Richard,  

Key was not going to do a re-run until I keep asking him to do so.  Lots of details had to be worked out, the least of which is getting the builder to agree to do it with the numbers that work for Key.  This re-run was only a sure thing last week with the Builder and Key, although I was 99% sure it was going to happen.   Did you tell you LHS that the model Key was delivering to him was not what you reserved.  I had one modeler that also didn't want the Modified E1 and I'm going to sell it for him, or maybe keep it.   He is getting one of the "As Built" E1's this Fall.  Everyone else is going to keep the Modified version and get an "As Built" Version.   I just hate to see you miss out on an engine that you wanted.

Believe me, I understand why you are not happy, as you know I didn't know the "As Built" E1 were not being built and neither did any of my customers.   I understand why the decision was made to built the version with all the mods as that's how they ran for most of their life, but that decision should have been made know to all of us.  

They will be here by December 2012, the builder is ready to start on them now and is only waiting for the final numbers.   They may be $50 more per unit because the builder has to rent that machine that does all the forming and it cost the same no matter how many models are being produce.  I'll be at OSW new year and will buy you a beer or two, maybe bring some of my son's Pipeworks Brewing beer with me.  Great Beer.  I would apologize for this if it was my fault, but I'm sure you understand it's not.  We just had a total failure to communicate as Paul Newman said in Cool Hand Luke.  

I would still like to do the SP Sunset Limited but can't get the reservations.  Maybe after the CZ trains show up next spring we can get some action.

I'll also really like to do more of the UP passenger cars, like the 3 Budd cars the UP had, and a few more UP Sleepers.

Roger

Roger,

Although addressed to Richard, I think that the availability of the "historic" as built E1 is a milestone.  I can't imagine it EVER being done as well as the coming release from Key.  I'm all in.  I love railroad history and this is one of the true historical milestones.

I thank you Roger and Richard for the "as built" E1 being manufactured, and if Dave looks in, thanks.  Superlatives can't capture the significance of this run.

Thanks to all of you.  I hope that Richard will accept the tribute.  He can probably take a lot of credit for the fact that this engine will be produced.

I agree about the Santa Fe E1 being a true historical engine and I believe that's why all my customers wanted that "As Built" version.  I wasn't going to get one myself but now that I have E1's, E3's, and E6's sitting on my desk I'm going to pick up a "As Built" set. I keep pestering Dave about doing re-run so I could get those E1's for my customers.  But now that the photos of these units are out there guys are coming out of the woodwork ordering all of the Early E units.  With good reason, they are the best yet.

Here is an E6 version that was not produced, but could be in the re-run.

That's amazing.  If that version were to be produced, Key may be the only manufacturer to ever produce every significant version of the E units that Santa Fe owned.

However, this is the version of #13 that I like best:

Last 2 pages have been very interesting and informative even to one that really has no great interest in owning such engines - lots of good information that wold be useful to be collated into some form and saved - particularly interesting about the various runs of the various models, numbers, importers, builders - might be nice to really know he details of what has been produced.  Lots of great pics, too!

I noticed in the pic that Gary posted of all the new E units the late E6s showed an A-B-A set I did not see this as an option on Keys website listings of the early E units, although they did list a FEC A-B-A set. Looking forward to see the E6 pics on the Key website perhaps FECs too.

Is this the photo you're looking at?  Gary just put another E6 A unit with that E6 AB set.

We can produce any combination of A's and B's you want.  If you want a single A we can do that, if you want an ABBB set we can do that, or an AAA set, or an BBB set.  What ever you want.  I didn't get around to posting the ATSF E6 Photos on the Web Site, later tonight or tomorrow.  I promise.  

I had to repost this as there is "Truth & insight" from Butch and MWB.  Thanks

Gee wiz Roger- you did good handling this thread!

Sorry man I was off running a VW show all weekend and did not get online. 

Those ATSF units are just WOW! 

