Key Model Imports?

I agree although I will take my CLW PA's over yours   Now if I can just figure how to make the windshield glass...

I just LOVE PA's! They are all beautiful, different but all beautiful. 

So Railroad Guy - is yours all cast, or one of the newer etched models with incorrect nose?

And Eric - I too love the Grande Gold, and for that reason I shall get a photo of my silicon bronze MTH PA with that color scheme.  Talk about thread creep, and it is all my fault.

I LOVE you Bob! Keep the Creep up buddy! 

Hey Erik any pics yet on the Santa Fe early E units? I thought the late Es in Santa Fe were outstanding.

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Ken, I totally agree.

Erik, you are 100% right on that E5 hands down.

And for the record I love PAs also....specifically the NKP's....but I will take some spare Santa Fe power.....

Needs a nose job

But Harmon Monk is going to show me how it's done...

Which newer etched PA models with incorrect nose are you talking about?  The nose on the Key PA's were done right off the Builders erection drawings.  I provided copies of all  the original Alco PA Erection drawings to Key.

These guys are talking about 60+ year old kits from Central Loco Works, I built and detailed one of these fror the D&H back in the early 70s, unfortunately it was stolen from the O guage club in Haledon,NJ way back then. The original sand castings were done by Bob Smith for Alco I believe and when he decieded to market a line of powered kits he apparently used only the noses as castings. We are really talking apples and oranges here, as you are well aware these forums bring out a wide variety of opinions .

Ooo - photos, please!  That is what Smith made them for, originally, and supplying them to the O Scale community was, according to him, an afterthought.  Harmon was there when I got the story, and he can corroborate.

Butch,

Check out the nose on this one on Ebay: 140754197308

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-...;hash=item20c59a9b3c

The headlight is right on as compared to Roger's drawing. Sort of proves they are all over the map. Check out the shot with the headlight pointing left!

Simon

Thanks Simon. I've been following the "bay" for KEY models lately as there has been a bunch of 1st and 2nd run E & F units for sale and I was curious what they would bring. But I missed that light. It would be very disappointing to an unsuspecting  buyer. Some of the early OMI F Units were almost humorous if it wasn't so sad. 

This latest run of early E units are some of the nicest KEY diesel models I've ever seen.  The last run of PA's was pretty stellar too IIRC.

Butch

Drifting . . . This oneis for Eric:

It is MTH, but in silicon bronze.  We did it locally using something called "shell casting".  I had Dennis do two more, one in nickel silver, and they turned out much better.  The secret is double burnout times.

Didn't you do a write up in a mag awhile ago about that?

I am very happy to see a civil discussion taking place on this Forum.  I gave up on that other Forum because of certain people posting.  Last I checked it appears a lot of modelers gave up on it as it's appears almost dead.

Anyway, here is the nose of the F2 from the original EMD drawings showing the slop on the headlight.

Wow! That one (to my eyes) is darn near perfect. Look again at the image with the headlight pointing left and enlarge it. Then look at Roger's drawing that he just posted. Looks pretty much identical to me, but  then this is all SUBJECTIVE as in "the eye of the beholder". Having looked at quite a few of these models over the years from Sam and the new ones from Sam Model Tech, tells me is that there is a lot of variation coming out of that press that the builders are using!

Simon

PS: Roger. Thanks for the drawing, it is GREAT!

I glanced at it quickly at work but just looked again and it looks right. My mistake.

Butch

Beautiful.  Such classic lines.

I agree.  The E-7 and PA are among my favorite diesels.  Problem is, you cannot always depend on the drawings.  There are enough photos out there so that sooner or later these things get fixed.  The PA nose is the worst - the railroad drawings show it not tapered, but all photos show a pronounced taper.

Eric,

Can't argue that one, as they certainly nailed the E5. Almost makes me want to add the CB&Q!

Simon

Bob,  The Alco drawings show the taper on the nose, I have the actual Alco Erection Drawings that were used to build the PA's.  Very Large Drawings, and Key used them for the last run of PA's.  I don't know how much more accurate you can get then using the actual Erection Drawings used to produce the Full Size PA's.  I can't scan them as they are  about 4' by 8' and larger.  I have the complete PA set from Alco.

Roger

Photo of the CB&Q E5 at the IL Museum.  Take a look at that Headlight slope.

Do I have to get OCD about this inward taper thing on the front of the PA nose? Come on guys.. If you can not see the taper in this photo you must have a vision problem. 

So Roger - was I imagining it when Key almost produced a straight nose before you caught the error?  The story I heard was that they were using Alco drawings.

Getting old, I guess.

Nice photo! Really illustrates the point and value of looking at the prototype that's actually available.

