opening to the inside were for safety reasons.  With the widespread use of the big icing machines they were no longer necessary.

Allan

I am dazzled by the quality of these plastic models and appalled by the price.  I bet they would be lower in price if the manufacturer/importer could make a profit at a lower price.

In fact, if there were a solid market for these exact cars done to perfection, then I bet somebody would be making them other than Malcolm.  

The fact is that I am doing them just for me. There is entirely to much labor involved to rebuild them for clients. It is worthwhile and enjoyable to me but probably not to a lot of other modelers. Disclaimer: no one has asked me to rebuild any for them, I am just making a point that it is worth it to me.

Although this is for another thread, I thought I'd post here.  Notice anything?  You have to pop it out to read it.

Ted - If you look at this, please see my post to you on the "Simple Answer" thread.

This was the 2009 TCA Standard O Convention car.

Fishbelly before painting

Based on the little bit I know about Santa Fe reefers and the great posts here I have some questions to ask about the prototypes.

1.  Apparently, the Santa Fe had a large number of reefers built with USRA type deep center sills that were rebuilt with steel sides.  When were these cars rebuilt?

2.  Many Santa Fe cars had ice hatches that were hinged toward the end of the car.  At some point this was reversed with the hinges moved to side of the hatch toward the center of the car.

      A.  Was the hatch change universal?

      B.  When did the change occur?

3.  When did the Santa Fe phase out wood sided reefers?

4.  Atlas, Lionel and MTH all make 40 foot steel sided ice bunker reefers.  Which are the closest to Santa Fe reefers of a specific class for a specific period?

5.  Atlas, Lionel and MTH all offer USRA box cars.  Is a floor and underframe swap possible for those desiring a fishbelly underframe?

Malcom,

How do you punch those rivets in your styrene? Do you use a wheel or are those made one by one? Beautiful underneath....it is almost a pity to paint it flat black.

Thanks

Yves

Yves, Those were done with a pounce wheel. Thanks, Malcolm

Ted;

Add this book to your collection.

Allan

Volume Two Refrigerator Cars: Ice Bunker Cars 1884-1979 .  by Keith Jordan, Richard H. Hendrickson, John B. Moore and A. Dean Hale			Same price for members and non-members $45 Quantity: <input name="VARQuantity002" size="4" type="text" value="0" /><input name="submit002" type="submit" value="Add To Cart" />
	This is a digitally scanned reprint of the classic and authoritative guide to refrigerator cars of the Santa Fe Railway. The book consists of 288 pages and over 400 photographs and drawings of Santa Fe equipment. Photos were re-scanned to provide as much detail as possible given age and contrast. The book covers Nineteenth Century (1884-1900), truss rod, USRA style and ARA cars, USRA and ARA rebuilds, Santa Fe's "new" steel 40 cars, and 50 foot cars. There is also an extensive discussion of the Santa Fe's efforts to rebuild and modernize its refrigerator car fleet. A separate chapter covers Ice Cars from 1908 through 1971. Appendices cover painting and lettering, slogan assignments, roster information and diagrams of selected equipment. The definitive source for information on this important class of Santa Fe cars.

I just finished this one by using the leftover roofwalk from the first conversion.

Malcolm

Brother Malcom,

Watching what you do is always a treat. You are definitely the King of Styrene and little details. This car is a marvel.

I am so glad that you did not give up on building trains, reefers and cabooses. I believe you have enough material to cover a beautiful article in O Scale Trains. This masterpiece will remain as a tribute to your skills and talents.

Yves

1.  Apparently, the Santa Fe had a large number of reefers built with USRA type deep center sills that were rebuilt with steel sides.  When were these cars rebuilt?

Between 1935 & 1950 Santa Fe rebuilt 10246 USRA reefers.  The classes were 16, 18, 19, 23, 25, 27, 28, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 39, 40, 43, 45, 46, and 48. 

The next rebuilding program started in 1953 and lasted until 1959.  One of the modifications was the hatch, they needed to be modified to accommodate the new icing machines.  The icing machines cut down the number of laborers needed to ice an 80 car GFX train by ten-fold. 