WOW

Wow, yes, that line up of ATSF Es. Sohow much money do we have sitting on that table? an Ouch worth!

Phil

I must say those models are amazing.  I saw the detailed report Gary Schrader did.  Key is doing a great job.  I wonder how their work will compare if they tried doing modern diesels like ES44AC/DC or SD70ACe's.

That is the dilemma. There are those of us who might like to have this or that particular engine, but simply cannot justify ordering and hoping that what we get is what we wanted. It is great when you plunk your money down and get exactly what you were hoping for, but NOT so good (take Richard as an example) when it is something otherwise. This is not meant to an indictment of the Importer (who I'm sure wants every reservation correct), but a reality of the process as it is.

Simon

The SD-40-2 project will show how good the models are, with there newest drive and all the lighting should be excellent. Bear in mind Overland has not brought in a O scale model in the last 7 years and there latest Heritage units on order since last July are essently a continuation of the last run.I would expect them to be the same detail level as the earlier Heritage units. Modern diesels are usually bought in multiples in effect limiting the potential market, if Ebay is any indication previous modern F/P diesels are not bring close to the current preorder price on the latest diesels. Keys early and late Es I believe have a wider appeal.

Erik,

The Seaboard model is nothing less than spectacular!

Simon

SD40-2s are too old for me so I'm not in the market anyway but, Key has never done any hood unit diesels to compare anything.   OMI has not done any O Scale in 7 years but has continued in HO and N making probably the nicest modern brass locomotives on the market.  So, I don't think making such broad general statements Key vs OMI are valid.  At least in OMI's case they provide photographs up front of exactly what they are going to produce visually so you know what to expect when you put down your deposit. 

I don't think either importer has done a better job of staying on schedule or budget than the other.  And it is not unique to these two.  After listening or reading the tales from virtually all the importers it's pretty apparent all the Korean builders, while being excellent artisans and craftsmen, are either incompetent or corrupt business people.  They run their businesses just like defense contractors who are incapable of building a simple cube without numerous changes to the spec, all at the builders cost.

In my case this is my 3rd bad experience, with Key in the primary market.   I will just chalk it up to bad Karma and move on.  I'm still very happy with my one an only steam locomotive, a Key greyhound FEF-3 I got at OSW.  And I will still be looking for secondary market Key things on my wish list. 

While I would like several of the upcoming FTs I will pass because the only thing I am certain of now is that they will not be delivered close to the expected delivery date and will be at a much higher price than shown(>10% more when they do finally arrive), which I either pay or lose the deposit and, for something I can no longer trust what will show up as I expected.   I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could get the FT demonstrators wrong but who would have thought someone would have plated the sides of the 16 class ATSF F3s?

Richard

Richard,

Maybe you should try the importing game, I think you would change your attitude in a New York Minute.  Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me.  Give it a try and see if you can do better.  I don't think you would.  Lot of issues that the importers have very little control of.  

The Korean Builders are not incompetent or Corrupt.  And the prices for the FT's are set in stone, just like the PA's, Late E Units, and the Early E units were.  There was not a price increase on any of them, where do you come up with that garbage about the FT's will be at a much higher price than shown(>10% more when they do finally arrive).  Key does not sit the retail price, only the dealer net, and Dave have never changed that price once he put it out to the dealers.  As far as the delivery date go, Dave does everything possible on his end to see that his advertised delivery date is met, lots of stuff happens that delay the models, almost 99% of it out of his hands.

So, Richard, give it a try.  It's very easy to sit where you are and throw rocks.  I told you we would have the AT&SF E1's exactly "AS BUILT" this December.  But you are determined to cut your nose off to spite your face.  Have at it.  You're hurting no one but yourself.