Thanks for putting up here along with that set of plans; we really need to be seeing and looking at actual prototype plans and prototypes.

It should be noted here that the headlight and nose on the E5 are totally different than any other E or F unit built. A direct part of the customization era this locomotive was rolling piece of stainless steel art on wheels. Designed to follow the esthetics of the 9900 and Pioneer family of Shovelnose units. Originally the designers were asked to make the E5 a Shovelnose with the cab down low like its cousins. Obvious safety decisions were made and the cab was moved up high like the rest of the E units. The black stripes represent the windshield area of 9909 and the fake grills around the headlight were a direct homage to the Pioneer.

Over the years, battered and beaten in service and FRA required safety improvements demised the clean nose with grab irons and the stainless pilot finally was painted due to the coupler doors being replaced with regular steel not to mention the abuse. Thank God an E5 still exists today. It is interesting to note that the museum in Union has painted the stripes back to black and polished her up. Over the years her stainless steel panels have warped and wrinkled but she looks wonderful. I would hope the museum could build a set of skirts and replace the stainless panels on the pilot restoring it to its original intended look of 1940 by the EMC designers but the grabs would still be there. 

Thanks, I'm happy to post what I can, some of the drawings are so large it's impossible unless I have them reduced.  

Butch has a valid point about the headlight on the E8's and E9's. I see headlights on units that seen to not have any slope at all even thought the EMD drawings I have show a slope.  I think EMD may have just recycled a lot of the drawings, here is the EMD FL9 drawing with a 1956 date.

Bob,  A subject I really don't want to get into.  Key did not have the Alco drawings until I provided them after O Scale West a few years ago and using those drawings Key make sure the nose was correct on the production models.  I did most (maybe all) of the corrections on the PA's and was busy checking all the other details and never expected any nose but the one that has been produced for years.  The Pilot model may have had a Nose problem, but not the production models.  No, you're not getting old, not imagining anything.

Well, I think it is a cautionary tale for those who think that the manufacturers could easily get it right.  It is simply not that easy.  Here is the way I recall it:

The original Key PAs were almost perfect.  One might guess that either Key and MTH used the same drawings, or MTH copied Key, because MTH was very close.

Then Key started on the second run, and displayed it at OSW.  Dennis was horrified that they missed the nose, and I reported to you.  Gary said they had used Alco drawings, and you and I suggested a quick photo study.  It was fixed in an hour flat, but what if nobody had noticed?

That's the point - once a manufacturer has brought in production quantities it is too late.

This is something that takes a manufacturer willing to ask, and for those who study these things willing to take a look and offer advice.  Othrwise, we get inaccurate models.

Outside of the dirty condition of the 1:1 the production models are as good as its going to get with the current state of technology. Good Job ROGER! You did good and thanks to anyone who stepped up and suggested looking into any corrections! Bob, both you and Roger are a gift to us all in the community.

I agree. There was a lot of communication last year on the KEY CZ cars and I believe they will be better cars because of this. 

Something I re-learned from this thread is in most instances the discrepancies we see in a model are not due to a lack of knowledge or lack of concern on the part of the importer, but a lack of quality control by the builder. Something the importer has limited control over. They can ask, beg, and insist that certain features and qualities are built in to their models, but in the final analysis they get the model the builder builds. And they still have to maintain a relationship and their sanity in the process. I'm sure it's not an easy row to hoe.

Butch

Butch,  You hit the nail on the head, which is what I'll like to do some days, hit myself on the head with that hammer  .  It took 4 sets of corrected G.O.D.'s before I was able to get the builder to make all the red line corrections I keep making over and over and over.  They keep leaving the full width diaphragms on the drawings even though I sent then photo after photo of what I wanted.  I ever did all the drawings for the ends and it wasn't until the 4 set of G.O.D.'s that they finally drew the correct ends and diaphragms.  There is a real language problem with most of the builders.  The diaphragm issue was just the tip of the ice berg, issue after issue.  Even after we get all the G.O.D's correct the builder will change things without asking if what they are doing is correct or wanted.  Once these models are painted it's impossible to change anything with out totally stripping the models.  The first time the problems is usually seen is when Dave goes to Korea to inspect the models.  Sanity, we're talking about sanity here.  I think we're lucky to get the beautiful models we do.  

That aspect of "limited control" is one that is not well appreciated or even understood by too many.

But then once the product arrives, then they get all the free criticism and blame for every discrepancy,

Folks ought to be required to put a product in a box and sell it just once.  It's a real educational experience.

And BEAUTIFUL they are! 

@"The Key ATSF E1s have lots of modifications that were done in the 1940s added to them."

While I concur with a lot of the above about the biz being tough, I still find this bit of news disappointing.