The ice hatches Malcolm is doing were originally done with safety in mind for the employees icing the cars.  With the advent of the icing machines they reversed the hatches and made the hatches lay flat so they didn't interfere with the icing machine.  The other modifications were accommodations requested by the UFFVA (United Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Association).  The book lists 26 modifications that might have been done.  Not all were done to every car.

They started phasing the cars out in 1962.  By only 1978 two cars were left, the last one was stricken from the Live List.  3% of the fleet mechanical in 1960, 21% in 1965.

The book Allan recommends is well worth it for someone interested, and NOT a quick read.  There is a lot of info but no table of contents or index.  It takes a little work to get all the info the book has to offer.

I have Atlas, MTH, Weaver, and Lionel ice bunker reefers.  Both Atlas and Lionel (on the latest effort) seem to have the correct paint color.  Prior to Atlas and now Lionel, all the other cars from MTH, Lionel, and a special run by Petersen of Weaver wood reefers were all too orange.  Now that I have enough cars the proper color for a reefer train, I can't decide whether to dump or keep the cars I purchased at an earlier time when the color was too orange, like a PFE orange.  

I talked to Atlas today and was glad to hear that steel sided reefers would be coming along sometime in the future.  If they do Santa Fe, I hope they move on from the "Chief" logo.  No date set.

Allan E - I did find a patched car number during a period of quickly renumbering some cars in the earlier time frame.

Ted if I make it to York, I will try to say hi.

Brother Love - Your too much!

Marker, did Atlas say they would be correct Santa Fe types?

Pete

No, they aren't Santa Fe prototypes, but the good news is they have come to agreements with their new factory to enable the 40ft steel reefers back into production.  Those were very nice cars. 

Here are some photos of a finished reefer before weathering. I realize they are not exact prototypes but they are closer. Malcolm

Seeing your work is one of the best things about the OGR Forum! 

BTW, I felt that way before you did anything Santa Fe.

I hope you post pictures of the weathered versions. 

I must say I am amazed by the workmanship here. I really think that this thread should be the seed for a article in OGR on Brother Love's efforts.

Allen E's book recommendation is spot on.

I was looking through my copy the other day...result of this thread...and came upon a couple of side-facts that forumites might be interested in.  For instance...

Erie RR guys!!  You should be buying a string of these ATSF reefers!  Erie's train NY-98 was a pride of the Erie RR, which billed itself as the Route of the Perishables.  It ran full strings of ATSF reefers into NYC and connections for New England.  It was part of the hustle-muscle arrangements ATSF had set up to get western produce quickly to eastern markets in the 40's.  The book has some nice Erie/ATSF photos...such as NY-98 (pg27) and a string of the reefers on a carfloat escorted by an Erie tug (pg 25).

Second item...  Talking about the hassle of eliminating the "Blt by Lionel" logo from the cars, and the non-ATSF features...  One of the several cars, #4244, a class Rr-27 reefer, Lionel 6-17743, had an even more unique set of features, as (its sister is) shown in a photo on page 139 of the referenced book.  It was one of several cars (~49) of this class that were given the new Preco air-circulating fans for better cool air distribution throughout the car interior.  As such there were several subtle but unique changes: Fan drive housings at the bottom of the left (airbrake wheel) side of the car on the second panel from each end.  Placement of these in this location required shifting all of the car data stenciling to other spaces on the car side.  Also, those car had the words "air circulating fans" stencilled above the doors.  So, getting rid of the Lionel schtick on that car is the LEAST of your problems!!!

Of course, that's the trouble with having a book like Allen suggested...it unearth's all of the subtle idiosynchrosies for each and every car that will drive a proto-phile to...never ending work at the bench!!!

Hey, FWIW, always...

KD

By the way, there is an excellent photo of a Lobaugh scale 2-rail refrigerator car on the web at the moment.  One photo clearly shows the word LOBAUGH lithographed by the ladder on the side.  I would be proud to own such a car.