You do have a reason to be unhappy with the ATSF E1's as they are not what you expected.  I had one customer (out of 6) that also was not happy and he is getting the "As Built" version.  I didn't make him take the produced E1, he's disappointed that he didn't get what he expected and will have to wait until December for his E1's, but he's not taking your path.  Maybe you need to pick a better dealer.  It's not your fault the E1 you expected wasn't what was produced.   Your LHS (I know who it is) should have refunded your deposit and put the model in their showcase for sale.   I would never force anyone to take a model they didn't want, I explained to all my E1 customers what happened and why.  

All but one bought the E1's and then ordered the "As Built" version.  Not a single one of then threw rocks at me like you are throwing at Key.   

Roger: Are yo going to post the "One of a Kind " N&W E6 on the Key website?

Stephen

Stephen,

Yes, I will post them, wanted to give you credit for the photos if you took them.  Great photos and unique engine.  

Roger,

I have absolutely no doubt I could not.  Not the issue.

How do I now make an informed decision as a consumer about spending a lot of money when I don't know the dealer net or any pricing information until I am handed a box and a bill, have no clue what a reasonable delivery date might be and now don't even really know what might show up?  Even you said you expected the E1s to show as delivered and so did all your customers.  THAT's the part that gets to me.  Find me one person who expected them to show up the way they did other than Dave and Gary. How good they look or were done is completely and totally irrelevant.  If they had shown up as delivered how many people would be saying "hey, where are all the things missing they had?" requesting additional ones as modified?  I'd bet not one.

Say I reserve a set of FT GM demos and they show up modified in Southern paint, because that is how they spent most of their life?  And they're beautiful and well done, Take 'em or leave 'em, sans deposit.  But oh, if you give us another deposit for some amount of time we'll do them as GM demos for a slight price increase?  If Home Depot or Walmart did something like that to you tell me you wouldn't be saying bait and switch?

How many months ago did you say on this forum the sell price for the early ATSF Es would remain generally at about $3400 for an AB, was it even 6?  Is my LHS lying to me that dealer net was over $3200 with shipping to him or do you sell them at ~5% markup?  The increase alone from $3400 I expected to $3800 is a lot of money to me.  I ain't in the top 1%, not even close.

If you have a dealer net price list much lower than $3200 you would be willing to share with me I'd like to see it. I have absolutely no problem taking it to my LHS and calling him on it.  I REALLY don't like being lied to.

I may have to try something because it seems that is the only way I will ever get decent 6-6-4s

Richard

Stephen,

Your photos of the "One of a Kind" N&W E6 are posted on Key's website under "More Early E Photos.  Thanks for the photos.

Everyone,

I just Posted the Late 40's & 50's AT&SF E6 Photos on Key's web site.  

Richard,

 All my customers have known from the very beginning that my price on an AB Early E AB set was $3,600, AA set $3,800.  Never said anything else to anyone.  The builder raised his price by $200/unit over the Late E units and that increase had to be be passed on to the customers.  The Late E units Price from me was $3,200 for an AB set, $3,400 for an AA set. If I ever said anything else it would have been years ago before I knew about the price increase from the Builder.  Richard, we talking about "Trains" here, talking about "model trains", not a life or death situation.  You've already had an offer from someone to buy your E1's at your price so what exactly is your problem.  Yes, "What we've got here is (a) failure to communicate" on Key's part, but no one was injured or killed here.  It cost Paul Newman his life in "Cool Hand Luke".  You're got your panties in a wad over a model.  You act like this was done on purpose just to spite you, it wasn't.  Go for that 6-6-4, do want a list of builders, there aren't many left.  Put your ads out and start getting all the endless data required to produce your model.  And announce an expected delivery date and don't miss it for any reason, bring those models in on time even if they're not finished or have mistakes that need fixing as you might have a "Richard" with a reservation who will rake you over the coals because he didn't get his model on the day you promised him he would.  And don't make any mistakes, "Richard" will never let you hear the end of it.  Except "Richard" doesn't have a clue what it took for you to produce the model.

Richard Posted:

How do I now make an informed decision as a consumer about spending a lot of money when I don't know the dealer net or any pricing information until I am handed a box and a bill, have no clue what a reasonable delivery date might be and now don't even really know what might show up? 

Richard, your LHS knew years ago what the dealer net was, Dave told all his dealers about the price increase a very long time ago, so you LHS should have given you a retail price when you reserved the models.  The Dealer Net is really none of your business.  Are you saying you didn't have a clue about what you were going to pay until the day you went to pick up your horribly disfigured Santa Fe E1's.  That's what you said above, you really do need to find another dealer if that's true.  The Early E units were delivered in a reasonable  time, you are the only one complaining about any of this, what does that say about you?  As I said, you have your panties in a wad over a Model Train.  

I find it uncomfortable wanting to buy something and being told it will be this much and take this much time. Worse buying it sight unseen like the time Halmark brought in the first run of SD 24s  from Korea that I had ordered 4. They were awful. So, I can see where some feel uneasy also about this new method of buying brass.

I had a SP mogul on order from a brass importer that imports at a 1/3 the price of Key and was told it would take so much time. I was comfortable with the numbers, however the time stretched out and out and out till I removed my request for the unit, I could have died  from waiting in my 60's,  and also the price had increased some 10-20% over that period.

Now, buying a Key model.I realize they produce very quality models, today standards, and the trouble they go through importing them from countries, finding great builders for a good price, and all the complications involved. But for me, like Richard, find it hard to buy without some sort of advertised retail price as a guide and knowledge it will stay there. Like Richard, I am not rich and don't put a 2 year hobby budget into one train unless it is the cat's meow, know the advertised price, and I would like to see and hold it. 2 out of three ain't bad.

Like others too, i would love to see some new models of modern diesels as they are big and muscular. Not no GP 20s or Sd40s.

Example, My mother had a plumber come over to her house to repair a leak on a sunday.

It was old gal. pipe and the son in law had already dug down to expose the problem. Plumber getting paid already  for his trip so he says $500 to cap it off. He states he doesn't know how long it will take so that is the price. She says yes as she is in for the $75 trip already. 20 minutes later he is collecting a check and gone for unscrewing a piece of pipe and screwing in a plug. take it to the oldies or those  who don't know better. Not knowing all the angles puts one at a disavantage. She believed him not knowing what it woudl take to get the job done but she needed the water stopped.  Not knowing the facts hurts one.

She wanted the leaked fixed and we want a model at a price and condition. Sight unseen.

Phill

The analogy is slightly flawed.  Fixing the plumbing is not a discretionary hobby - it is more like a visit to the doctor's office.  

While I see the point - wanting perfection in a model closing in on a couple grand each - I also see what Roger is getting at.  You will not get perfection at these prices and these quantities.  It cannot happen.

If you order sight unseen, and pay your money up front, you are taking a risk.  You must determine if you can personally handle that risk.  From the photos, I am going to guess that the average purchaser will win this time around.

Opinion.

I have stayed out of this thread for a lot of good reasons but if I may...

Richard- I understand your frustration in this, I too have had some disappointment; I added it up to the old saying, "It is what we have". O scale is tough to model in, models are often rare and impossible to find; furthermore many depending on your road have never been made forcing us to scratch the models. For most of us myself included its a choice I have made based on available models and available funds.

I am very saddened you were hurt by this E1 thing.  I believe if you were specific on what you wanted (told Roger or Dave) and not assumed you would have been built the version you wanted.  I really wanted a set of E1's really bad and had to give them up for reasons not important but if they showed in a late version I would have been OK since I model the late 40's early 50's.

Richard I really enjoy your posts and your valuable opinions and knowledge; it is all good; and It looks like Roger is trying very hard to help you with your situation. If Dave says they will be here they will. And you of all people know the frustrations of working with the Orient. If you want to pass on your E1's I would; I would give my left hand to buy it.. but I am fresh out...   I have been told the line forms to the left of waiting buyers for these models. 

I hate to say it but Roger is right, if you can do better by all means.. may you please. It is like smart-phones, the iPhone is NOT the only one.. we need competition it is how we get better products! I seriously doubt the O scale hobby can support a plastic run of these models like HO. I would love a plastic version of the early E units but the cost required to every type and every little fussy design like the E5 would be cost prohibitive- no impossible on 2500-5000 buyers. Frankly it is a miracle we have any of these at all. what a miracle it is too... All I can say despite the few disappointments is thank you Dave!  The man is a living legend in our hobby.  

Its all good Richard, were all friends here, and remember buddy they are just toy trains!

Phil,

Everyone of my customers for the last 5 years has known exactly what my retail price was when they reserved the models. Dave sets the Dealer net when he sends out the project details to all his dealers.  The Dealers are free to set what ever retail price the chose, I can show you 2 dealer that are selling these Early E units for much more then I did, much more.   Dave has never changed his price after he published the dealer net to the dealers, you and Richard are both asking for something that has always been done on Keys end, and my end.  I've never changed my price after the fact, why would I?  Dave never changed his Dealer Net.  

Also Key has never asked for a deposit so the modeler really has nothing at risk, Key does, and we dealers do.  I would never expect any of my customers to buy a model they didn't want, I have a E1 set now that one customers didn't want for the same reason Richard didn't, and I'm going to keep it.  What a Beautiful model, and I also going to get the "As Built" E1.

Roger

First of all, Erik is correct, I hope we are all still friends and they are just toy trains but in this case, too me, just like a Ferrari is a toy car. 

I don't think anyone is expecting perfection, certainly not me.  And I have not said one negative word about the models themselves.  They are fantastic.  But that is completely irrelevant.  I did expect to be get what was originally described 2+ years ago when I plunked down $600 in deposits without having to buy it twice.  If I had been offered the opportunity to roll the reservation over to the as delivered version we would not be having this discussion.  But it got dumped on me as the customer to buy and deal with offloading the modified ones to come up with the money to get what I wanted and expected in the first place.  Unlike all the people who seem to have have lots of money to keep the modified ones AND get the as delivered I do not.  Even with Roger's kind offer to sell them at the National it is a hassle I as a customer should not have to put up with!

I notice there are two different types of CB&Q E5s.  Were there two different descriptions?  What if there had been only one description and if it had shown up in the later red nose version and everyone expected the black nose version or vice versa.  If a year ago or whenever Key had said there is an as delivered and modified version of the ATSF E1s please choose which you want, again we would not be having this discussion.

And FWIW, I do admit I find this do it yourself stuff annoying.  I do network engineering all day long and deal with people complaining about the Network/Internet being slow or screwed up somehow and I would never consider telling any of them if they don't like try running it themselves.

Richard

Richard,

I bet you had to pay CA sales tax on that E1, If you had reserved it with me, no Deposit, no sales tax, and no taking what you didn't order or want.  Maybe if you had reserved it with me we would have had more then one conversation about the fact that you wanted nothing but the "As Built" E1 and I would have made sure that version was built.  So, as you can see this whole problem is your fault because you didn't reserve your E1 with me.

LOL !!  

I glad we finally figured out who's fault this AT&SF E1 issue was.  

Roger

In the past he has discounted brass ~10% to cover the tax.  So it would have come out even.

Richard,

If you paid #3,600.00 for the E1 set and "he" discounted it 10% ($360.00) "he" lost money on the deal.  Hard to believe "he" did that.

Roger

$3800.

I most certainly do not want him to loose money nor do anything improper.  I like having an LHS around and that is why I offer to get things through him first even if it costs me a little more.

Richard

Just to clear the air a little, I've known Richard for a few years, met him at "O Scale West" and consider him a friend.  I expect we will remain friends after all of this.  He has every right to be upset about the E1 situation, it shouldn't have happened and Dave and I are going to do everything possible to make sure there is not another 

"What we've got here is (a) failure to communicate"

Roger

Roger (and all),

Thank you for the comments / education.

I have not seen the model yet (to understand how it was constructed), but as a lot of the changes modeled appear to effect the pilot / the “trim piece” above the pilot, and assuming that I cannot sell this version, do you think that Dave could add an "extra" pilot / “trim piece” above the pilot to the new production run, so that I could purchase it / pay someone to "back date” a model ???

Bob

Some of the retrofits would not be that difficult. A couple would be risky PITAs.

The biggest problem is the number light above the windshield.  Removing that will leave a large square hole in the brass shell that would be very difficult to fill and finish because of all the compound curves.  If it weren't for this one thing, while I would still be perturbed, would probably keep mine and try as your suggesting.  I am currently trying to do something similar on a brass passenger car and even after completely removing the finish it is a royal PITA which I have not been successful at yet!

I have no clue how difficult removing and refinishing the bezel around the headlight would be as I have no idea how it was done.  My guess is it's a brass casting that would leave a too large hole if you removed it so you would have to file it smooth and spot refinish which could be a PITA.

If you look at the pics of the E3 coupler cover in the other thread even the builder had a tough time coming up with good flush coupler cover.  If Dave couldn't come up with a bolt on replacement as you suggest I think I would try and get one from a 3rd Rail E7 without the coupler cutout and just replace it (assuming a similar mounting methodology) anyway.  A working front coupler is not something "I/me/myself and" that really does anything for me.  Otherwise the pilot steps could be easily removed and fill/finish the holes. 

Moving the bell and horns would leave one or two small holes in the roof to fill and finish.  I really don't think I would even bother with this.  I don't have any decent as delivered roof pics to see how different they are.

Relighting the original number boards would be a job but as I don't think it requires doing anything other than clearing and numbering the existing painted holes and moving the lighting from over the windshield it's not risky to the model.

Removing the large 2 from the sides difficulty is depending on what type of clear coat is over the plating.  If none then easy easy.  Otherwise, spot refinishing the removed clear coat could be a PITA.

Richard

I would strongly caution anyone trying to change anything on these models.  

It would be impossible to match the paint.  The E1 version Key built as they ran for most of their life just has too many details that would have to be changed.  When we've found problems before any finished models leave Korea that require fixing the models have to be totally stripped, fixed, and repainted.  Even the builder can not fix any details and match that beautiful paint on these models.  

The Santa Fe changed the pilot coupler doors within weeks of receiving the engines, put those 4 slots in them.  There is no real way without the records to know when all the other details were added to each engine.  I have those photos taken in 1938, 39, and 1940 so some time line can be see on some of the E1's.  

Here is what Gary posted:

The E1 A and B Units were modeled representing the late 1940s through early 1950s before they were rebuilt into E8m's in 1952-1953. From right after delivery in 1937 until about 1942, there were minor cosmetic changes to these units every year. Modeling anything before 1942 would have restricted their accuracy to a year or less. After 1942, few changes happened except for the wartime headlight shields during WWII. The post delivery changes incorporated into these models are as follows:

1. The first two variants on the coupler cover doors were replaced by a raised box with the doors on it.
2. Pilot steps were added.
3. A pilot hatch was added to allow access to the passenger steam line.
4. A small number board was added over the windshields.
5. The small nose number boards were painted over.
6. A large engine number was added to the side of the A Unit.
7. The smaller air horn was replaced by a second large Leslie Tyfon air horn pointing to the rear.
8. The bell was moved to the top of the roof behind the air horns.
9. Small wind wings were added to the side of the cab just ahead of the side windows.
10. Cut lever handles were added to the pilot.

Roger

Gee, If I had $10 for every reply to this topic I'd be half way to owning a new E unit.

Oh, Erik, nice art work on the pictures on keys web site.!

Phil 

Holy cow:

One *****es like **** because they were not right for what they ordered, and now we

are talking about removing and leaving holes and painting and bending brass to a contour. This is insane.

Sell them and wait to get the ones you want.

marty

Thanks Phil!